Duality Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 wow I can only assume that the person writing this is either uneducated, unmotivated to do good research, or just a paid advocates for NPs....... none the less it is a bummer I honestly think a well trained PA is BETTER then an NP in the chronic care realm as we get more of the hard sciences and more exposure to specialty medicine during our training.... but alas that is just me..... one lonely practice owner caring for 200 of the sickest home bound seniors in the area..... what do I know.... (oh yeah and running my own practice......) My guess is that she got all of her information from only one source....NP or read a bunch of blogs. Back home the entire track through RN- BSN-NP, no chemistry or gross anatomy is required and most of them here got their NP online :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avaya24 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 As President of PAFT, I sent the below email to Women's Health magazine in response to the above article. Keep in mind, this is a publication that glosses it's cover with article tags that include "Your Sexiest Body - Want In?" and "Hot & Happt! 50 Ways to Blast Fat & Feel Amazing!" I'm not sure they are interested in a flogging from stiff medical professionals. My angle is to engage them to CORRECT their error with a larger feature article that is generated from the PA community. That said, the more flogging they get from individual PAs, the greater the impact. Keep sending those letters - flood their inbox!! That's what creates change! Greetings, I’m interested to know where you gathered your information that shaped the article describing Physician Assistants, or PAs, in the most recent edition of Women’s Health magazine. As President of PAs for Tomorrow (PAFT), a progressive advocacy organization representing PAs across the United States, I’m hopeful that you will be willing to hear the message that you need to dig deeper. In a few short paragraphs, you simply got it wrong and I’m hoping that in the interest of accurate reporting, you would be willing to correct your errors and feature our profession more accurately in a future edition. PAs are highly trained professionals who are licensed in every state in the nation to practice medicine. We deliver quality health care in every specialty one might find physicians. While many PAs do work closely with physicians, we collaborate very autonomously in the majority of settings. What that means is that the majority of PAs see their own patients, diagnose disease (of all complexity, by the way), develop treatment plans and implement that care for patients in the interest of better health. In the 20+ years I’ve practiced medicine, mostly in primary care and OB/GYN, I’ve had the delight of developing longstanding relationships with patients built on trust, respect and the confidence that I’m going to do my best to provide quality care. Frankly, I’ve not felt so misunderstood and misrepresented than when I read your article. This article undermines everything that I am as a professional. I’m certain the goal of the author was to clarify rather than confuse your readers, but the tongue-in-cheek, cavalier attempt to portray the profession has done just that. There is much change happening in the health care industry and I understand why there might be confusion among the lay public about the various medical professionals they might encounter when they seek medical services. That’s why it is imperative that any given profession be represented accurately. Your publication failed in that endeavor. Please be willing to correct that mistake by featuring the PA profession in a more accurate light. Comparing us to a sous chef, suggesting that we are identified by a short coat and simply dole out routine care is a gross misrepresentation of what a PA’s role is in healthcare today. As a quality publication who wishes to accurately represent yourself, you can do better. Please contact me. I have a few great ideas and angles to better educate your readers about the variety of healthcare providers they might encounter when they seek medical services. Regards, Nichole Bateman, MPAS, PA-C PAFT President PAs for Tomorrow www.pasfortomorrow.org 918-542-0105 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paula Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Thanks, Nichole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shazzy1228 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Do NP's seriously only do 700 hours of clinical training? How much are you really getting from such a short amount of time? And these people are allowed to prescribe? Okay I don't like insulting other professions, but that is some bullcrap. Now, some of the programs are online. I really hope NP hopefuls will all at least consider practicing as RN's BEFORE going into an NP program. Outrageous. And who the heck takes anything Women's Health says seriously? Their sex advice never works. Well at least not for me. I still haven't any explosive orgasms yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceBanner Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 sent to PAFT president. Thank you. People are just making sh!t up now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 28, 2015 Moderator Share Posted July 28, 2015 Do NP's seriously only do 700 hours of clinical training? How much are you really getting from such a short amount of time? And these people are allowed to prescribe? Okay I don't like insulting other professions, but that is some bullcrap. Now, some of the programs are online. I really hope NP hopefuls will all at least consider practicing as RN's BEFORE going into an NP program. Outrageous. And who the heck takes anything Women's Health says seriously? Their sex advice never works. Well at least not for me. I still haven't any explosive orgasms yet. well, some get 500 hrs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marinejiujitsu Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 I'm OK with NPS fighting for a voice and a better autonomy, but when they have to make PAs look bad because we get more training and take up a lot of the same roles, that is f'd up. That's more something high school girls would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I think the ongoing disparate issues with NP vs PA are multifactorial: We have a national board certification and a standard of education throughout all schools. I am not aware of a certifying board for NPs or even specialty certification or retesting timeframes like PAs have. Board certified physicians have to recert every 10 years in their respective specialties. Some NP programs are as short as 9 weeks and others 2 yrs. Clinical rotations aren't regulated that I can see for an NP. I have had NP students approach me (I am a PA) for rotations and tell me they only need 80 hours of family practice - 80 HOURS. PA students are trained on the medical model and do learn more procedures such as suturing and such. I have not met any NPs in surgery in 25 years. When NPs go to legislation they take the WHOLE Nursing lobby with them which makes them much larger, stronger and more well funded despite that they are not the same - RN and NP. NPs keep pushing the independent practice rights with 100% reimbursement same as MD and that will never fly as long as MD groups have anything to say about it. I was told 25 yrs ago that I did not need a Master's Degree - that my NCCPA was the only thing that counted. Now NPs are pushing the DNP model and demanding full reimbursement based on having a doctorate. With all that said - the overwhelming majority of NPs I work with in the NW are collegial and we work well together. In Texas, it was adversarial and not cooperative. So, maybe regional differences??? I chose PA and have loved it and lived it and sometimes hated it for 25 years. We need to educate the public, perspective students and our patients about what we are and what we do and how good we are. No need to disparage anyone else but we should certainly right wrongs and keep a polite presentation. Just my two cents Question of the day If you have to put your two cents in but it is a penny for your thoughts, who makes the other penny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetMeOuttaThisMess Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Never found the NPs that I've worked directly with to be adversarial in N. Texas. That said, they tend to come to me for any general medical questions which are not specific to their area of practice. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 wow I can only assume that the person writing this is either uneducated, unmotivated to do good research, or just a paid advocates for NPs....... none the less it is a bummer I honestly think a well trained PA is BETTER then an NP in the chronic care realm as we get more of the hard sciences and more exposure to specialty medicine during our training.... but alas that is just me..... one lonely practice owner caring for 200 of the sickest home bound seniors in the area..... what do I know.... (oh yeah and running my own practice......) Probably a paid advocate for NP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 28, 2015 Moderator Share Posted July 28, 2015 Probably a paid advocate for NP. yup, look at the glowing terms for NPs when compared with PAs in this article. disgusting pandering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febrifuge Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Out in the "real world," just about every NP I've known and worked with has been great. Smart, thoughtful, motivated, caring. Only a very few have been duds, but honestly the proportion is probably about the same as with PAs... or MDs for that matter. The issue seems to be at the 'group culture' level, which is essentially marketing, when it comes down to it. That well-oiled machine for organizing and political action can be such a force for good, but it can also perpetuate some frankly weird and potentially even dangerous mis-information. Back in the day, when I was an ER tech, I was debating my options. The staff docs and residents were always helpful and cool, but the veteran ER nurses were the people I could always count on to a) know their sh#t, and b) provide valuable real-world perspective. They tended to be capable and "wicked smaht" people, but also didn't have that starry-eyed reverence for the noble calling of medicine that gets inculcated into a lot of MD training culture. So these were people I respected, and listened to. They told me, "yeah, NP would be great if you already had a nursing degree, but I think if I had to take a Nursing Theory class again, I'd kill myself. You shouldn't put yourself through that. You have to un-learn a bunch of nonsense once you finish, if you want to be effective in the ER." One of those ER nurses from my tech days recently joined my group, and she does Urgent Care now that she has her NP. She's still easing into being an independent clinician, but she's going to be great. Even so, she asked for a lot of help when she was new. I remember in my surgery rotation, the one where I saw a boatload of trauma and even got to do a few things that only the "good students" get trusted to do, there were some NP students on their surgery rotation too... that's what I was told, anyway, when I asked "hey, who are those three over there, standing behind that masking-tape line 10 feet behind us?" It was silly. And just today I got an email about precepting an NP student. Apparently, sometime between early September and mid-December, she needs 100 hours of contact time for this 2nd-year rotation. This is a program at a state school, too. So, I don't know. I envy the NPs' ability to achieve goals, and get state laws bent to their considerable will. I don't envy the training they get. On the other hand, after a couple of years out in the world, it seems like the ones who care to learn are able to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 28, 2015 Moderator Share Posted July 28, 2015 agree with all of above from Feb, good common sense stuff as usual. we also precept NP students occasionally for their 80 hr ER "rotation", alongside the PA students doing 250 hrs+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainer Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Article is garbage. The typical NP student lacks the qualifications to matriculate or be successful in PA or MD/DO school. Basic pre-medical science training is not required in nursing/NP programs They have less than 1/2 the didactic training. Less than 1/2 the clinical training. All their education is taught at a level that minimizes and dilutes basic science. In addition, their limited education is padded with nursing theory courses. Online education. They have less training and qualifications than any other recognized healthcare provider, period. They are grossly under qualified. Award inflated degrees. They only thing they're good at is politics. Time to write a letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalon Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Similar to E's experience, I just precepted a NP student. She was required to do 50 hours for her OB/GYN rotation. My program's requirement was approximately 200 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 29, 2015 Moderator Share Posted July 29, 2015 our np students also don't do nights or weekends. we were told they could only do day shifts m-f so they can work at their regular jobs nights and weekends. 80 hrs is not a rotation, it's an orientation. most of them get to do a few lac repairs and I+Ds, but no reductions, ingrown toenails, procedural sedations, LPs, etc. in 80 hrs you can figure out how to get to the bathroom and the cafeteria and the names of a few of the staff.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk732 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 My last civilian rotation in second year I was in a rural ER near Toronto when one of my classmates introduces me to the NP student there...first words out of her mouth when she was introduced to him was "Oh, you're one of those guys trying to take our jobs away" - many I'm sure have heard of the asshattery that was going on with the Registered Nurses Association of Ontario a few years back. Anyway, my buddy tells me that his preceptor called the two of them over to look at a chest XRay - NP student looked at it and said it was completely normal...Marc looked at it and said there was a pneumothorax with a 70-80% collapse. The preceptor suggested to the NP student that she start learning some basic radiology if she expected to get a passing grade. She was much politer to us after that. After all that, 95% of the NP's I've worked with have been great...but I sometimes have to wonder about how much they're really learning before they're let loose on society with their licences and Rx numbers. SK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted July 29, 2015 Moderator Share Posted July 29, 2015 but why on earth would a primary care provider need to be able to read a pneumothorax? that's not part of primary care medicine...... oh geez I forget its ALL MEDICINE and patients and diseases don't do what they are told..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paula Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Nor do patients do what the textbooks teach!!!! I have been asked by fellow NP colleagues to read their EKGs and Xrays, and check on derm puzzlers. I ask them about wound care and gyn stuff. I hate women's health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonlegit Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Out in the "real world," just about every NP I've known and worked with has been great. Smart, thoughtful, motivated, caring. Only a very few have been duds, but honestly the proportion is probably about the same as with PAs... or MDs for that matter. The issue seems to be at the 'group culture' level, which is essentially marketing, when it comes down to it. That well-oiled machine for organizing and political action can be such a force for good, but it can also perpetuate some frankly weird and potentially even dangerous mis-information. Back in the day, when I was an ER tech, I was debating my options. The staff docs and residents were always helpful and cool, but the veteran ER nurses were the people I could always count on to a) know their sh#t, and b) provide valuable real-world perspective. They tended to be capable and "wicked smaht" people, but also didn't have that starry-eyed reverence for the noble calling of medicine that gets inculcated into a lot of MD training culture. So these were people I respected, and listened to. They told me, "yeah, NP would be great if you already had a nursing degree, but I think if I had to take a Nursing Theory class again, I'd kill myself. You shouldn't put yourself through that. You have to un-learn a bunch of nonsense once you finish, if you want to be effective in the ER." One of those ER nurses from my tech days recently joined my group, and she does Urgent Care now that she has her NP. She's still easing into being an independent clinician, but she's going to be great. Even so, she asked for a lot of help when she was new. I remember in my surgery rotation, the one where I saw a boatload of trauma and even got to do a few things that only the "good students" get trusted to do, there were some NP students on their surgery rotation too... that's what I was told, anyway, when I asked "hey, who are those three over there, standing behind that masking-tape line 10 feet behind us?" It was silly. And just today I got an email about precepting an NP student. Apparently, sometime between early September and mid-December, she needs 100 hours of contact time for this 2nd-year rotation. This is a program at a state school, too. So, I don't know. I envy the NPs' ability to achieve goals, and get state laws bent to their considerable will. I don't envy the training they get. On the other hand, after a couple of years out in the world, it seems like the ones who care to learn are able to do so. This is a great post. In my time spent "in", I wholeheartedly agree. I definitely identify more with the get it done, common sense attitude of the really good nurses. The way I see it, however, is its much much rarer for nurses to think big picture. I mean this absolutely without any sense of superiority, and I'm not a provider either FWIW. What I observe though, is nurses (even the experienced ones) who don't seem to understand the "ownership" angle of their patients. Its too easy to pick on the still learning residents for their clunky orders and slow workups. On the other hand, its a very difficult mindset to truly "diagnose", "rule-out", admit, or discharge. Hell, for all the chest pain we do in EM, most of the floor staff doesn't acknowledge or remember 75% of the differential. Its not as easy as nursing staff believes it to be. I see this more often in NPs than PAs. It seems to be an issue with education. Conversely, I see some of the lesser-abled EM docs who can sit around and not make a decision, hung up on a technicality somewhere. So i'm interested to get into school and try for myself. I suppose its why great providers arent just falling out of trees all over. In addition, I routinely say that there should be some sort of leadership training in med school. Its downright painful for some docs to get their legs beneath them leading a group of workers, and some never do. Unfortunately, I see this far too often in all kinds of circumstances in the hospital. I wonder if this will ever lead to tension for me, should I become a PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febrifuge Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 EDIT: I'm going to start a new thread for this, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcyJ Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 My sister is a NP and has already stated more than once that she is jealous of the training that PA programs offer that she was not offered in her program. This article blows my mind. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcyJ Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Do NP's seriously only do 700 hours of clinical training? How much are you really getting from such a short amount of time? And these people are allowed to prescribe? Okay I don't like insulting other professions, but that is some bullcrap. Now, some of the programs are online. I really hope NP hopefuls will all at least consider practicing as RN's BEFORE going into an NP program. Outrageous. And who the heck takes anything Women's Health says seriously? Their sex advice never works. Well at least not for me. I still haven't any explosive orgasms yet. My sister is a NP and recently graduated (and certified) and began working. One thing that I have noticed so far about the differences in training is that their programs are usually specialty oriented. So, they have less options for specialty upon graduation. My sister's degree is a Master's in Acute Care: adult/gerontology Nurse Practitioner. So, this would explain the clinical hours discrepancy. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 3, 2015 Moderator Share Posted August 3, 2015 My sister is a NP and recently graduated (and certified) and began working. One thing that I have noticed so far about the differences in training is that their programs are usually specialty oriented. So, they have less options for specialty upon graduation. My sister's degree is a Master's in Acute Care: adult/gerontology Nurse Practitioner. So, this would explain the clinical hours discrepancy. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk yes and no. some generalist pas get more hours in a single specialty than an entire np program. I had basically the same hrs in FP (500) as many fnp programs but also had 2500 hrs in 7 other specialties. in fact, I had enough hrs to qualify for ALL of the following: FNP, ACNP, RNFA, ENP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcyJ Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 yes and no. some generalist pas get more hours in a single specialty than an entire np program. I had basically the same hrs in FP (500) as many fnp programs but also had 2500 hrs in 7 other specialties. in fact, I had enough hrs to qualify for ALL of the following: FNP, ACNP, RNFA, ENPVery interesting! Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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