How far will PA wages fall in the future?

[PAstudentCanada]

Just to throw out a number, PA's in Canada average a salary of ~65,000/year \

 

Where are you getting this figure from? I am a Canadian PA student in Ontario. Most PAs here make 80 something to start and in Manitoba about 90. The Government of Ontario is subsidizing up to 92 thousand dollars toward PA salaries plus 10 thousand dollar bonuses for rural/underserviced areas. That figure is highly unlikely.

[Walkoffshot]

Where are you getting this figure from? I am a Canadian PA student in Ontario. Most PAs here make 80 something to start and in Manitoba about 90. The Government of Ontario is subsidizing up to 92 thousand dollars toward PA salaries plus 10 thousand dollar bonuses for rural/underserviced areas. That figure is highly unlikely.

 

Yeah, you're right. There is not much factual evidence supporting my claim, and is probably unlikely. I really just was just using numbers to provide an example. I was actually just in RBC the other day getting my professional student line of credit finalized. I think they are the only bank in Canada that recognizes a Physician Assistant. They would provide 60,000 in credit without a cosigner... the reason? Well I am sure it is a big equation, but when it came down to it, they had a salary tagged to PA's of $65,000. So, my numbers are a little factual based on that evidence, although the resource lacks depth of knowledge. I was dumfounded by that figure. THe UofM website says 80-100,000 salary. Every university that I have seen inflates the projected salaries.. for attraction purposes. UofM can probably do that because PA's do make salaries in that range. What about those that don't? are they included? Does that 90,000 in Manitoba contain all practicing PA's in Manitoba - is it an average? I'm not being defensive, I really just want to know. Because for years I have been under the impression that Canadian PA's make considerably lower than US PA's.

[Walkoffshot]

Where are you getting this figure from? I am a Canadian PA student in Ontario. Most PAs here make 80 something to start and in Manitoba about 90. The Government of Ontario is subsidizing up to 92 thousand dollars toward PA salaries plus 10 thousand dollar bonuses for rural/underserviced areas. That figure is highly unlikely.

 

Yeah, you're right. There is not much factual evidence supporting my claim, and is probably unlikely. I really just was just using numbers to provide an example. I was actually just in RBC the other day getting my professional student line of credit finalized. I think they are the only bank in Canada that recognizes a Physician Assistant. They would provide 60,000 in credit without a cosigner... the reason? Well I am sure it is a big equation, but when it came down to it, they had a salary tagged to PA's of $65,000. So, my numbers are a little factual based on that evidence, although the resource lacks depth of knowledge. I was dumfounded by that figure. THe UofM website says 80-100,000 salary. Every university that I have seen inflates the projected salaries.. for attraction purposes. UofM can probably do that because PA's do make salaries in that range. What about those that don't? are they included? Does that 90,000 in Manitoba contain all practicing PA's in Manitoba - is it an average? I'm not being defensive, I really just want to know. Because for years I have been under the impression that Canadian PA's make considerably lower than US PA's.

[PAstudentCanada]

I am the person responsible for the fact that RBC gives the Professional Student Line of Credit to PA students. You see, I used to work at RBC and a good friend of mine (my former manager) is high-up in RBC now. When I got into the PA Programme I spoke with him and we worked together to convince the higher-ups to do this. The reason they valued it like that is not because of the actual average being that low, it is because there is virtually NO DATA on it so they were taking my word for it! They went-out on a limb to help our growing profession because my buddy vouched for me and was behind me all the way. RBC credit department evaluators had no clue what/who we are and if it wasn't for my relationship with RBC as a former employee and for my friend being one of their rising stars this would not have happened so quickly (I got this done at RBC 2 years ago).

 

Most everybody I know in the McMaster graduating class last year got at least 80 something thousand to start. There are a few who got 75. I don't know anyone who got less than that and I know several who got 90 something to start. The market pays what is tolerated. If we as new PAs accept jobs for low pay then that will continue. If we demand what we are worth we will get it. A FM PA in Ontario I know demanded to be paid the same as the NP who was already in the practice and they complied, giving her a 9-5 37.5 hour work week, full benefits, paid cme, paid vacation, and a bunch of other perks plus a minimum starting salary of $89,500.00 plus a 10 thousand dollar signing bonus for being in an underserviced area. And that's for a new grad, first job.

 

 

Yeah, you're right. There is not much factual evidence supporting my claim, and is probably unlikely. I really just was just using numbers to provide an example. I was actually just in RBC the other day getting my professional student line of credit finalized. I think they are the only bank in Canada that recognizes a Physician Assistant. They would provide 60,000 in credit without a cosigner... the reason? Well I am sure it is a big equation, but when it came down to it, they had a salary tagged to PA's of $65,000. So, my numbers are a little factual based on that evidence, although the resource lacks depth of knowledge. I was dumfounded by that figure. THe UofM website says 80-100,000 salary. Every university that I have seen inflates the projected salaries.. for attraction purposes. UofM can probably do that because PA's do make salaries in that range. What about those that don't? are they included? Does that 90,000 in Manitoba contain all practicing PA's in Manitoba - is it an average? I'm not being defensive, I really just want to know. Because for years I have been under the impression that Canadian PA's make considerably lower than US PA's.

[PAstudentCanada]

I am the person responsible for the fact that RBC gives the Professional Student Line of Credit to PA students. You see, I used to work at RBC and a good friend of mine (my former manager) is high-up in RBC now. When I got into the PA Programme I spoke with him and we worked together to convince the higher-ups to do this. The reason they valued it like that is not because of the actual average being that low, it is because there is virtually NO DATA on it so they were taking my word for it! They went-out on a limb to help our growing profession because my buddy vouched for me and was behind me all the way. RBC credit department evaluators had no clue what/who we are and if it wasn't for my relationship with RBC as a former employee and for my friend being one of their rising stars this would not have happened so quickly (I got this done at RBC 2 years ago).

 

Most everybody I know in the McMaster graduating class last year got at least 80 something thousand to start. There are a few who got 75. I don't know anyone who got less than that and I know several who got 90 something to start. The market pays what is tolerated. If we as new PAs accept jobs for low pay then that will continue. If we demand what we are worth we will get it. A FM PA in Ontario I know demanded to be paid the same as the NP who was already in the practice and they complied, giving her a 9-5 37.5 hour work week, full benefits, paid cme, paid vacation, and a bunch of other perks plus a minimum starting salary of $89,500.00 plus a 10 thousand dollar signing bonus for being in an underserviced area. And that's for a new grad, first job.

 

 

Yeah, you're right. There is not much factual evidence supporting my claim, and is probably unlikely. I really just was just using numbers to provide an example. I was actually just in RBC the other day getting my professional student line of credit finalized. I think they are the only bank in Canada that recognizes a Physician Assistant. They would provide 60,000 in credit without a cosigner... the reason? Well I am sure it is a big equation, but when it came down to it, they had a salary tagged to PA's of $65,000. So, my numbers are a little factual based on that evidence, although the resource lacks depth of knowledge. I was dumfounded by that figure. THe UofM website says 80-100,000 salary. Every university that I have seen inflates the projected salaries.. for attraction purposes. UofM can probably do that because PA's do make salaries in that range. What about those that don't? are they included? Does that 90,000 in Manitoba contain all practicing PA's in Manitoba - is it an average? I'm not being defensive, I really just want to know. Because for years I have been under the impression that Canadian PA's make considerably lower than US PA's.

[jdtpac]

Paul, I think this is an excellent topic, and I'm glad you brought it up, despite the verbose whine that emerged from what's-his-face. You ask questions and learn, and that's what this is here for. This place doesn't belong to Jdtpac, and he doesn't guard the gates.

 

PAMAC,

It amazes how some individuals on this forum can take a single sentence in a thread and completely miss the entire thought process that was trying to be presented. And then feel the need to ridicule and discredit another individuals character. Please let's try to show these younger prePA and PA students a little more professionalism on our behalf when we disagree with each others comments. Your last 2 comments about me were completely off base and out of line.

 

You entirely missed my point. I began the very short thread with some praise, brought up basic economics and then ended with a question. The question was: “Right now you younger PAs come into the profession at much greater advantage to negotiate starting salaries then ever before. I know of places where new graduates are coming in at salary close to that of PAs who have been on the job for over 20 years. That is why I'm having a hard time understanding why this discussion even began on this forum”. All I was trying to stress was at the current economic environment for new graduate PAs is better now than it ever has been and I don't see a changing any time in the very near future.

 

Paul2834 asked question, I responded as I always do with a honest comment, which didn't seem to bother paul2834, but apparently upset you, however, that in no way should give you license to criticize another individual in the manner you did.

 

To get back to the subject matter, I don't think PAs salaries will ever fall as compared to our physician colleagues. They will eventually plateau, when and if the supply and demand factors become equal but even then I don't think you'll see a large decrease as what will happen to some but not all physicians subspecialties. I will say, that when we start seeing PA entry level salaries(in subspecialties) start reaching $150-160K range, which is beginning to happen, these salaries are probably going to plateau because they will be approaching the entry-level salary of some physicians within that same specialty. For right now, I think it goes without saying that the future is very bright and I don't think are younger colleagues need to worry about salary as much as they have to worry about their studies and passing the boards.

[jdtpac]

Paul, I think this is an excellent topic, and I'm glad you brought it up, despite the verbose whine that emerged from what's-his-face. You ask questions and learn, and that's what this is here for. This place doesn't belong to Jdtpac, and he doesn't guard the gates.

 

PAMAC,

It amazes how some individuals on this forum can take a single sentence in a thread and completely miss the entire thought process that was trying to be presented. And then feel the need to ridicule and discredit another individuals character. Please let's try to show these younger prePA and PA students a little more professionalism on our behalf when we disagree with each others comments. Your last 2 comments about me were completely off base and out of line.

 

You entirely missed my point. I began the very short thread with some praise, brought up basic economics and then ended with a question. The question was: “Right now you younger PAs come into the profession at much greater advantage to negotiate starting salaries then ever before. I know of places where new graduates are coming in at salary close to that of PAs who have been on the job for over 20 years. That is why I'm having a hard time understanding why this discussion even began on this forum”. All I was trying to stress was at the current economic environment for new graduate PAs is better now than it ever has been and I don't see a changing any time in the very near future.

 

Paul2834 asked question, I responded as I always do with a honest comment, which didn't seem to bother paul2834, but apparently upset you, however, that in no way should give you license to criticize another individual in the manner you did.

 

To get back to the subject matter, I don't think PAs salaries will ever fall as compared to our physician colleagues. They will eventually plateau, when and if the supply and demand factors become equal but even then I don't think you'll see a large decrease as what will happen to some but not all physicians subspecialties. I will say, that when we start seeing PA entry level salaries(in subspecialties) start reaching $150-160K range, which is beginning to happen, these salaries are probably going to plateau because they will be approaching the entry-level salary of some physicians within that same specialty. For right now, I think it goes without saying that the future is very bright and I don't think are younger colleagues need to worry about salary as much as they have to worry about their studies and passing the boards.

[brookspa]

This national/socialist "healthcare" bill willbe repealed. Market forces will regain a foothold, individual physicians will see tort reform, and a repeal of onerous CMS control of medicine, the private citizen can again have faith that they may choose their insurance co. provider, hospital and we can do the same. Pay and compensation will rise due to the boomers and free market forces. There is and will be a shortage of providers. My already substantial compensation will only go up and the sun will rise in the morning.

[brookspa]

This national/socialist "healthcare" bill willbe repealed. Market forces will regain a foothold, individual physicians will see tort reform, and a repeal of onerous CMS control of medicine, the private citizen can again have faith that they may choose their insurance co. provider, hospital and we can do the same. Pay and compensation will rise due to the boomers and free market forces. There is and will be a shortage of providers. My already substantial compensation will only go up and the sun will rise in the morning.

[physasst]

This national/socialist "healthcare" bill willbe repealed. Market forces will regain a foothold, individual physicians will see tort reform, and a repeal of onerous CMS control of medicine, the private citizen can again have faith that they may choose their insurance co. provider, hospital and we can do the same. Pay and compensation will rise due to the boomers and free market forces. There is and will be a shortage of providers. My already substantial compensation will only go up and the sun will rise in the morning.

 

Not really, most are predicting a 5-4 decision at SCOTUS to uphold. I think it will be 6-3. Kennedy and Roberts will both uphold the law. Scalia might too given his past decisions regarding the power of Congress to regulate commerce, although I think he will vote with Alito and Thomas in dissent. It'll be time to get the popcorn out. I'm gonna watch the whole thing.

 

As a workforce researcher, I must say that we have no idea what the NP workforce looks like. Their data is horrible, and they have skewed their numbers...(Goolsby using women's health and geriatrics in primary care numbers)....HRSA data shows similar primary care saturation to PA's and MD's. Most other researchers are frustrated by lack of good information about NP practice patterns, and they are reluctant to allow outside researchers to evaluate their data.

 

As far as PA wages. They will fall. All medical salaries will fall as there is a correction coming. I don't think based on current market models that PA's will fall much..no where NEAR to what physicians will see...(2-3% compared to 15+%)....

 

The simple fact is we need physicians...a lot of them. Current projections forecast a shortage of 130,600 by 2025 (AAMC)....we don't make enough PA's or NP's to even make much of a dent in that. Additionally, PA's and NP's are not physician equivalents. IOW, it's not a linear 1-1 substitution (IE; we are NOT physicians).

 

My predictions, PA's see 2-3% reduction (except primary care, which could see 10% increases [approx.]) and physicians see a 15-18% reduction (except primary care, which could see 8-10% increases).

 

It's coming. ACO models and new payment models like Prometheus will reduce spending per episode, which will of course, reduce reimbursements.

 

The good old days of 6+% annual increases in health care spending are going to come to a close.....perhaps not immediately, but it wasn't sustainable before...and certainly isn't now.

[physasst]

This national/socialist "healthcare" bill willbe repealed. Market forces will regain a foothold, individual physicians will see tort reform, and a repeal of onerous CMS control of medicine, the private citizen can again have faith that they may choose their insurance co. provider, hospital and we can do the same. Pay and compensation will rise due to the boomers and free market forces. There is and will be a shortage of providers. My already substantial compensation will only go up and the sun will rise in the morning.

 

Not really, most are predicting a 5-4 decision at SCOTUS to uphold. I think it will be 6-3. Kennedy and Roberts will both uphold the law. Scalia might too given his past decisions regarding the power of Congress to regulate commerce, although I think he will vote with Alito and Thomas in dissent. It'll be time to get the popcorn out. I'm gonna watch the whole thing.

 

As a workforce researcher, I must say that we have no idea what the NP workforce looks like. Their data is horrible, and they have skewed their numbers...(Goolsby using women's health and geriatrics in primary care numbers)....HRSA data shows similar primary care saturation to PA's and MD's. Most other researchers are frustrated by lack of good information about NP practice patterns, and they are reluctant to allow outside researchers to evaluate their data.

 

As far as PA wages. They will fall. All medical salaries will fall as there is a correction coming. I don't think based on current market models that PA's will fall much..no where NEAR to what physicians will see...(2-3% compared to 15+%)....

 

The simple fact is we need physicians...a lot of them. Current projections forecast a shortage of 130,600 by 2025 (AAMC)....we don't make enough PA's or NP's to even make much of a dent in that. Additionally, PA's and NP's are not physician equivalents. IOW, it's not a linear 1-1 substitution (IE; we are NOT physicians).

 

My predictions, PA's see 2-3% reduction (except primary care, which could see 10% increases [approx.]) and physicians see a 15-18% reduction (except primary care, which could see 8-10% increases).

 

It's coming. ACO models and new payment models like Prometheus will reduce spending per episode, which will of course, reduce reimbursements.

 

The good old days of 6+% annual increases in health care spending are going to come to a close.....perhaps not immediately, but it wasn't sustainable before...and certainly isn't now.

[Joelseff]

Not really, most are predicting a 5-4 decision at SCOTUS to uphold. I think it will be 6-3. Kennedy and Roberts will both uphold the law. Scalia might too given his past decisions regarding the power of Congress to regulate commerce, although I think he will vote with Alito and Thomas in dissent. It'll be time to get the popcorn out. I'm gonna watch the whole thing.

 

As a workforce researcher, I must say that we have no idea what the NP workforce looks like. Their data is horrible, and they have skewed their numbers...(Goolsby using women's health and geriatrics in primary care numbers)....HRSA data shows similar primary care saturation to PA's and MD's. Most other researchers are frustrated by lack of good information about NP practice patterns, and they are reluctant to allow outside researchers to evaluate their data.

 

As far as PA wages. They will fall. All medical salaries will fall as there is a correction coming. I don't think based on current market models that PA's will fall much..no where NEAR to what physicians will see...(2-3% compared to 15+%)....

 

The simple fact is we need physicians...a lot of them. Current projections forecast a shortage of 130,600 by 2025 (AAMC)....we don't make enough PA's or NP's to even make much of a dent in that. Additionally, PA's and NP's are not physician equivalents. IOW, it's not a linear 1-1 substitution (IE; we are NOT physicians).

 

My predictions, PA's see 2-3% reduction (except primary care, which could see 10% increases [approx.]) and physicians see a 15-18% reduction (except primary care, which could see 8-10% increases).

 

It's coming. ACO models and new payment models like Prometheus will reduce spending per episode, which will of course, reduce reimbursements.

 

The good old days of 6+% annual increases in health care spending are going to come to a close.....perhaps not immediately, but it wasn't sustainable before...and certainly isn't now.

 

Wow really? i feel even better leaving specialty for PC. Thanks

 

Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk

[Joelseff]

Not really, most are predicting a 5-4 decision at SCOTUS to uphold. I think it will be 6-3. Kennedy and Roberts will both uphold the law. Scalia might too given his past decisions regarding the power of Congress to regulate commerce, although I think he will vote with Alito and Thomas in dissent. It'll be time to get the popcorn out. I'm gonna watch the whole thing.

 

As a workforce researcher, I must say that we have no idea what the NP workforce looks like. Their data is horrible, and they have skewed their numbers...(Goolsby using women's health and geriatrics in primary care numbers)....HRSA data shows similar primary care saturation to PA's and MD's. Most other researchers are frustrated by lack of good information about NP practice patterns, and they are reluctant to allow outside researchers to evaluate their data.

 

As far as PA wages. They will fall. All medical salaries will fall as there is a correction coming. I don't think based on current market models that PA's will fall much..no where NEAR to what physicians will see...(2-3% compared to 15+%)....

 

The simple fact is we need physicians...a lot of them. Current projections forecast a shortage of 130,600 by 2025 (AAMC)....we don't make enough PA's or NP's to even make much of a dent in that. Additionally, PA's and NP's are not physician equivalents. IOW, it's not a linear 1-1 substitution (IE; we are NOT physicians).

 

My predictions, PA's see 2-3% reduction (except primary care, which could see 10% increases [approx.]) and physicians see a 15-18% reduction (except primary care, which could see 8-10% increases).

 

It's coming. ACO models and new payment models like Prometheus will reduce spending per episode, which will of course, reduce reimbursements.

 

The good old days of 6+% annual increases in health care spending are going to come to a close.....perhaps not immediately, but it wasn't sustainable before...and certainly isn't now.

 

Wow really? i feel even better leaving specialty for PC. Thanks

 

Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk

[EMEDPA]

what pa's will end up with though is job security. places that can't afford 5 docs(for the price of 10 pa's) can afford 6 pa's and 2 docs....

[EMEDPA]

what pa's will end up with though is job security. places that can't afford 5 docs(for the price of 10 pa's) can afford 6 pa's and 2 docs....

[jdtpac]

Not really, most are predicting a 5-4 decision at SCOTUS to uphold. I think it will be 6-3. Kennedy and Roberts will both uphold the law. Scalia might too given his past decisions regarding the power of Congress to regulate commerce, although I think he will vote with Alito and Thomas in dissent. It'll be time to get the popcorn out. I'm gonna watch the whole thing.

 

As a workforce researcher, I must say that we have no idea what the NP workforce looks like. Their data is horrible, and they have skewed their numbers...(Goolsby using women's health and geriatrics in primary care numbers)....HRSA data shows similar primary care saturation to PA's and MD's. Most other researchers are frustrated by lack of good information about NP practice patterns, and they are reluctant to allow outside researchers to evaluate their data.

 

As far as PA wages. They will fall. All medical salaries will fall as there is a correction coming. I don't think based on current market models that PA's will fall much..no where NEAR to what physicians will see...(2-3% compared to 15+%)....

 

The simple fact is we need physicians...a lot of them. Current projections forecast a shortage of 130,600 by 2025 (AAMC)....we don't make enough PA's or NP's to even make much of a dent in that. Additionally, PA's and NP's are not physician equivalents. IOW, it's not a linear 1-1 substitution (IE; we are NOT physicians).

 

My predictions, PA's see 2-3% reduction (except primary care, which could see 10% increases [approx.]) and physicians see a 15-18% reduction (except primary care, which could see 8-10% increases).

 

It's coming. ACO models and new payment models like Prometheus will reduce spending per episode, which will of course, reduce reimbursements.

 

The good old days of 6+% annual increases in health care spending are going to come to a close.....perhaps not immediately, but it wasn't sustainable before...and certainly isn't now.

 

phyasst ,

Well said, as usual. What we should all be very proud of is how well our profession fares in the overall big picture in American society. The average starting salary of a new grad PA is approaching $80,000 per year with a mean salary in 6 figures for PAs with over 10 yrs exp., and in some subspecialties PAs can make greater than $150,000. So although we may be in for a decrease by your calculations, the profession as a whole will still be doing quite well. The comments that were made to paul2834 by the physician whom they spoke to(reference in the first post on this thread) should in no way deter a potential PA student or discourage any current PA students about their career path or future of our profession. I thought I would share the information below to demonstrate just how well we are doing.

 

Median Starting Salary for a non-MBA Degree

According to PayScale.com in June 2010, the most popular jobs for master's graduates with non-MBA degrees include social worker, school teacher, physical therapist and software engineer. Below are the median salaries for those who have four years or less in experience.

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]Job [/TD]

[TD]Less than one year experience [/TD]

[TD]1-4 years experience[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Social Worker [/TD]

[TD]$31,222 - $42,193 [/TD]

[TD]$33,291 - $44,774[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Licensed Clinical Social Worker [/TD]

[TD]$30,125 - $40,968 [/TD]

[TD]$36,326 - $48,426[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Elementary School Teacher [/TD]

[TD]$20,084 - $39,178 [/TD]

[TD]$30,550 - $41,338[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]High School Teacher [/TD]

[TD]$30,300 - $41,803 [/TD]

[TD]$32,518 - $43,846[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Sr. Software Engineer [/TD]

[TD]$71,226 - $94,365 [/TD]

[TD]$61,270 - $88,008[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Physical Therapist [/TD]

[TD]$50,937 - $60,996 [/TD]

[TD]$53,135 - $64,727[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Executive Director, Non-Profit Organization [/TD]

[TD]$34,017 - $54,505 [/TD]

[TD]$35,453 - $60,297[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[jdtpac]

Not really, most are predicting a 5-4 decision at SCOTUS to uphold. I think it will be 6-3. Kennedy and Roberts will both uphold the law. Scalia might too given his past decisions regarding the power of Congress to regulate commerce, although I think he will vote with Alito and Thomas in dissent. It'll be time to get the popcorn out. I'm gonna watch the whole thing.

 

As a workforce researcher, I must say that we have no idea what the NP workforce looks like. Their data is horrible, and they have skewed their numbers...(Goolsby using women's health and geriatrics in primary care numbers)....HRSA data shows similar primary care saturation to PA's and MD's. Most other researchers are frustrated by lack of good information about NP practice patterns, and they are reluctant to allow outside researchers to evaluate their data.

 

As far as PA wages. They will fall. All medical salaries will fall as there is a correction coming. I don't think based on current market models that PA's will fall much..no where NEAR to what physicians will see...(2-3% compared to 15+%)....

 

The simple fact is we need physicians...a lot of them. Current projections forecast a shortage of 130,600 by 2025 (AAMC)....we don't make enough PA's or NP's to even make much of a dent in that. Additionally, PA's and NP's are not physician equivalents. IOW, it's not a linear 1-1 substitution (IE; we are NOT physicians).

 

My predictions, PA's see 2-3% reduction (except primary care, which could see 10% increases [approx.]) and physicians see a 15-18% reduction (except primary care, which could see 8-10% increases).

 

It's coming. ACO models and new payment models like Prometheus will reduce spending per episode, which will of course, reduce reimbursements.

 

The good old days of 6+% annual increases in health care spending are going to come to a close.....perhaps not immediately, but it wasn't sustainable before...and certainly isn't now.

 

phyasst ,

Well said, as usual. What we should all be very proud of is how well our profession fares in the overall big picture in American society. The average starting salary of a new grad PA is approaching $80,000 per year with a mean salary in 6 figures for PAs with over 10 yrs exp., and in some subspecialties PAs can make greater than $150,000. So although we may be in for a decrease by your calculations, the profession as a whole will still be doing quite well. The comments that were made to paul2834 by the physician whom they spoke to(reference in the first post on this thread) should in no way deter a potential PA student or discourage any current PA students about their career path or future of our profession. I thought I would share the information below to demonstrate just how well we are doing.

 

Median Starting Salary for a non-MBA Degree

According to PayScale.com in June 2010, the most popular jobs for master's graduates with non-MBA degrees include social worker, school teacher, physical therapist and software engineer. Below are the median salaries for those who have four years or less in experience.

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]Job [/TD]

[TD]Less than one year experience [/TD]

[TD]1-4 years experience[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Social Worker [/TD]

[TD]$31,222 - $42,193 [/TD]

[TD]$33,291 - $44,774[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Licensed Clinical Social Worker [/TD]

[TD]$30,125 - $40,968 [/TD]

[TD]$36,326 - $48,426[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Elementary School Teacher [/TD]

[TD]$20,084 - $39,178 [/TD]

[TD]$30,550 - $41,338[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]High School Teacher [/TD]

[TD]$30,300 - $41,803 [/TD]

[TD]$32,518 - $43,846[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Sr. Software Engineer [/TD]

[TD]$71,226 - $94,365 [/TD]

[TD]$61,270 - $88,008[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Physical Therapist [/TD]

[TD]$50,937 - $60,996 [/TD]

[TD]$53,135 - $64,727[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Executive Director, Non-Profit Organization [/TD]

[TD]$34,017 - $54,505 [/TD]

[TD]$35,453 - $60,297[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[jdtpac]

jdtpac... as usual, you spend most of a page explaining how someone else didnt understand what you said, then go on to claim the higher ground. after repeated incidents where folks supposedly didnt understand where you were coming from, why dont you practice some introspection and figure out why you are being misinterpreted time after time? then you dont have to try to wax poetic and defend your honor like a musketeer.

 

as for a 5-4 decision that physasst mentioned as being a slam dunk... good luck with that. if you take comfort in that, then you definately are a glass is half full person. nobody knows where its headed, and whoever says they do is kidding themself. besides, even if it were to hold, it the system will collapse under its own weight well before then. we are greece, just not enough people know it yet. you cant spend 1.5 trillion more each year beyond what you take in and keep going as is.

 

PAMAC,

Spoken like a true right wing, card carrying Tea Party member who still thanks Rush Limbaugh’s bantering is the Gospel truth. If you didn't have your nose pointed up so high your ears could probably hear what others are trying to say. You're just another individual that jumps at any opportunity to criticize but when the tied is turned….. pop goes the weasel. In the future if you want to make a comment like this one from a previous posts:

probably because the question is being asked by a prePA towards PA's. whats the problem with asking the question and trying to get a vibe on the way the field is going? does that help? why are you so keen to wonder why topics come up on here?

Why don't you just do it as a sidebar and send me the question directly. I’ll be more than glad to debate your misunderstandings that way than in an open forum where we both end up looking unprofessional and the thread goes off-topic.

[jdtpac]

jdtpac... as usual, you spend most of a page explaining how someone else didnt understand what you said, then go on to claim the higher ground. after repeated incidents where folks supposedly didnt understand where you were coming from, why dont you practice some introspection and figure out why you are being misinterpreted time after time? then you dont have to try to wax poetic and defend your honor like a musketeer.

 

as for a 5-4 decision that physasst mentioned as being a slam dunk... good luck with that. if you take comfort in that, then you definately are a glass is half full person. nobody knows where its headed, and whoever says they do is kidding themself. besides, even if it were to hold, it the system will collapse under its own weight well before then. we are greece, just not enough people know it yet. you cant spend 1.5 trillion more each year beyond what you take in and keep going as is.

 

PAMAC,

Spoken like a true right wing, card carrying Tea Party member who still thanks Rush Limbaugh’s bantering is the Gospel truth. If you didn't have your nose pointed up so high your ears could probably hear what others are trying to say. You're just another individual that jumps at any opportunity to criticize but when the tied is turned….. pop goes the weasel. In the future if you want to make a comment like this one from a previous posts:

probably because the question is being asked by a prePA towards PA's. whats the problem with asking the question and trying to get a vibe on the way the field is going? does that help? why are you so keen to wonder why topics come up on here?

Why don't you just do it as a sidebar and send me the question directly. I’ll be more than glad to debate your misunderstandings that way than in an open forum where we both end up looking unprofessional and the thread goes off-topic.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

phyasst ,

Well said, as usual. What we should all be very proud of is how well our profession fares in the overall big picture in American society. The average starting salary of a new grad PA is approaching $80,000 per year with a mean salary in 6 figures for PAs with over 10 yrs exp., and in some subspecialties PAs can make greater than $150,000. So although we may be in for a decrease by your calculations, the profession as a whole will still be doing quite well. The comments that were made to paul2834 by the physician whom they spoke to(reference in the first post on this thread) should in no way deter a potential PA student or discourage any current PA students about their career path or future of our profession. I thought I would share the information below to demonstrate just how well we are doing.

 

Median Starting Salary for a non-MBA Degree

According to PayScale.com in June 2010, the most popular jobs for master's graduates with non-MBA degrees include social worker, school teacher, physical therapist and software engineer. Below are the median salaries for those who have four years or less in experience.

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]Job [/TD]

[TD]Less than one year experience [/TD]

[TD]1-4 years experience[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Social Worker[/TD]

[TD]$31,222 - $42,193[/TD]

[TD]$33,291 - $44,774[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Licensed Clinical Social Worker[/TD]

[TD]$30,125 - $40,968[/TD]

[TD]$36,326 - $48,426[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Elementary School Teacher[/TD]

[TD]$20,084 - $39,178[/TD]

[TD]$30,550 - $41,338[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]High School Teacher[/TD]

[TD]$30,300 - $41,803[/TD]

[TD]$32,518 - $43,846[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Sr. Software Engineer[/TD]

[TD]$71,226 - $94,365[/TD]

[TD]$61,270 - $88,008[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Physical Therapist[/TD]

[TD]$50,937 - $60,996[/TD]

[TD]$53,135 - $64,727[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Executive Director, Non-Profit Organization[/TD]

[TD]$34,017 - $54,505[/TD]

[TD]$35,453 - $60,297[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

 

Well, my sister is a Physical therapist, and I can say that figure is way off. According the the Bureau of Labor and Statistics, that's the average salary of a PT assistant. The average for a DPT is around 70K/year and my sister is making closer to 90k/year with 4 years experience.

 

 

And what field does a PA make greater than 150K!?!?!?! Other than a CT surgery PA who is has years of experience and is busting his hump all week, every week. EM, a highly paid specialty, can only hope to earn in the 120s with years (if not decades) of experience.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

phyasst ,

Well said, as usual. What we should all be very proud of is how well our profession fares in the overall big picture in American society. The average starting salary of a new grad PA is approaching $80,000 per year with a mean salary in 6 figures for PAs with over 10 yrs exp., and in some subspecialties PAs can make greater than $150,000. So although we may be in for a decrease by your calculations, the profession as a whole will still be doing quite well. The comments that were made to paul2834 by the physician whom they spoke to(reference in the first post on this thread) should in no way deter a potential PA student or discourage any current PA students about their career path or future of our profession. I thought I would share the information below to demonstrate just how well we are doing.

 

Median Starting Salary for a non-MBA Degree

According to PayScale.com in June 2010, the most popular jobs for master's graduates with non-MBA degrees include social worker, school teacher, physical therapist and software engineer. Below are the median salaries for those who have four years or less in experience.

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]Job [/TD]

[TD]Less than one year experience [/TD]

[TD]1-4 years experience[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Social Worker[/TD]

[TD]$31,222 - $42,193[/TD]

[TD]$33,291 - $44,774[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Licensed Clinical Social Worker[/TD]

[TD]$30,125 - $40,968[/TD]

[TD]$36,326 - $48,426[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Elementary School Teacher[/TD]

[TD]$20,084 - $39,178[/TD]

[TD]$30,550 - $41,338[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]High School Teacher[/TD]

[TD]$30,300 - $41,803[/TD]

[TD]$32,518 - $43,846[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Sr. Software Engineer[/TD]

[TD]$71,226 - $94,365[/TD]

[TD]$61,270 - $88,008[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Physical Therapist[/TD]

[TD]$50,937 - $60,996[/TD]

[TD]$53,135 - $64,727[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Executive Director, Non-Profit Organization[/TD]

[TD]$34,017 - $54,505[/TD]

[TD]$35,453 - $60,297[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

 

Well, my sister is a Physical therapist, and I can say that figure is way off. According the the Bureau of Labor and Statistics, that's the average salary of a PT assistant. The average for a DPT is around 70K/year and my sister is making closer to 90k/year with 4 years experience.

 

 

And what field does a PA make greater than 150K!?!?!?! Other than a CT surgery PA who is has years of experience and is busting his hump all week, every week. EM, a highly paid specialty, can only hope to earn in the 120s with years (if not decades) of experience.

[andersenpa]

Forgive me for oversimplifying the situation, but if supply and demand dictate that PA wages will stay high for years to come, then why are physician wages dropping? Are we finally meeting the demand for physicians? If my understanding is correct, I believe there still is a shortage unless we're taking that deficit and we're dumping it all into the mid level provider bin. I don't know very much about medical politics, but I want to learn, so I ask for your patience even for something so potentially naive as this point I'm conveying.

 

In a nutshell physicians are overcompensated relative to increasing costs of care (and spendthrift health organizations), and PAs have been undercompensated for the amount of care they deliver. While it was said here that PAs/NPs are not physician equivalents, I disagree in some ways. It is most revealing in primary care where services delivered are near identical (it’s the opposite in medical specialty and surgery). For the billing and collections many primary care PAs are underpaid. So in a sense they are getting their “just due”. Things are approaching a happier medium.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, PAs are interchangeable in some practices with NPs. We can't control their numbers and they are opening more schools and making it easier every day. As opposed to harder like PAs, not necessarily a bad thing, and we are opening more schools as well. We've doubled our numbers in a decade. NPs are making themselves look more attractive as well by getting independent practice, yet still work for MDs. Now docs get someone they don't have to supervise (less liability and paperwork), but still reports to them. I believe we need to do something to distinguish ourselves from them or else they may ruin it for all by creating an oversupply.

 

NPs are NOT making themselves more attractive by gaining independent practice, overall. Docs don’t like it. PAs certainly don’t like it. Who knows what patients think (some studies are very supportive of course, but the same can be said for PA and MD/DO care).

 

Independent NPs face the same financial restraints that docs and PAs do in practice ownership/pvt practice. The reality is most NPs 1) don’t practice as an NP (ok not most but many are licensed as an NP but work as an RN), or 2) work for physician groups or hospitals/HMOs/etc.

 

PAs and NPs are similar in many ways but the presepctives (prejudices?) of hiring practices will often treat them differently meaning their surplus doesn’t affect us as much as a pure surplus of PAs.

 

 

I don't think PAs salaries will ever fall as compared to our physician colleagues. They will eventually plateau, when and if the supply and demand factors become equal but even then I don't think you'll see a large decrease as what will happen to some but not all physicians subspecialties. I will say, that when we start seeing PA entry level salaries(in subspecialties) start reaching $150-160K range, which is beginning to happen, these salaries are probably going to plateau because they will be approaching the entry-level salary of some physicians within that same specialty. For right now, I think it goes without saying that the future is very bright and I don't think are younger colleagues need to worry about salary as much as they have to worry about their studies and passing the boards.

 

I have never heard of PAs entering a field and making the same as physicians in that specialty. The closest thing to it may be primary care, occ med (maybe peds?) where the gap is less. But.... entry level salaries equating physicians in the same field? This is certainly not the case in specialty (any board with a fellowship) or surgery.

 

The future is bright but those (hard to believe) numbers are blinding.

[andersenpa]

Forgive me for oversimplifying the situation, but if supply and demand dictate that PA wages will stay high for years to come, then why are physician wages dropping? Are we finally meeting the demand for physicians? If my understanding is correct, I believe there still is a shortage unless we're taking that deficit and we're dumping it all into the mid level provider bin. I don't know very much about medical politics, but I want to learn, so I ask for your patience even for something so potentially naive as this point I'm conveying.

 

In a nutshell physicians are overcompensated relative to increasing costs of care (and spendthrift health organizations), and PAs have been undercompensated for the amount of care they deliver. While it was said here that PAs/NPs are not physician equivalents, I disagree in some ways. It is most revealing in primary care where services delivered are near identical (it’s the opposite in medical specialty and surgery). For the billing and collections many primary care PAs are underpaid. So in a sense they are getting their “just due”. Things are approaching a happier medium.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, PAs are interchangeable in some practices with NPs. We can't control their numbers and they are opening more schools and making it easier every day. As opposed to harder like PAs, not necessarily a bad thing, and we are opening more schools as well. We've doubled our numbers in a decade. NPs are making themselves look more attractive as well by getting independent practice, yet still work for MDs. Now docs get someone they don't have to supervise (less liability and paperwork), but still reports to them. I believe we need to do something to distinguish ourselves from them or else they may ruin it for all by creating an oversupply.

 

NPs are NOT making themselves more attractive by gaining independent practice, overall. Docs don’t like it. PAs certainly don’t like it. Who knows what patients think (some studies are very supportive of course, but the same can be said for PA and MD/DO care).

 

Independent NPs face the same financial restraints that docs and PAs do in practice ownership/pvt practice. The reality is most NPs 1) don’t practice as an NP (ok not most but many are licensed as an NP but work as an RN), or 2) work for physician groups or hospitals/HMOs/etc.

 

PAs and NPs are similar in many ways but the presepctives (prejudices?) of hiring practices will often treat them differently meaning their surplus doesn’t affect us as much as a pure surplus of PAs.

 

 

I don't think PAs salaries will ever fall as compared to our physician colleagues. They will eventually plateau, when and if the supply and demand factors become equal but even then I don't think you'll see a large decrease as what will happen to some but not all physicians subspecialties. I will say, that when we start seeing PA entry level salaries(in subspecialties) start reaching $150-160K range, which is beginning to happen, these salaries are probably going to plateau because they will be approaching the entry-level salary of some physicians within that same specialty. For right now, I think it goes without saying that the future is very bright and I don't think are younger colleagues need to worry about salary as much as they have to worry about their studies and passing the boards.

 

I have never heard of PAs entering a field and making the same as physicians in that specialty. The closest thing to it may be primary care, occ med (maybe peds?) where the gap is less. But.... entry level salaries equating physicians in the same field? This is certainly not the case in specialty (any board with a fellowship) or surgery.

 

The future is bright but those (hard to believe) numbers are blinding.

[ventana]

Median Starting Salary for a non-MBA Degree

According to PayScale.com in June 2010,

 

 

 

 

I have seen some of the worst data ever coming from payscale.com - I don't know where they get their data but they tend to have just about zero connection to reality.... sorry but ifyou are going to quote some data source you need to research more about the data....

[ventana]

Median Starting Salary for a non-MBA Degree

According to PayScale.com in June 2010,

 

 

 

 

I have seen some of the worst data ever coming from payscale.com - I don't know where they get their data but they tend to have just about zero connection to reality.... sorry but ifyou are going to quote some data source you need to research more about the data....