PA lifestyle?

[Boatswain2PA]

I'm tired of seeing people say "just go to med school." Just because you regret your life decisions doesn't mean others will.

I regret many of my life decisions, but odds are I'm twice as old as you are. Care to learn from mine, or make the same mistakes??

Definitive PA vs. Medical School Decision Tree

 

 

yes >>>> Go to medical school.

"I identify strongly with this video"

no >>>>> PA or med school.

 

 

 

I'm hoping this is hyperbole, otherwise you are going to be in trouble when you get "in the field" if you actually believe this.

What "glass ceiling" are you talking about? And you definitely inflated the average salary of a physician. And remember that medical school debt will also go way up due to interest during residency. I think your numbers overall were very generous toward physicians. And any guess about the demise of lateral mobility is just that: a guess.

I don't think anyone disagrees that most physicians will make more money in the long run. But I'd also like to enjoy the money I do make while I'm young and free from the responsibilities of a family with children. Also, 110k being the 95th percentile seems low...Just a Google search reveals that the top 10% make over 120k, but that may be misinformation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Honestly, I just don't think it's right to have weathered/disgruntled PAs discouraging college students from entering their profession on this forum. Based on recent job satisfaction studies, these are the minority in the PA profession. People choose medical school and PA school for different reasons. I would hate to see good candidates for the profession turned away based on the opinions of a few.

I was going to reply to this, but then I saw EMED's reply, and I can't do better than that. So, just re-read what he said to see where you are wrong. I didn't inflate anything. I make at about 95 percentile of PA salary practicing emergency medicine, yet I make about HALF of what the average emergency physician makes.

 

And I am not a disgruntled PA. I love my job, and I love my income. But then again, I am an "old school" PA who did twenty years in the military, I"m already retired once, and THEN I went to PA school. I'm not a 25 year old kid who is looking at the easy route to medicine (PA) or that long hard route (MD). I have the age, and life experience, to say "take the long route, it'll be worth it."

 

Lastly, the lack of lateral mobility is coming. The nail in that coffin, like it or not, was the CAQ's. Learn your history and then you can extrapolate into the future.

I have a feeling that the 'no residency' aspect of PA/NP education goes a long way towards maintaining the work vs family relationship.

Again, short term gain (no residency) for long term loss (twice the salary, autonomy, etc)

[ventana]

just finished a 60 hour week 

with the t-day holiday

 

for the likes of $120k per year

 

Docs in the ER make this with two 12 hour shifts

 

PCP/FP docs make about 180k for full time so this would be 2/3 times about.....

 

and for me it is 1.5 time.....

 

yes I love being a PA, but on the more experienced end (was solo coverage for a 160 bed nursing facility this week, sent to ER, hospice, sectioned, managed CHF, PNA, diabetic gatroparesis, pleurX tubes, work up adult FTT....... and on an on..... all for likely 1/2 to 1/3 of the doc........

 

Heck even medicare thinks I am worth less

[DaniDoRight]

I just want to say I really hate this thread. Being a Physician Assistant has never been a back up plan for me. I'm 24 and I have two kids, but also a super supportive husband who is good with either option. And my choice has always been PA because at this point in my life I'm good with the salary, the tough schooling, and the inability to have complete autonomy. I wanted to get done with PA school, join the guard, find some way out there clinic that mixed primary and urgent care, and be happy . I was good working towards that goal till this topic popped up. Now I'm sitting here wondering if 30-40 years from now Ill regret not going to med school. 

[ItsJustAFleshWound]

 

 

Now I'm sitting here wondering if 30-40 years from now Ill regret not going to med school.

Was just a matter of time that these thoughts, questions and feelings would surface. It is what it is.

 

 

[Joelseff]

We (the PAs who are chiming in) aren't posting to scare amyone nor are we (from what I can gather) disgruntled. We are just offering another point of view that, from the looks of a lot of posts on this forum, get overlooked or brushed off too easily. You SHOULD consider med school. I did too. I was MUCH older than most pre-pas today when I started PA school. I was also the bread winner for my family of four since we decided to have my wife stay home with the little ones while they were little (though my wife re entered the workforce about a year before I entered PA school). I left a very lucrative job and had 22k hours of HCE when I got in. For me it was the most logical/feasible way to practice Medicine. Not a back up. My backup was RT--->apply to PA school again.

 

Don't get me wrong, my job is far from perfect but I don't hate it. The glass ceiling though is obvious. Although I work with a great SP, I'm still a PA at the end of the day and there is a visible chasm between professions. I won't rehash them but E, Boats and the others have stated them well. Just saying, if I were 24, with good support (financial et al) at home. Med school would have been a very real opportunity. It just didn't happen that way. Best wishes in all your endeavors.

[ventana]

I just want to say I really hate this thread. Being a Physician Assistant has never been a back up plan for me. I'm 24 and I have two kids, but also a super supportive husband who is good with either option. And my choice has always been PA because at this point in my life I'm good with the salary, the tough schooling, and the inability to have complete autonomy. I wanted to get done with PA school, join the guard, find some way out there clinic that mixed primary and urgent care, and be happy . I was good working towards that goal till this topic popped up. Now I'm sitting here wondering if 30-40 years from now Ill regret not going to med school. 

 

 

I love being a PA

 

I am frustrated by artifical restrictions placed on my practice simply because I am not a doc

 

If I had to do it over again I would

 

But it is also fair to point out the negatives and try to get the profession to work towards getting them resolved.

 

 

Really their is no reason why a PA can not do anything, sign anything that a PCP doc does...... it might take a little longer to get up to speed (too me schooling plus about 5-10 years) to really feel comfortable, but now the requirements of supervision, inability to direct bill, inability to order VNA or Hospice........ really adds nothing to the equation but does slow me down a lot.....

 

 

This is all due to our own success, we have become a critical part of the health care delivery team, and now need to grow our own professional standards and  reimbursement.

[HarlemPAS]

This thread makes me wonder if people choose the wrong career path, medicine isn't about wealth it's about helping people PA,MD,DO,RN it doesn't matter. If people want to be rich there are plenty of other professions that give you a higher income in a shorter period of time. Sorry for all those that are so unhappy, happy holidays everyone. Remember to be grateful for what you have, it is a blessing.

[gbrothers98]

OP was asking about lifestyle particularly hours worked, salary, call.

 

Here are my specifics. BTW, I think more PAs should openly talk about salary, hours and benefits. There is no legitimate reason to keep those secret. When an employer does that, their goal is to divide and conquer. So consider this a shout out to let everyone post their specifics. Transparency can do wonders when shedding light on inequities.

I work solo 12 hours shifts in an ED at a small critical access hospital in New England. I will work one to 4 shifts a week depending. I average 11 shifts a month, I have to work 1600 hours per year contractually. My base salary is almost 120k per annum, I also get an administrative stipend prorated monthly. We get paid an hourly rate of $20 more an hour based upon those numbers for time after shift and shifts worked above monthly prorated #.

 

Place what I do in perspective. I function at the very top of my state license. SP is available by phone. I consult and transfer on my own. Run codes and resuscitations on my own. I spend a lot of time on education and training. I take no call.

 

Truthfully, I think I should get paid more. The board certified clinic docs send their sick patients to me to manage. The hospitalists count on me to fully work up patients in the ED in preparation for admission. I learned all of this on the job, I spent the first 3 years of my career working in a larger ED with a board certified ED docs and then landed in this position and grew with it. But my situation is specific to where I work. I would likely take a pay cut at other places where my responsibility is less. 

 

This ties in to the frustration that is expressed in some of the prior posts. I understand this intimately. The big picture is that there are over 800k physicians in the US. That is 8 times the number of PAs. Physicians have been a legitimate and highly regarded profession in this country since the 1800s, PAs since the late 1960s. For a young profession there have been some significant achievements in 50 years, I can just imagine what the next 50 will bring. Simplistically though, the balance of leadership and decision making still lies with physicians at many institutions and places of PA employment. With increasing numbers, PAs will be able to make more of an impact on their situations across the country. This will occur in fits and spurts but the momentum is forward. It is not easy being a PA as evident from what you can read above. It is not easy being a physician either. Professional frustrations and barriers come in many shapes and sizes and derive from varied sources. For PAs this can be due to local, state and regional conditions, some surmountable, others will take years to decades to wear down if at all. Some are self made, local conditions are not optimal but the spouse has a good job, kids are in school, elderly parents live nearby, cant jump ship for the better opportunity, frustration mounts concerning local issues preventing improvement.

 

Not a prescient answer for specific situations. There are some whom have posted that they made a decision that may not have been the best but what is not entirely clear is if the alternative would have been better or if they even would have had an opportunity other than the path they took! There is the possibility that for every PA that thinks they should have gone to med school that there are is a physician that otherwise would have rather become a PA. I personally know physicians and PAs who would give medicine the boot entirely if there was a viable alternative. There is always a viable alternative, there just are internal and external factors and motivations that outweigh the desire to pursue.

 

For those making this decision, there likely is going to be a tipping point in the process that leads to a conclusion. Take your opportunity and dont look back, there are many whom never even get to have that in life.

 

Good luck.

G Brothers PA-C

[aquafresh11]

I work in family medicine, 32 hours a week, 30 min appts, no call or weekends. I make 101,000 a year.

[grcia]

There are a lot more responses than I was expecting to get lol, all very good ones at that.

[EMEDPA]

HarlemPAS- I agree. it isn't about the money, it's about scope of practice and respect. If I could get a better scope of practice without driving into the middle of nowhere to work tiny rural ERs and could get respected as a medical professional anywhere else I would gladly take a pay cut. in fact, at my newest job the scope of practice/autonomy and respect for EMPAs is so good I didn't even ask about the salary at the interview. I didn't know what my pay rate was until I got my first check. you may not believe that, but it's true. I would work at that place for 1/2 what they pay me just because of the opportunities it presents and the positive way in which they treat PAs. mind you I have to drive quite a way from home to get kind of deal....I have 3 jobs; 2 rural and 1 inner city. the rural jobs are by far the better jobs in terms of scope of practice/autonomy and respect.

[HarlemPAS]

EMEDPA I see how that can be frustrating, I'm glad you were able to find a position that provides you with the autonomy and respect you deserve. I'm sorry that you have to travel so far I'm sure that is not easy. Where do you live?

[EMEDPA]

HarlemPAS- I live in the pacific NW and work in both Oregon and WA state. not a lot of jobs around here for EMPAs to work with a great scope of practice. it took me years to find the ones I am at now. If I lived in Alaska it would be easy, but the family isn't quite up for that...Jobs in the lower 48 for solo PAs are few and far between and generally don't hire lots of folks. my most recent job from the post above took me applying every year for a decade before I even got an interview.

PS: I used to work with FBIDoc. He's got a great set of skills and experience, but was unable to get an appropriate position that recognized his skills and experience. he had to move across country to find a position that did.  

[Simplify]

HarlemPAS- I live in the pacific NW and work in both Oregon and WA state. not a lot of jobs around here for EMPAs to work with a great scope of practice. it took me years to find the ones I am at now. If I lived in Alaska it would be easy, but the family isn't quite up for that...Jobs in the lower 48 for solo PAs are few and far between and generally don't hire lots of folks. my most recent job from the post above took me applying every year for a decade before I even got an interview.

PS: I used to work with FBIDoc. He's got a great set of skills and experience, but was unable to get an appropriate position that recognized his skills and experience. he had to move across country to find a position that did.  

 

 

Curious, how do you think a solid PA residency in EM would have modified your career trajectory?

[jbailey]

Appreciate your opinions and experience, everyone. Fortunately, I had physicians and PAs in my family to talk to this thanksgiving, or else I might have been scared into ditching my PA ambitions. I do wish there were more older PAs on here to provide some positive counterpoint to the disproportionate number of negative posts on this thread. Happy holidays!

[Boatswain2PA]

Appreciate your opinions and experience, everyone. Fortunately, I had physicians and PAs in my family to talk to this thanksgiving, or else I might have been scared into ditching my PA ambitions. I do wish there were more older PAs on here to provide some positive counterpoint to the disproportionate number of negative posts on this thread. Happy holidays!

 

You are reading "negativity" where none exists.  There are positives and negatives, good and bad, to any career.  The point that us older folks are saying here is that it is certainly "worth it" for young people to try for medical school over PA school.  The payoffs are worth the efforts. 

[gbrothers98]

Appreciate your opinions and experience, everyone. Fortunately, I had physicians and PAs in my family to talk to this thanksgiving, or else I might have been scared into ditching my PA ambitions. I do wish there were more older PAs on here to provide some positive counterpoint to the disproportionate number of negative posts on this thread. Happy holidays!

Define older?

 

There are at least 3 PAs whom have chimed in on this thread with 15+ years of being a PA.

We ARE the older generation of PAs, the bulk of growth in the profession has been over the last 5-10 years. The over 55 crowd is a distinctly small group percentage wise compared to the 25 to 50 year old group.

PAs used to be a lot older when they went through school, I was the next to youngest in my class at the age of 30 when we started, I had a classmate who was 55!

So I would give some thought to what has been written. These generation X PAs are the current leaders in the field, they have done what they can locally, regionally and nationally to improve the profession. They have had to live through breaking ground where they ended up practicing along with surviving several notable economic upheavals and a changing healthcare landscape that is certainly dynamic right now.

 

Remember too, this is the internet. It is not a statistical sampling. These phishing expeditions to get opinions are just that, anecdotal opinions that contain truth concerning only a specific situation. To base your life path on what I or anyone on this forum has to say is erroneous. Please do your best to prove all that opinion wrong.

 

Here is my anecdotal experience. Prior to PA school, I was an enlisted medic in the Air Force. I had just gotten promoted, my wife had a good job as a school teacher, we were comfortable. We were eating dinner at friends and were discussing what I was pursuing. At that time there were less than 90 PA programs in the country. These programs got well over 500 applications to sometimes a thousand a year for a class that ranged from 25 to 40 students on average. That meant that 1 in 20 or so got chosen, some programs with even worse odds. Our friends heard that and were perplexed that I was pursuing this goal that could be very unattainable even with quite a bit of hard work. On the drive home, my wife (she is the first one, I am happier with the second) brought this up for discussion that I may be just wasting my time and our money pursuing this goal. On the other hand, I really thought I was something special.

 

And fast forward 20 years. So listen to this cacophony (word of the day) of opinion because there is a lot worthwhile here. But dont lose sight of what is right for you and hold fast. 

 

Good luck

G Brothers PA-C

[EMEDPA]

Curious, how do you think a solid PA residency in EM would have modified your career trajectory?

I would have landed the solo job after 3-5 years instead of > 15.

[tunafish]

 Many of the folks in my doctoral program are senior PAs attaining another degree so that they can leave clinical medicine and become researchers or full time academic faculty.

That is definitely a retrograde movement. Big surprise is waiting there. Current NIH funding is about 7-8% and they will compete with professional PhDs and MD/PhDs for funding. I could see getting a degree to teach, since majority of old school were not even Masters and you need one to teach in a master's program.

[tunafish]

This thread makes me wonder if people choose the wrong career path, medicine isn't about wealth it's about helping people PA,MD,DO,RN it doesn't matter. If people want to be rich there are plenty of other professions that give you a higher income in a shorter period of time. Sorry for all those that are so unhappy, happy holidays everyone. Remember to be grateful for what you have, it is a blessing.

Name one! There are none. Medicine is the only guaranteed "high-income-always-needed" life gig (not that it is the reason to get into medicine, but let's face it)

[DiggySRNA]

Name one! There are none. Medicine is the only guaranteed "high-income-always-needed" life gig (not that it is the reason to get into medicine, but let's face it)

 

When compared to the average PA salary between 85K - 110K/yr

Engineer - Boston

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Engineer-V-Salary-Details-Boston-MA.aspx

 

CoPilot - Boston

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Co-Pilot-Large-Jet-Salary-Details.aspx

 

Network Operations Manager

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Network-Operations-Manager-Salary-Details.aspx

 

Oil and Gas Supervisor

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Oil-and-Gas-Field-Supervisor-Salary-Details.aspx?&fromevent=swz.jobdetails.freepop

 

It takes less schooling, less debt, and less stressful to become the above (engineering is arguable). You can be trained in the field except for being a commercial airline co-pilot.

[GreatChecko]

When compared to the average PA salary between 85K - 110K/yr

Engineer - Boston

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Engineer-V-Salary-Details-Boston-MA.aspx

 

CoPilot - Boston

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Co-Pilot-Large-Jet-Salary-Details.aspx

 

Network Operations Manager

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Network-Operations-Manager-Salary-Details.aspx

 

Oil and Gas Supervisor

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Oil-and-Gas-Field-Supervisor-Salary-Details.aspx?&fromevent=swz.jobdetails.freepop

 

It takes less schooling, less debt, and less stressful to become the above (engineering is arguable). You can be trained in the field except for being a commercial airline co-pilot.

 

The training, time, experience, and money it takes to get to the level where you can be a copilot of a large jet is a lot like medical school. We are talking years of scut work after you just paid out the rear for training or spent the last 10+ years in the military. I went from being a pilot to being a PA and I will make more as a PA resident than I made as a captain of an airliner. It's a VERY poor comparison on all counts. 

 

What's funny to me is that the pilot boards all have much the same conversations, with all the same characters. "The grass is always greener on the other side..."

[DiggySRNA]

The point I am trying to make is that Medicine - especially the PA profession is not a quick fix to getting rich. Making 100K/year (ha, if you're lucky) with 100K in debt with an interest rate of 6.5% doesn't sound like a smart idea if one's goal is to swim in money.

 

The examples I have posted DO NOT require as much in class demand, on the job training, and debt to make what PAs are making. They require less and the pay is similar. That's my point. 

 

 

We are talking years of scut work after you just paid out the rear for training or ..."

 

Sounds like what PAs go through..and still no golf <- did I use that right? LOL

[tunafish]

oil and gas SUPERVISOR? How many of these jobs do you see on average in an average city? How long does it take to become a supervisor? What percentage of oil and gas majors become supervisors after graduation. Engineer is a noble job, but again takes years to become a well paid one, requires graduate school.

[DiggySRNA]

You asked for jobs that are "high paid" that is NOT in medicine. Simple salary.com search and there you have it.

 

The average city advertise for PAs with the headline "make 80k/year" fresh out of school...100k with experience (if you're lucky). So at the end of the day, becoming a PA is not a quick fix to richness. 

 

It takes experience to become a well paid supervisor....it takes 2 years after BS to become a PA...add experience + right location to become a well paid PA...so enlighten me how PAs (in medicine) is a quick fix to richness since that was your original argument. BTW the senior PAs on here have 15+ years under their belt and make 120K?

 

PA w/ 15 years of experience: 100K/year - 130K in paid back loans. 

Oil and Gas Supervisor w/ 15 years of experience: 90K year with 30k in paid back loans...assuming he/she went to college.

Who is rich again?