PM_UR_PTs Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 I noticed that most PA schools put a lot of value on HCE/PCE hours, but wanted to know your thoughts on why it seems that most PA schools consider taking in applicants with thousands of hours of HCE/PCE with GPA's in the lower end of the spectrum (3.1-3.4), over an applicant with a GPA slightly above 3.4-3.6, but limited PCE (300-500 hours). I understand each school is different in their expectations of their applicants, but what is the true value of healthcare and patient care experience? Is it possessing the right attitude towards medicine? Is it because the clinical year is typical 12 months, and they want applicants that possess experience working to compensate for this limited time in a clinical setting? How much does possessing 1000+ EMT-B, CNA, or MA hours really contribute to being a good PA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbum Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 I think some of it has to do with picking applicants who are likely to be successful in a PA program. An young, inexperienced applicant with a 3.9 GPA might demonstrate an ability to succeed based on a track record of outstanding academic success. An experienced professional might demonstrate that same ability by having completed a previous training program, being intimately familiar with the realities of working in healthcare, knowing how to deal with patients/families, and overcoming the unique challenges of being a non-traditional student among other things. In that case, the stellar GPA might not be needed. (Though it certainly helps!) I don't know how much the previous HCE translates to a better PA in practice, especially after a few years. I would expect, however, that the experienced student might get up to speed a lot quicker in certain instances (for example, I would hope to have a less steep learning curve in EM than someone who came to PA school with 300 hours as a home health CNA for experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT2PA Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Look up the history of the PA. I think a lot stems from what the profession used to be: people who had long careers in other areas of medicine and transitioned to PA to fill a gap in providers. From there is has grown and (mostly) tried to hang on to the concept that PAs have a great deal of prior healthcare experience. Doug is correct - compared to MD students, we get less clinical time so it is to our advantage to have background knowledge in dealing with patients, working in healthcare, etc. Being a good PA isn't simply passing tests - it's having compassion, desire to do good for patients, dealing with the good, bad, and everything in between. Someone with great grades but no experience might go to PA school and realize they can't handle seeing blood or stool or watching a patient pass on. Someone with experience that has seen these things and still has a passion to help others, despite a 3.3 GPA, will still be a better provider. Getting A's in undergrad does not equate to a good provider (true of med students, too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren R Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 PA schools want their students to graduate, pass their boards and do well out in the field. Therefore, they definitely want someone who understands what to expect in the medical field and is still excited to become a PA. Having many clinical hours shows dedication to the field already. Someone with a lot of experience will likely have the drive to do well in PA school. Also, clinical reasoning will help you in school and as a provider. PA school is challenging and it takes not only intelligence, but also a passion for the field to really thrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Booksmart and street smart are two different things. I would rather have a well experienced EMT or RN PA student than someone who hasn't worked in a medical setting or is a complete social idiot with a 4.0 GPA. The empathy, the ability to function in different settings with multiple team members and the desire to stick with it count for a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanime Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Learning hospital jargon, the inner workings and dynamics of the system and how to function as part of a healthcare team are invaluable experience that will serve you well as a student and provider. Plus, there is the added bonus of knowing for sure that this is a career you want prior to actually having this career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdbhakta Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 You shouldn’t feel bad, I have ZERO patient contact hours... i doubt I’ll get an interview... everything I have ever done is in the laboratory, and it’s way too late for me to do any patient contact work since those beginner jobs can’t do anything for me beside “look good”... I was hoping my 200+ hours of PA shadowing would be a good alternative to my missing PCE. It really does suck to be in a position where I don’t have any credentials to get me into a patient contact setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGoLong Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 How could it possibly be "way too late" to get HCE? I got all mine while keeping my day job and raising 3 kids. You don't have to do it full time. I kept my day job throughout (even during medic school) and got my HCE starting as a volunteer EMT and later a part-time paid paramedic. (I must add at this point that do have a very understanding wife.) "Beginner jobs" are more than something to make you "look good." Schools want to know that you can deal with people when they are not at their best, understand and fit into the healthcare system, and are pursuing a job that you should do well at. If that takes a little time and effort to do, then so be it. I have a student this year in our program who graduated with excellent grades and couldn't get a job in his laboratory-oriented field. He became an assistant teacher in a nursery school to support himself and his wife while he was a PCA in a nursing home in his off-hours. His dedication and LORs from his employers sold us when we interviewed him. And he is doing very well in school. If you want this, think it through: If a school wants HCE (and requirements differ school to school), then you'd better give them HCE. They will get hundreds and hundreds of applicants besides yours and there will be plenty out there who will meet all of their criteria. By the way, I graduated as a PA when I was 60, so -- unless you are a lot older than that -- don't tell me that it's "way too late!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PM_UR_PTs Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 Thank you for all those that replied. I ask because I have about 300 total direct PCE (Unpaid, either for school credit or volunteer). I've done a lot of book reading, in addition to shadowing/volunteering at a private office for the last 6 months, but due to the large amount of students volunteering at my MD/PA's office, space is scarce and I was only able to secure one day a week. I'm fortunate to have been exposed to PA-S, PA-C, MD, and other professionals about working in healthcare during this time at the office, so I feel that I have gotten quality exposure. I wanted to know what the value was because although I don't have the quantity, I feel that I have quality hours, and the right mindset to work in a team setting in health care. I feel very confident that I can share my experiences with adcoms if I get invited to an interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsummerbell Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Thanks for all the quality replies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Recent article in june 2016 jaapa. Interesting. Objective: Healthcare experience is used by many physician assistant (PA) programs to rank applicants. Despite a large healthcare literature base evaluating admissions factors, little information is available on the relationship of healthcare experience and educational outcomes. We aimed to test whether previous healthcare experience is associated with increased success during the clinical portion of the PA educational process. Methods: Hours of direct healthcare experience reported on Central Application Service for Physician Assistants applications for 124 students in the classes of 2009 through 2013 were associated with a calculated average preceptor evaluation score for each student and with average standardized-patient examination scores for a subset of students. Results: Average student age was 28.7 years and median healthcare experience was 2,257 hours (range 390-16,400). Previous healthcare experience was not significantly correlated with preceptor evaluations or standardized-patient examination scores. Conclusions: This 5-year single institution pilot study did not support the hypothesis that healthcare experience is associated with improved clinical year outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT2PA Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Thank you for all those that replied. I ask because I have about 300 total direct PCE (Unpaid, either for school credit or volunteer). I've done a lot of book reading, in addition to shadowing/volunteering at a private office for the last 6 months, but due to the large amount of students volunteering at my MD/PA's office, space is scarce and I was only able to secure one day a week. I'm fortunate to have been exposed to PA-S, PA-C, MD, and other professionals about working in healthcare during this time at the office, so I feel that I have gotten quality exposure. I wanted to know what the value was because although I don't have the quantity, I feel that I have quality hours, and the right mindset to work in a team setting in health care. I feel very confident that I can share my experiences with adcoms if I get invited to an interview. Keep in mind that some (a lot?) of schools will not accept hours that are obtained as educational credit. Volunteer is also hit or miss - some schools prefer/require paid experience. These may just be technicalities or could make or break your application. Unfortunately book reading and watching someone else work isn't a great substitute for getting your hands dirty and doing the work yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdbhakta Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 How could it possibly be "way too late" to get HCE? I got all mine while keeping my day job and raising 3 kids. You don't have to do it full time. I kept my day job throughout (even during medic school) and got my HCE starting as a volunteer EMT and later a part-time paid paramedic. (I must add at this point that do have a very understanding wife.) "Beginner jobs" are more than something to make you "look good." Schools want to know that you can deal with people when they are not at their best, understand and fit into the healthcare system, and are pursuing a job that you should do well at. If that takes a little time and effort to do, then so be it. I have a student this year in our program who graduated with excellent grades and couldn't get a job in his laboratory-oriented field. He became an assistant teacher in a nursery school to support himself and his wife while he was a PCA in a nursing home in his off-hours. His dedication and LORs from his employers sold us when we interviewed him. And he is doing very well in school. If you want this, think it through: If a school wants HCE (and requirements differ school to school), then you'd better give them HCE. They will get hundreds and hundreds of applicants besides yours and there will be plenty out there who will meet all of their criteria. By the way, I graduated as a PA when I was 60, so -- unless you are a lot older than that -- don't tell me that it's "way too late!" You’ve replied with the same response on both of my posts. You’ve clearly been judging my situation as if I haven’t put any effort towards PA school, so let me clarify my position. When I said it’s "way too late", I speaking about this application cycle - Doesn’t meant I’m giving up. I’m not going to be able to get hours that are recommended or that I desire for this cycle, and I’m quite alright with that. I have taken necessary steps to prep for next year just in case I don’t get a slot. I have applied for a jobs and for volunteer positions (continuously for the last 6 months now) and those positions are getting taken up by others with more experience than I have. Some thing I have learned over these last few months - You can’t get experience without a job, and you can’t get a job without experience (no matter how low-paying the job is). I even offered to work for free in order to grab those hours and, still nothing. These aren’t excuses, because I still am applying everywhere I can for work to get the HCE, but that hasn’t discouraged me from applying to PA school. Please don’t assume about people’s situations (especially if you don’t have the full story). With all that said, I appreciate your advice and will say that you are correct about my application and that it MIGHT get looked past because my lack of HCE - but that’s only one section of my career path. I still have the LORs and essay to speak for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessieR Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 For everyone without HCE....I took a four week CNA course (9-5 everyday) and had a job as a CNA within a week of graduating from my program. Four weeks is quick and I started accruing patient care soon after. Nursing homes are ALWAYS hiring. After getting experience in a nursing home, you can turn to hospitals where they hire as PCTs....however in my experience this has been very hard (currently still working at nursing home). Nursing home experience is valuable HCE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdbhakta Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I just applied to a hospital near me for a PCT job, they don’t require CNA training because they have training of their own! I’m hoping to get a call back this week for an interview and get started by the end of next month (I’m leaving for LA in a couple weeks to take care of my CMEs - this is delaying the process) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessieR Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Yay! Good luck. If it does not work out, keep applying and stay positive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanime Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Good luck & stick with it! I don't envy people who are trying so hard to find jobs to get the experience they need... This was not at all the case when I first started in healthcare. It's so competitive now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_pavnp Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Some thing I have learned over these last few months - You can’t get experience without a job, and you can’t get a job without experience (no matter how low-paying the job is). I even offered to work for free in order to grab those hours and, still nothing. I empathize with your struggles. The job market can be enormously fickle and problematic. I managed to finally break through a system designed to punish and humiliate the employee by going to the inner city where need outstrips ego. Something to maybe consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacher2PAC Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 There is a great article in the JAAPA about this topic, it is Does previous healthcare experience increase success in physician assistant training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdbhakta Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I couldn't access the article but I did read the abstract - there are quite of few questionable things about this article: 1) Small sample size - there are only a 124 students used in this study 2) The schools of which they are looking at (HCE requirements) are not listed - They could have used only schools that require HCE 3) There are no real statistics used - it's a correlation study - this means they weren't looking at causation Just because someone has 16000 hours of HCE doesn't mean they will get in 4) There are way too many variables aside from HCE - this makes looking at HCE almost impossible - all of this study is based on the assumption that everyone has an even playing field. We don't - Personal essays and LORs play a major role in how a person is evaluated. Anyways, I'm glad you found this article that way people don't use it to rely on! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGoLong Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 A. We'll never have the full story about anyone who posts on the forum. B. Getting experience isn't easy, but it's not impossible. Most people have gone through this obstacle on the way to whatever they ended up doing. C. You don't need to solve the getting experience problem for everyone, or for you in every setting. You just have to find one that works for you. I'll leave you alone now! Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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