wjm7 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I think the name is interesting. I have long been in favor of nomenclature similar to the Chinese model. 3 years of study allows one to become an Assistant Physician, 5 years as Physician, 7 years a Medical Scientist. They are all physicians, but at different levels. I agree. I think this sounds like a wonderful model. I'm not sure that this program represents a step in that direction, though. It's Physician Assistant Medicine, not Assistant Physician Medicine, in this program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2234leej Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 the name is ridiculous. and my young relative just completed a Doctor of Physical Therapy at Boston university .... Her PT doctorate alone gave her 180K debt .... She is making 70K a year ..... Degree creep can give a profession a certain level of respect ..... It can also ruin the profession .... I doubt she will ever be donating the a PT political action fund .... And she will probably be willing to take low ball salaries/offers just to start paying back loans. People do not realize that 180K in loans is perhaps 500K in pay back over a 15 year period. Speaking as an orthopedic physical therapist, I agree with you that degree creep has many negatives that can affect the profession. I have sizable debt that will take some time to pay off. Also, as someone who is interested in applying to PA school, I still think a doctorate coupled with the title "assistant" is ludicrous. That to me is the equivalent of having a CNA doctorate or physical therapy assistant doctorate. I have the utmost respect for the PA profession but it looks like plain foolishness in the public eye. I think it'll look even more crazy in the eyes of physicians. The more years you add on the less sense it makes to not apply to medical school (in my honest opinion). I think the PA profession made a good move when they switched to a master's degree rather than an associates. Hopefully they won't make the same mistake as other professions to change to a doctorate. PT switching to a doctorate wasn't the smartest move when looking at it at multiple angles, but it makes more sense than the PA profession doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator True Anomaly Posted January 17, 2014 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2014 As I re-read the website it seems that this program is only available to students graduating from the Lynchburg. Are there are other programs in the works for PAs that already hold Masters level degrees? Nine months to get a Doctorate level degree seems like a good format. Nebraska? St. Francis? will others jump on the train? Are Residency programs or Fellowships able to confer doctoral degrees? Must they be associated with an academic institution? Just thinking outside the box about what options there are for those of us applying to PA programs now. The only residency/fellowship programs that confer a "doctoral degree" are the military program. The Baylor/Army EM PA residency was the first, and there are now others, that confer a "DscPAS"- a clinical doctorate. http://www.baylor.edu/empa/ None of the civilian programs, to my knowledge, are even thinking about adding a "doctorate" to their curriculum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted January 17, 2014 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2014 I think it is great Hey listen - degree creep is real and we are being left behind - to day we do not need to do this is merely being unaware of the changes taking place in medicine - does it make any sense for a PA-C with a Certificate be managing a patient and writing orders for the DPT or DOT or DSLP to follow? Or the fact that up to now the Nursing lobby has being kicking it hard to advance their own when we sit on the side lines and get left out? I personally lost $40k due to the PA not being included in the EMR incentive funds.... to many more oversights like that and we will have to fight for our very survival On the other hand - WHY ON EARTH WOULD THEY NAME IT PHYSICIAN ASSISTANT? Why not copy Yale and at least grant a Physician Associate degree??? No skin off anyone....... It is progress and like it or not we need to "keep up with the jones" or we are going to be 3rd tier then non-existent..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paula Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 The program is not yet approved by the educational boards and ARC-PA. Do you think they are not allowed to use the physician associate title? It makes me wonder if there was some words from someone in a secret email sent to lynchburg saying "you better not call it associate program or else you won't get accreditation? I probably just started a rumor. Forgive me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblu Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 To me, the way being a PA is different from being a physician is in the length of study. Shorter school than an MD, lesser scope, lesser salary, lesser loans. Pros and cons. Therefore, longer length of study to still be a PA doesn't make sense. Then we have almost as much schooling, almost as much loans, but still lesser scope and lesser salary. Doctorates in nursing, physical therapy, OT, etc. are, if not completely undertsandable, at least less redundant. Because none of those people do work that is pretty freaking similar to a physician. Even NPs have the whole "nursing model" so they are different. For a PA to incur more debt and go to school longer and become a DPAM just to practice medicine with the same restrictions as any ole PA doesn't make sense, because the. You might as well have gone to medical school! At least then your income will be higher. It defeats the purpose of being a PA, in my opinion. I believe in the profession as it extends medical coverage that is prohibitive in cost or resources were it to be provided by physicians. A mostly pointless terminal degree that ups our debt and doesn't grant improved clinical scope does not advance our profession. It perpetuates the fallacy that all PAs secretly wanted to be physicians but couldn't hack it in medical school. Be a PA because you want to be a PA, not because you settled for it. If you want the longer school and the title of "doctor", go to medical school. If you want a doctorate in other related areas, like education, public health, etc., that's different. But if you want a doctorate in medicine, well, they ready have that. It's called an MD! (Or DO, or DMD, you get my drift). Being a doctor of anything-assistant (or even associate) is an oxymoron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 "It defeats the purpose of being a PA, in my opinion. I believe in the profession as it extends medical coverage that is prohibitive in cost or resources were it to be provided by physicians." so essentially we are slaves and provide cheap labor with significantly less reimbersment and your ok with that? You also dont want to allow a way/bridge for a PA to reach top of their proffesional potential? :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cinntsp Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 It perpetuates the fallacy that all PAs secretly wanted to be physicians but couldn't hack it in medical school. ...or it opens doors for more PAs to take greater roles in education, administration, research, and government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblu Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 No, we are not cheap slave labor. But if you want to have a doctorate IN MEDICINE, they already have that. It's called being a medical doctor. If you want to expand your role by getting a doctorate, there are plenty of avenues for that already. I'm saying that a doctorate in medicine is being a medical doctor, and if that's what you (general you) want, why not be a physician? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 so give me one good reason why the PA profession should not have bridge programs to allow the transition from PA to MD by builing off of prior knowledge and experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 so give me one good reason why the PA profession should not have bridge programs to allow the transition from PA to MD by builing off of prior knowledge and experience?There is one bridge from the physician side. I think more are in the works. I'm in the first class of the Accelerated Physician Assistant Pathway at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine in Erie, PA--there are 7 of us (I'm the only woman in my group). We are all doing outrageously well and will find out where we match for residency in March. IMO having done both PA and DO school I don't think the bridge should come from the PA side--it needs to come from the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadman Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Dear All, One of the most incredible things about the PA profession is its ability to adapt to the ever changing landscape of healthcare. The developing PA program at Lynchburg College and it's leadership should be commended for forward thinking and not being afraid to propose a degree that undoubtedly will meet resistence. Some how enhancing an already phenomenal curriculum to include a terminal doctorate degree for PA's who choose to do so , can only compliment an already outstanding profession. I was 2 years old in 1967 when Duke University proposed the PA concept, I wish I could have been there to hear what was said about us (PA's). I bet the concept was met with resistence. Had they not dared to be forwarding thinking we not be having this discusion today. And look at the profession today with over 80,000 PA's providing healthcare to populations that truly need it. The modern PA profession is strong, viable and evolving. Eugene Stead would be proud. Yes there is mixed emotion, but it doesn't take away from the fact that evolution is enivitable. Change is process is good. Many argue that PA practice is like that of a physician. And in most instances it is. But on the other hand the PA profession has managed to gain an identity that is unlike a physician because of the manner and style in which we care for our patients. I believe the intent of the MPAP/ DPAM at Lynchburg College is to develop an outstanding program and continue to produce outstanding health care providers for a new age and time. It's an enourmous task to even begin to develop a PA program and offer the deggree required by the accrediting body, let alone propose an idea, a degree that is beyond our comfort zone. This of forward thinking PA's and health care professions, supported by their institution ( because this just doesn't happen over night) have worked long and hard to get this point. They still have a long road ahead, to get through accreditation. I read their website and they are very transparent about what they intend to do and what their status is as a developing program. What Lynchburg College has done is created a topic for discussion among the masses, inlcuding the apropriate representing organizations of PA's in education and the profession. We should support our colleagues, ask how we can help and applaude them for being "contrarian" leaders as they develop their program. Sincerely, Steadman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staplemyfoot Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 It's funny that PA's on this forum keep on saying how the profession needs to improve. When someone does something very innovative that improves our profession, people begin to criticize it - yet most of these critics aren't doing much to help the profession.I completely agree with Steadman, good job Lynchburg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paula Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 There is one bridge from the physician side. I think more are in the works. I'm in the first class of the Accelerated Physician Assistant Pathway at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine in Erie, PA--there are 7 of us (I'm the only woman in my group). We are all doing outrageously well and will find out where we match for residency in March. IMO having done both PA and DO school I don't think the bridge should come from the PA side--it needs to come from the top. How or when or will the top ever think of the idea? I have not yet seen a doc at the top propose a PA-MD program. Unless you mean the top of the PA world...AAPA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 There is one bridge from the physician side. I think more are in the works. I'm in the first class of the Accelerated Physician Assistant Pathway at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine in Erie, PA--there are 7 of us (I'm the only woman in my group). We are all doing outrageously well and will find out where we match for residency in March. IMO having done both PA and DO school I don't think the bridge should come from the PA side--it needs to come from the top. not quite sure what your point is. "I don't think the bridge should come from the PA side--it needs to come from the top." do you understand the concept of "bridge program"? and please do elaborate on whom the "Top" is? bridge program is refered to taking the educational and experience base of the PA and adding to it until it is equivalent or surpases the basic MD training. Essentially converting, with training of course, a PA to a MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2234leej Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 "It defeats the purpose of being a PA, in my opinion. I believe in the profession as it extends medical coverage that is prohibitive in cost or resources were it to be provided by physicians." so essentially we are slaves and provide cheap labor with significantly less reimbersment and your ok with that? You also dont want to allow a way/bridge for a PA to reach top of their proffesional potential? :( JMPA: I think there should be more bridge programs that transition to an MD/DO. I do NOT think there should be a doctorate in physician assistant studies. I there are other ways to reach higher levels than getting a doctorate. That is not the solution in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted January 19, 2014 Moderator Share Posted January 19, 2014 How or when or will the top ever think of the idea? I have not yet seen a doc at the top propose a PA-MD program. Unless you mean the top of the PA world...AAPA?[/quote I believe she means the PA-DO program at LECOM, which more PA-DO programs might be in the works. Or do you, Paula, mean the idea as a general "all medical schools should do this" proposal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted January 19, 2014 Moderator Share Posted January 19, 2014 I think we all agree that bridge programs would be ideal. Though we can't wait for others to change things for us, so I still commend Lynchburg for trying. At least trying something. Doing nothing is the worst possible scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 not quite sure what your point is. "I don't think the bridge should come from the PA side--it needs to come from the top." do you understand the concept of "bridge program"? and please do elaborate on whom the "Top" is? bridge program is refered to taking the educational and experience base of the PA and adding to it until it is equivalent or surpases the basic MD training. Essentially converting, with training of course, a PA to a MD.As the only person on this forum who has actually done the bridge, yes, I think I understand it better than anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 How or when or will the top ever think of the idea? I have not yet seen a doc at the top propose a PA-MD program. Unless you mean the top of the PA world...AAPA?"From the top" is probably not the best choice of words. I was between patients in a busy ED and in a rush.I guess I mean that it needs to come from the higher level education--the MD/DO education side. The only way it would work from the PA side is to have a program with strongly linked PA and medical education programs, ideally in the same school within the same department. I taught at MCG, a very well established and well respected PA program (Augusta, GA). It's loosely linked to the medical school but in an entirely different building and in the school of allied health sciences--NOT the medical school, where it belongs but has never been welcome. This drove me nuts (and not just me). It would never fly there because the MD school doesn't support it and they barely think of the PAs except when they want to hire one. I'm fond of the "stem cell" idea where PAs and medical students learn together and can "step off" the medical education train at reasonable places (say after 3rd year rotations if they want to be a PA and take PANCE to become certified for practice) or continue to take step 2, go to 4th year, graduate med school and go to traditional residency as MD/DO. This would be the smoothest bridge if later that PA decides to step back on the train to finish MD/DO training and go to residency to be independently licensed. It's more complicated than that obviously but I'm typing on my phone and I've had a long day so I'll let you research it further on your own. That's the "bridge" that makes the most sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjm7 Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 As the only person on this forum who has actually done the bridge, yes, I think I understand it better than anyone. When I saw the previous comment, I knew a sassy response was in order and on the way. You did not disappoint! :-) haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 JMPA: I think there should be more bridge programs that transition to an MD/DO. I do NOT think there should be a doctorate in physician assistant studies. I there are other ways to reach higher levels than getting a doctorate. That is not the solution in my opinion. thank you for the intelligent response. i am in total agreement with you. I would prefer a resonable bridge program over an awkward, silly title of doctor of physician assisting, or another doctor of clinical medicine (although not a term and preferable to the former). If by offering a doctorate in PA opens doors though i am all for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 As the only person on this forum who has actually done the bridge, yes, I think I understand it better than anyone. you mean as the only person doing the DO bridge. that does not qualify you as understanding it "better". I do applaud the DO bridge program for being one of the first. Why not a PA to MD bridge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 you mean as the only person doing the DO bridge. that does not qualify you as understanding it "better". I do applaud the DO bridge program for being one of the first. Why not a PA to MD bridge?It had to start somewhere. As it happened it was a DO program that was willing--and a DO program director and former PA with a fire in his belly and a commitment to actually make it happen.I make no significant distinction between MDs and DOs. Curriculum is the same except DOs learn osteopathic manipulation and enhanced physical diagnosis skills in manual medicine. I'm grateful for this training and find it useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Hey listen - degree creep is real and we are being left behind - We are indeed being left behind. If we as a profession do not catch-on, it just a matter of time, we will soon be supervise by DNP. I recently came across a FM PA position where the PA was to report to the MD and the administrator (an NP DNP). I contacted the clinic just for the heck of it. The voice message prompt states: For Dr. Z (an DNP) dial Ext 9, for Dr. X ( an MD) Ext dial 10 and for Mr. Sleepy (a PA) dial 11. The public would soon think DNP >> PA & would rather see a DNP instead NOT a doctor assistant (Physician Assistant). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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