Will the rapid spread of COVID-19 Change Anti-Vax'rs Thinking?

[rev ronin]

2 hours ago, JMPA said:

so therefore you are unable to state that a vaccine will prevent a disease in a given patient

Are you expecting certainty?  Because that's just simply not real world. No intervention is either 100% safe or 100% efficacious, so that's a stupid bar to ask vaccines to get over, when, say, PT or radiation or aspirin doesn't have to.

[Guest JMPA]

On 3/23/2020 at 5:27 PM, ANESMCR said:

So therefore you are incapable of providing an intelligent response. I also highly suspect you’ve never been in a capacity to order or administer vaccinations. And I think that’s a good thing in your case.

very toxic and immature response to a thread

[Guest JMPA]

22 hours ago, rev ronin said:

Are you expecting certainty?  Because that's just simply not real world. No intervention is either 100% safe or 100% efficacious, so that's a stupid bar to ask vaccines to get over, when, say, PT or radiation or aspirin doesn't have to.

This is your/the answer as to why many people choose not to vaccinate. When a patient presents for a visit and a vaccine is offered efficacy risks, benefits and alternatives need to be explained and patient choices need to be respected to have the best outcome for the patient. Failure to do this results in poor decision making. When a provider has biased thinking as reflected by immature responses as above, they cause more harm by alienating patient populations and stigmatizing groups that may otherwise respond favorably to a well explained treatment strategy for utilizing vaccinations. Disrespecting patients decisions and acting immaturely because of bias does not benefit anyone. Radical vaccination pushers will always be met with resistance, it is a natural human reaction.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

6 hours ago, JMPA said:

This is your/the answer as to why many people choose not to vaccinate. When a patient presents for a visit and a vaccine is offered efficacy risks, benefits and alternatives need to be explained and patient choices need to be respected to have the best outcome for the patient. Failure to do this results in poor decision making. When a provider has biased thinking as reflected by immature responses as above, they cause more harm by alienating patient populations and stigmatizing groups that may otherwise respond favorably to a well explained treatment strategy for utilizing vaccinations. Disrespecting patients decisions and acting immaturely because of bias does not benefit anyone. Radical vaccination pushers will always be met with resistance, it is a natural human reaction.

Vaccines are equally for the public good as well as the individual patient. So they can not make their decision in a vacuum. If they don’t have contraindications to the vaccines, like many people do with compromised immune systems or allergies, then their risk is determined to be lesser than the risk of them infecting a person who can’t be vaccinated. So one thing is for certain, if you don’t vaccinate and you medically can, you’re selfish or not medically literate.

What do you tell people when explaining they shouldn’t vaccinate?

[mgriffiths]

6 minutes ago, JMPA said:

This is your/the answer as to why many people choose not to vaccinate. When a patient presents for a visit and a vaccine is offered efficacy, risks, benefits and alternatives need to be explained and patient choices need to be respected to have the best outcome for the patient. Failure to do this results in poor decision making. When a provider has biased thinking based on sound scientific data, as reflected by the immature responses as above, they cause more harm by alienating patient populations and stigmatizing groups that may otherwise respond favorably to a well explained treatment strategy for utilizing vaccinations. Disrespecting patient's decisions and acting immaturely because of bias does not benefit anyone. Radical vaccination pushers (this is an oxymoron) Competent providers who understand the utility of vaccines will always be met with resistance by people who trust blogs and porn stars over published data, it is a natural human reaction.

Fixed the above for you...

But, this is what I read:

 

[rev ronin]

It is certainly within a patient's right to make selfish decisions with demonstrably poor medical outcomes.  That's why I emphasize relationships in my communications with vaccine refusers, just like I would with tobacco users: we don't win people over by name calling, no matter how righteous our cause, but by presenting them a better alternative.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

16 minutes ago, rev ronin said:

It is certainly within a patient's right to make selfish decisions with demonstrably poor medical outcomes.  That's why I emphasize relationships in my communications with vaccine refusers, just like I would with tobacco users: we don't win people over by name calling, no matter how righteous our cause, but by presenting them a better alternative.

I see your point, but most selfish medical decisions do not have an impact on others. Same reason we don’t let people smoke in the hospital. It would be more analogous to say that you can make the decision to not vaccinate, but you will be quarantined from society. I don’t deride these people in my practice, but similar to how I tell parents their smoking is going to affect their child, I tell anti-vaxxers they could cause harm to someone else. Outside of my practice, yes, I do think shaming is okay. Would you not shame a smoker who lights up on the ward? 

[ANESMCR]

1 hour ago, JMPA said:

very toxic and immature response to a thread

I’m convinced you’re medically illiterate. You’ve spent 8 years on here trying to push your anti-vaccine agenda. 8 years. And you’ve not once provided a meritorious response to anyone. That, at the minimum, would at least be appreciated. All you do is insult others, drag folks into pointless banter, and push your harmful personal beliefs. One can only hope this isn’t a reflection of your daily reality.

[Guest JMPA]

Typical online bullying techniques by above respondents, still does not address the point. Are the prominent voices on this forum capable of adult discussions?

[Guest JMPA]

3 hours ago, ANESMCR said:

I’m convinced you’re medically illiterate. You’ve spent 8 years on here trying to push your anti-vaccine agenda. 8 years. And you’ve not once provided a meritorious response to anyone. That, at the minimum, would at least be appreciated. All you do is insult others, drag folks into pointless banter, and push your harmful personal beliefs. One can only hope this isn’t a reflection of your daily reality.

trash talk coming from trash, get this trash off the forum

[rev ronin]

4 minutes ago, JMPA said:

trash talk coming from trash, get this trash off the forum

As you wish...

(JMPA is now permanently restricted from posting)

Edited March 25, 2020 by rev ronin
added

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

4 minutes ago, rev ronin said:

As you wish...

(JMPA is now permanently restricted from posting)

 

[MediMike]

9 hours ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

 

Would also have accepted a Princess Bride reference....still...+3 points for old school Simpsons.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

4 hours ago, MediMike said:

Would also have accepted a Princess Bride reference....still...+3 points for old school Simpsons.

Princess Bride seemed too on the nose.

[brooks23]

Definitely hasn't affected my anti-vax friend's opinion on the matter. She still thinks that COVID-19 is a "Big Pharma" ploy to get money for the vaccine. She thinks the number of deaths has been made up by the media...heaven help us. 

 

 

[dfw6er]

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/demographics-may-predict-choice-to-not-vaccinate-children/

Texans who are college-educated, live in suburban or urban areas, have higher median incomes, and are ethnically white are less likely to vaccinate their children, according to a study published online March 10 in PLOS Medicine.

Edited March 26, 2020 by dfw6er
TL;DR money shot

[rev ronin]

7 hours ago, dfw6er said:

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/demographics-may-predict-choice-to-not-vaccinate-children/

Texans who are college-educated, live in suburban or urban areas, have higher median incomes, and are ethnically white are less likely to vaccinate their children, according to a study published online March 10 in PLOS Medicine.

Sad.  There was also a study of immunizations where Mississippi (I think it was, or one of the other Deep South states) was absolutely kicking butt in herd immunity, vs. Colorado, I think it was, but it could have easily been any other well-educated affluent state.

[kargiver]

It perplexes me that people who are anti-vax (and even many among us as medical providers) don't really know the history of how vaccination came about, the role of Jenner, how people were re-infected with smallpox to prove that cowpox vaccination was actually protective, and the role of ethics in all of this.  Semantics are just that - semantics - to try to dissuade one from an overwhelming argument.  This is what my 5 yo son used to try to do.  

Vaccination at its core is all about cause and effect - eliminate the cause and there can be no effect.  But to try and use "Koch's" postulates against anyone as a means to disprove the efficacy of vaccination is, well, absurd.  Rev - thanks for blocking JMPA; strikes me as one who thinks Zenos Paradoxes are the only way to see the world around them...

G