Grievances with PA program. Help!

[PA2019WI]

So my program has some issues that myself and the vast majority, if not all students, are concerned about. But we're not sure if these problems are "normal"/to be expected, or if it's grounds for reporting them. Hopefully some of you can give some insight?

 

1. We have not received (at least) 3 lectures this semester and are told we are responsible for learning the material on our own. The lectures and lab were planned, but cancelled. We see this as an issue because we are paying tuition to be taught these things and clearly haven't received the education. We consistently have this problem with lectures that are not adequately taught.

 

2. Going along with the above, lecturers often do not follow the objectives in our program so again material isn't being covered. There was one time that a permanent faculty member retaught a class due to this problem, but there has been no help since then. There seems to be a lack of communication between the guest/adjunct lecturers and the permanent faculty which results in the guest lecturer not teaching the correct information. We're also concerned about the hiring process of the guest lecturers since many of them are not adequate. There is a lack of oversight of guests lecturers to the point that permanent faculty are not aware of what they're teaching unless informed by students.

What are the thoughts of your faculty?

 

3. Support from faculty seems to be lacking, or exists at a bare minimum. Some are there to listen which is helpful, but their responses are often empty promises and only serve to placate students for a time. Do other programs experience this? Advisors do not appear to help.

 

4. We have very limited hands-on experience other than about 4 standardized patient tests we've had. We're concerned our skills and interaction with patients could be affected as a result. How much experience do other programs have?

 

5. Communication overall between faculty and students is lacking. It takes days to get a response, and at other times there is absolutely no response at all; emails are ignored. This has been a major issue with all current classes of PA students.

 

6. There are often schedule changes and we are expected to abide by those changes and attend class no matter what. Though we are told that we need to keep any weekday available from 8am-5pm, we still have class outside of those times. This is frustrating because there is no consideration for our time as students, but we are expected to adhere to whatever the faculty wants to do, sometimes at a whim. It's frustrating because it shows a lack of consideration and respect for our time and as adults.

 

7. While there are often schedule changes and cancellations to our lectures, we are chastised if we are absent or miss a class. The hypocrisy is clearly a problem. In addition, some students will inform faculty if other students are not present. Do these things occur in your programs?

 

8. There seems to be a overall lack of organization, again with schedules, but with lectures being uploaded in a timely fashion. The guest lecturers also do not have access to them unless they've been uploaded to blackboard since that is the responsibility of the administration. This results in class being started late by 15-30 minutes.

 

Again, I'm trying to find out if these are problems throughout PA programs and something we just need to deal with. Or is this specific to mine and should we press for things to change and receive more equality?

Would you mind sharing your program name?

 

 

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[Maynard]

I disagree that it's a nuclear option. In fact the ARC-PA welcomes student feedback regarding programs that are inconsistent and put students in jeopardy.

 

I'm sure they do, but that doesn't make it a good idea. The ARC-PA has one job: to grant or take away accreditation. Filing a complaint with them runs the risk of making your degree worthless or, short of that, making you the most hated student in the program for jeopardizing everyone else's future.

[MedicinePower]

I'm sure they do, but that doesn't make it a good idea. The ARC-PA has one job: to grant or take away accreditation. Filing a complaint with them runs the risk of making your degree worthless or, short of that, making you the most hated student in the program for jeopardizing everyone else's future.

ARC-PA has far more options than to summarily revoke accreditation including pointing out areas of deficiency and instructing the school to correct it prior to any action being taken. They certainly want to know when schools are falling short of standards and urge people to contact them, even anonymously.

[PA2B2017]

Would you mind sharing your program name?

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Yes, I would mind. As Rev already said in different words - career-limiting move. ANYONE who thinks social media, comments on the Internet, or anonymity in a pseudonym is protection is likely to get an unexpected lesson one day.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are people in my cohort who needed some counseling on professional behavior and attire, but the leadership (including the program director & the dean over them) has also made statements, AND taken actions, that are retaliatory when they have been challenged about their shortcomings (even when done calmly, with solutions, with references to the ARC standards). No, my program isn't a brand new one either.

 

If a person loses their slot in a program, it's not like you can go enroll somewhere else. Even if the $$ investment made weren't a HUGE factor, for the vast majority, once you start somewhere, this is one shot and you don't get another.

[PreppyPA]

things like this were totally the normal within my program- and then some. there was just a total lack of professionalism with certain members of the faculty. there was a complete lack of respect for the student's time. our clinical coordinator was a joke. i have no idea how this individual has kept their job because they really couldn't do it. faculty members didn't get along with each other. students were thrown under the bus for a faculty member's shortcomings for the sake of keeping face in the community. faculty purposely made exams harder because they had grievances with certain students. and this is a relatively established program (which I will not name).

 

but as far as i know, everyone in my class has passed their PANCE. so the program is obviously doing enough to get us all through it (although i'm not sure how much of this was student effort to learn vs good teaching and prep). 

[Lauren R]

Your concerns are definitely valid. You're paying for an education and will be responsible for patients lives once you graduate. I would encourage you to talk with your director.

[PA2B2017]

Your concerns are definitely valid. You're paying for an education and will be responsible for patients lives once you graduate. I would encourage you to talk with your director.

Maybe for the OP. For mine, nope - to criticize is definitely a career-limiting move. While we are paying a pretty penny for this "education", it has been made clear that it's our "privilege" to be here, and we should be grateful, not critical.

[Statko]

ARC-PA would definitely be interested in knowing about this.

There's nothing in this student's list of complaints that I can tell violates ARC-PA's Standards.

Going to ARC with this is potentially academic/reputational suicide. ARC won't take anonymous complaints from anyone... students, community members, faculty, etc.

An identified student who submits a complaint to ARC will have their grievances heard, if it appears to violate a particular Standard, but ARC will immediately contact the program director to begin a fact-finding process. Program director is likely to feel back-stabbed, and this can affect how timely transcripts, the content of and how quickly letters of recommendation get sent out, etc.

 

A lot of the complaints here sound like typical didactic student misery to me. I would echo someone else's suggestion of getting a very level headed group of students together to schedule a time to voice complaints to faculty (there is probably a grievance policy in the Program's student handbook?) and/or ride it out and count the days to clinical rotations.

[JC-PA]

So my program has some issues that myself and the vast majority, if not all students, are concerned about.  But we're not sure if these problems are "normal"/to be expected, or if it's grounds for reporting them.  Hopefully some of you can give some insight?

 

1. We have not received (at least) 3 lectures this semester and are told we are responsible for learning the material on our own.  The lectures and lab were planned, but cancelled.  We see this as an issue because we are paying tuition to be taught these things and clearly haven't received the education.  We consistently have this problem with lectures that are not adequately taught.

 

2. Going along with the above, lecturers often do not follow the objectives in our program so again material isn't being covered.  There was one time that a permanent faculty member retaught a class due to this problem, but there has been no help since then.  There seems to be a lack of communication between the guest/adjunct lecturers and the permanent faculty which results in the guest lecturer not teaching the correct information.  We're also concerned about the hiring process of the guest lecturers since many of them are not adequate.  There is a lack of oversight of guests lecturers to the point that permanent faculty are not aware of what they're teaching unless informed by students.

What are the thoughts of your faculty?

 

3. Support from faculty seems to be lacking, or exists at a bare minimum.  Some are there to listen which is helpful, but their responses are often empty promises and only serve to placate students for a time.  Do other programs experience this?  Advisors do not appear to help.

 

4. We have very limited hands-on experience other than about 4 standardized patient tests we've had.  We're concerned our skills and interaction with patients could be affected as a result. How much experience do other programs have?

 

5. Communication overall between faculty and students is lacking.  It takes days to get a response, and at other times there is absolutely no response at all; emails are ignored.  This has been a major issue with all current classes of PA students.

 

6. There are often schedule changes and we are expected to abide by those changes and attend class no matter what.  Though we are told that we need to keep any weekday available from 8am-5pm, we still have class outside of those times.  This is frustrating because there is no consideration for our time as students, but we are expected to adhere to whatever the faculty wants to do, sometimes at a whim.  It's frustrating because it shows a lack of consideration and respect for our time and as adults.

 

7. While there are often schedule changes and cancellations to our lectures, we are chastised if we are absent or miss a class.  The hypocrisy is clearly a problem.  In addition, some students will inform faculty if other students are not present.  Do these things occur in your programs?

 

8. There seems to be a overall lack of organization, again with schedules, but with lectures being uploaded in a timely fashion.  The guest lecturers also do not have access to them unless they've been uploaded to blackboard since that is the responsibility of the administration.  This results in class being started late by 15-30 minutes.

 

Again, I'm trying to find out if these are problems throughout PA programs and something we just need to deal with.  Or is this specific to mine and should we press for things to change and receive more equality?

 

So I just graduated from a very old PA Program, established in the 70's, and we experienced much of what you are experiencing here.  I was reading this and thought this sounded all too familiar, so I wanted to give a little perspective if you don't mind.

 

1. Not receiving lectures is kind of a part of PA school.  We had a year-long course which almost entirely consisted of guest-lectures who would occasionally cancel based on an emergency of some sort (lecturers were usually MDs).  In those situations, we were emailed usually the night before and informed that our class would be cancelled, and were told to follow the syllabus and read up on the material that would have been lectured on.  While it is frustrating as a student (completely sympathize with you!), it's just a fact of life as a PA student... stuff happens and you just have to cope with it.  Additionally, medicine in general is a very broad topic, and requires some self-study because alot of it just can't be covered in the time-limitations of PA school. NORMAL

 

2. We would also have guest lecturers speak on topics that weren't really relevant to our curriculum because they spoke from their experience as MDs, and not really in a way that translated to PA practice or passing the PANCE.  I would suggest flagging those topics that you felt weren't covered well and reviewing them during self-study.  It kind of relates back to my point in #1 where some of the material just can't be covered as well due to time constraints and necessitates time outside of the classroom to fully comprehend it.  SLIGHTLY ABNORMAL

 

3. You have NO IDEA how many times this became a problem in our program!  We went entire blocks without hearing back from a professor via email, and who also refused to discuss any issues during class (which would deter from instruction, so understandable).  Our class developed a system which has been carried on to later classes: Our class president and vice president would attend monthly staff meetings with the faculty (usually alternating months).  During these meetings, they would voice their concerns to the professors and try to make sure they understood our issues and frustration.  It worked remarkably well, so that could be a possible solution for you guys!  SLIGHTLY ABNORMAL

 

4. Much of our hands on experience came from practice on each other during clinical lab in didactic.  To my recollection, we had a total of 5 SP's during the entirety of didactic year, as well as 2 exams where students below us posed as patients and multiple practical exams where we performed exams on each other in front of the professor.  Don't stress it too much, you learn more than you think and you'll be well prepared in clinicals.  NORMAL

 

5. See #3

 

6. This issue seems very frustrating, but it doesn't seem a viable complaint for ARC-PA.  If your program is anything like mine, we were expected to be full-time students with no other responsibilities outside of school (very unrealistic for those with families).  We had an issue where a lecture scheduled for 2pm was pushed back to 5pm because of the lecturers schedule.  Get to the classroom, the professor of the course had gone home for the day, but was nice enough to leave a sign-in sheet.  Point of the story, this happens as a PA student, and as a PA.  Schedules are relative, they change, and you're expected to be able to accommodate for those changes.  Things will change in your clinical year, so just trudge through the last bit of the madness!  NORMAL

 

7. Back to #6, PA student is your full time job, you'd be chastised for missing a shift at work.  It harkens back to professionalism.  The student reporting others missing, however, is ridiculous and diminishes class cohesion and unity.  Don't know if there's a solution for those over-achievers, however.  NORMAL, except for the tattle tails who need to grow up.

 

8. We had some issues where the guest lecturers wouldn't send out the lecture until after they had completed it to ensure that students listened without just taking notes while staring at a screen (decent tactic), but most had theirs on hand prior to class.  Again, I'm not sure this is an offense to the ARC-PA because these guest lecturers are loosely affiliated with the program and I'm not sure of any violations being committed other than being poorly prepared.  I know frustration is high in those situations, just keep a cool head, swallow your rage, trudge through it, you're going to be ok!  We had a class motto of "Just Keep Swimming" that got us through those tough days of didactic, it'll be over very soon!  ABNORMAL

 

Overall, I think your frustration is completely validated, but unfortunately, I feel that aside from discussing your issues with the faculty as a cohesive class, rather than 10 students running to a professor, I'm not sure much can be done.  All I can say is clinicals are fun, you learn and see a great deal, so just get through whatever time in didactic you have left and leave all of the negativity behind you!  Good luck!!

[CAAdmission]

Sounds like a load of millennial drama. Suck it up, plow through, graduate, move on, be happy.

[rev ronin]

Sounds like a load of millennial drama. Suck it up, plow through, graduate, move on, be happy.

Eh, I'm actually surprised at the level of unprofessionalism from faculty that several of the above posters are willing to tolerate.  But then, most of today's new PA students haven't ever held a real job and actually had to constructively confront other employees who weren't contributing.

[8404PA]

Maybe for the OP. For mine, nope - to criticize is definitely a career-limiting move. While we are paying a pretty penny for this "education", it has been made clear that it's our "privilege" to be here, and we should be grateful, not critical.

 

 

This is the inherent concern within the system which I think underlines many of the comments in support of OP. For better or worse though, those of us who crack on and grind will move on and succeed. I also echo what Rev said about the unprofessionalism in a profession rooted in military pride via my predecessors, which upsets me. 

[CAAdmission]

Eh, I'm actually surprised at the level of unprofessionalism from faculty that several of the above posters are willing to tolerate. 

 

I'd have to reserve judgement. It's tough to say hearing only one side of the story.

 

When I used to lecture a lot at a PA program, I intentionally never used Powerpoints. Students used to gripe and groan that they actually had to take notes instead of check email and facebook.

 

If the faculty are rank amateurs then I would have concerns. If the program made promises it is not keeping, that's grounds for concern. If the faculty have years of teaching experience and good outcomes, I am not prepared to concede that a bunch of snot nosed kids suddenly know how to best conduct PA school. It's like going to Arnold Palmer for golf lessons and telling him you don't like how he holds the club and you think you know a better way.

[Statko]

A couple of extra thoughts...Keep in mind why programs have adjuncts and guest speakers. These individuals typically present subject matters that the principal faculty don't have expertise or interest in.

 

The adjuncts and guest speakers are most likely PAs and MDs working out in the real world who are compelled to share their interest and expertise with students, usually for very little money (money is another reason why adjuncts/guests are used by programs, but that's another topic). These individuals are often great sources of clinical vignettes... if you're confused about something academic they're saying, ask them about how whatever they're presenting on shows up in clinic and how they treat it. I bet you'll remember what they say.

 

Anyway, these are not polished faculty members who have the time or training to write objectives, powerpoints, etc. These are also the same types of people who are going to be precepting you or supervising you in the real world, so it's good to develop strategies to adjust to their style while you're still in the didactic year. It will make your clinical year easier. You will get assignments, questions, or requests to prepare presentations from preceptors and there will probably be moments when you have no clue what they are looking for or want. And they will not be impressed if you ask for objectives or an outline of what they want covered.

 

In the didactic year, usually the content of guest/adjunct lectures is overseen or coordinated by a principal faculty member who has the challenge of making sure the relevant topics from the PANCE blueprint are presented and the relevant objectives are covered. If you're not getting objectives from either the adjunct/guest lecturer or a principal faculty member, that's a concern and a fair complaint. Providing objectives is an ARC-PA mandate (it's a "B" Standard, but please do not go running to ARC-PA about this... follow the grievance policy in your student handbook first). Using discretion about what types of battles to fight and who to bring them to is also good practice for the real world. If you were working in a hospital and saw something unsafe or felt something was unfair, you wouldn't run to OSHA or the Joint Commission; you'd go up the chain.

 

Vetting both adjuncts and guest lecturers is also an ARC-PA mandate, which your program director (not students) is responsible for.  HOWEVER, typically programs distribute student evaluations and surveys in which you can unleash your fair criticism anonymously. The trends from these surveys usually find their way back to ARC-PA in one form or another, so you do have a voice.

[dchampigny]

The defining question  you need to ask yourself is whether or not you are in danger of failing your boards as a result of the "grievances".

 

At the end of the day, when you pass the PANCE....very little matters. I think that you'll find yourself with the attitude of "wow, I really wasted my time worrying/complaining/lamenting" as opposed to "Wow, I'm really still angry with my program".

 

As was previously stated by other posters....just channel your energy into what you got into this profession to do: help patients. Make yourself the best PA you can be by complaining less and focusing more on what really matters....the patient. 

[rev ronin]

As was previously stated by other posters....just channel your energy into what you got into this profession to do: help patients. Make yourself the best PA you can be by complaining less and focusing more on what really matters....the patient. 

That's a fundamentally different perspective from mine.  Students shouldn't *need* to complain about irrelevant or unimportant stuff--the faculty get paid good money (from the students' tuition, I might add) to support the students' learning.  So when I hear that students are having to deal with unprofessional faculty (yes, being late is *unprofessional*), there are two major paths of response one can take:

* That which dchampigny advocates--keep your head down and move on.

* Mine, which holds that students and faculty owe each other mutual respect, and that breaches of that respect need to be addressed and fixed so that not only THIS class, but future generations of students, learn to be professionals in a professional environment.

[Boatswain2PA]

To the OP: I'm curious how much you will pay for this education (tuition, fees, etc...not living expenses)??

[bpr]

Not OP but also in OPs program. It's around 80k

 

 

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[PA2B2017]

Not in OP's program, but have comparable issues (as I have already shared). Also paying approximately $80K to the institution.

 

On a related note, I am not a millennial. I had a successful career prior to deciding to pursue this one. I have experience teaching -- at multiple levels including undergrad, continuing ed, and masters level (in a different field than medicine). I have put time and effort into the supposedly anonymous surveys of the course and faculty. I say supposedly anonymous because the program director clearly told us that if they wanted to see who made what comments, they could, on the pretext of professionalism.

 

I can't say for sure what my perspective will be after I finish the program, pass my PANCE, get licensed, and get past my 1st credentialing, nor what action I will take at that time (I've contemplated quite a few). Note: I was already warned by the dean that the school would (as they should, depending on the nature of any infractions!) share info to block granting of license or privileges. The dilemma is, however, even allegations at the whim of any person on the faculty, or staff, can then be extremely detrimental to the PA's future. I doubt anyone here would argue against the power of words despite the details/facts/reality.

 

One of the things that concerns me is the lesson younger PAs, like those who have very little 'real' job experience, as Rev says, are being taught -- 'do as I say, not as I do'. Any parent knows how well that works. And the more concerning lesson being learned is 'don't rock the boat / don't challenge authority, even constructively'. How is that lesson going to work out for the younger PA who has a mountain of debt and no idea how to manage the precarious path of a 'whistleblower' in a situation that actually involves a patient?

 

It's not just about me, my education, my learning to be a good clinician and provider. It's about all the PAs who are entering the profession, managing to pass the PANCE despite the gaps in their education for actually practicing medicine. Yes, we are all responsible for being life-time learners, but if the PANCE & then PANRE ensured that, why the current furor it? If just 'getting through' and passing the PANCE was the objective, why any objections to Yale's proposed mass-production of PAs via an online/distance-learning program?