Ernie Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 During one of my classes, I was recently approached by another student who was asking me about the CASPA application process. Somehow, it came up that one of my references had done me a disservice by giving a personal reference and not giving a statement on my abilities as a heath care provider. I was able to overcome this in my interview by explaining that I don't come into contact with many PAs as a provider, but one of the programs that I applied to required a PA reference letter. The student the replied that she was shadowing a PA, so this wouldn't be a problem for her. I am not trying to offend anyone here, but how can anyone possibly think that PA shadowing is the same thing as actual hands on heath care experience? When I interviewed, there were Xray techs, paramedics, nurses, and others who had regularly been providing services to patients, and I guess I can't see how following someone around and watching them work can possibly lead to that person writing you a reference that speaks of your experience and knowledge as a provider, when you haven't actually provided anything. Am I off base here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonD Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Shadowing is yet another item used by adcom's to whittle down their applicant pool. Want to get into PA school? You have to show your commitment to the adcom by shadowing, working in an entry-level (usually) health care job, and getting really good grades. I don't believe any of these makes one a better practitioner, it makes one a better applicant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annemarreb Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 During one of my classes, I was recently approached by another student who was asking me about the CASPA application process. Somehow, it came up that one of my references had done me a disservice by giving a personal reference and not giving a statement on my abilities as a heath care provider. I was able to overcome this in my interview by explaining that I don't come into contact with many PAs as a provider, but one of the programs that I applied to required a PA reference letter. The student the replied that she was shadowing a PA, so this wouldn't be a problem for her. I am not trying to offend anyone here, but how can anyone possibly think that PA shadowing is the same thing as actual hands on heath care experience? When I interviewed, there were Xray techs, paramedics, nurses, and others who had regularly been providing services to patients, and I guess I can't see how following someone around and watching them work can possibly lead to that person writing you a reference that speaks of your experience and knowledge as a provider, when you haven't actually provided anything. Am I off base here? Health care experience and direct patience care experience are two different things... Shadowing doesn't fall under direct patient thus it falls under health care experience along with other experiences that not necessarily 'direct' contact with patients. Health care experience is not heavily counted as much as direct contact when you apply but of course like JasonD said it does shows commitment on the applicant especially if you have variety of HCE&DCE. Plus, shadowing is more like an experience that benefits you, the applicant, to make sure that you really want to be a PA for the rest of your career--- seeing a PA working first hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 But wouldn't any reference letter written by a PA that you have shadowed be a personal reference letter, and not one referencing your abilities as a health care provider? Since the PA has not seen you perform any skills or procedures, how does a refernce letter from that PA carry any more weight than a letter from any random person off the street? Or your boss from when you were a cashier at Winn Dixie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2full2eat Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 A little off topic, but this thread brings up a good point. I am currently thinking of ways to get a reference from a PA. I know I can ask one of the few PA's I've been shadowing. But that was about a year ago. I figured I should choose only one of those few, follow that one around for another 30 hours, and hopefully he can write mea good reference letter. Im confused though, what would he possibly know about me other than I came to shadow for a few hours, I seem interested, and a nice person. What could he say other than that? Confused about this, any body have advice on how to get a well written reference letter from a PA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cinntsp Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I believe that shadowing is useful for potential applicants that want to see what the profession is like before deciding to take the plunge into the application process or for those in healthcare that have no contact with PAs. Other than that, I find it silly that it is a requirement anywhere. As to the OP, every letter of recommendation does not have to address the applicant's health care skills specifically. I don't think a good letter of recommendation can be written after a few days of shadowing but a few weeks or a month could certainly afford the PA enough insight about the applicant to attest to their level of knowledge, intellectual curiosity, drive, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmood Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I think the requirement that one of your LORs be from a PA is ridiculous, actually, and results in desperate students seeking letters from professionals who don't know them at all and either write crappy, generic, letters, or lie like rugs. I think I understand why some schools have asked students to do this - it goes back to the problem of too many applicants not knowing what they are getting into - but it still sucks. Your letters should be from the people who know you best and who can speak to your skills as a provider or a person. If that means getting a letter from a non-PA health professional, so what? We work in healthcare teams with so many more people than our SP. If you can get one of those people to acknowledge your usefulness and potential, kudos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriarMedic Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Agreed. Which is why i did not have an LOR from a PA. I don't have working relationships with any and an LOR from an 8 hour shadowing day would have been frail next to an LOR from another healthcare professional that has supervised me in some capacity for over a year. I did not have a problem nor has it been brought up at interviews. Your letters should be from the people who know you best and who can speak to your skills as a provider or a person. If that means getting a letter from a non-PA health professional, so what? We work in healthcare teams with so many more people than our SP. If you can get one of those people to acknowledge your usefulness and potential, kudos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david89 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 just a quick question. what about a LOR from a post doc. i've done research for tw0 year with a post doc and he and I are pretty close friends now. or does the letter has to be from a faculty coming a university? the post doc knows me more than the professor. in fact the professor barely know me lol. anyone with experience on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Most of the places where I applied want letters from health care professionals who are familiar with your clinical skills, and specifically say that professors are less desirable than are HCP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Shadowing is a complete waste of time in my opinion. The ONLY reason I updated my packet with shadowing experience is because ONE school felt it was more valuable than actual healthcare experience. Nevermind my 12k hours of medicine as an Army medic. Nevermind my 3.93 GPA on prereq's. Nevermind my LOR's from my flight surgeon, flight PA and senior medic. None of that mattered since I didn't have shadowing experience identified. I contacted 3 PA's that I used to work with and after their rants on the stupidity of shadowing (which equates to you being smart enough to get out of the way) they send me notices and then I penned a letter to the school with my shadowing hours. It's a complete waste of time and the overall process of bean counting instead of looking at the person and their qualifications is growing VERY old. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Y. Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Been Shadowing for a bit now with a pretty cool PA , who is also a member on this forum. Its in the Level 1 ER and I can personally say, I have experienced quite alot. In fact i look forward to continuing this "volunteer work" all the way up until i'm prepared to sign in to be accepted into a PA school. The PA i shadow under allows me to do certain things under his supervision. Whether that equates to direct patient care experience, I am not sure. Some things I can briefly say I do as a shadow is be an "assistant" to the PA. He says to hand him something during a procedure, I hand it to him. He tells me to hold the patient so he can perform a better procedure I do it. But the important thing to note is, technically I am not allowed to touch the patients, but it is ONLY under his supervision I can do anything. He noted that I should be "proactive" and help the ER run more smoothly as a volunteer. :=D: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsRonSwanson Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Wonderful thread as I was just thinking about how to jazz up my application for next cycle. I have 20 hours of shadowing in three different services. I understand why schools would want some shadowing and I think applicants who don't work with PAs should do some shadowing to be able to answer the question, "how exactly do you know what a PA does?". I found the PAs I shadowed to be a great resource for the application process. Like others have said, I think a letter from a clinical supervisor, or any supervisor in general, would mean more than one from a doc or PA who you WATCHED for X hours. When I shadowed, I wasn't even allowed to touch or talk to the patients, just watch, how can the PA judge my bedside manner, leadership, or dedication to healthcare if I'm only permitted to stand in the background? I don't know, perhaps I'm just crabby because of the whole application/interview process... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 5, 2011 Moderator Share Posted December 5, 2011 shadowing is fine but it is essentially watching other people work. it is not health care experience but exposure to the various roles and duties of pa's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterallsummer Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Actually, at all of my interviews a lot of people didn't work in health care, or worked in a lab setting. They had shadowed and volunteered. A lot of people went this route. I think this board is very misleading in that most people think the only way is working. I myself have worked and shadowed. I think work is the best obviously, but shadowing gives your app a big boost and affirms them that you know exactly what a PA's job is and is not. I also do think you can do volunteer and shadow and still be very successful. However for those of us that have to work to pay rent, school, etc, working in health care is an obvious choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 6, 2011 Moderator Share Posted December 6, 2011 Actually, at all of my interviews a lot of people didn't work in health care, or worked in a lab setting. They had shadowed and volunteered. A lot of people went this route. . I think this has more to do with the programs you decided to focus on. if you check current aapa stats, the avg accepted applicant to pa school has 3 yrs of health care experience. http://www.aapa.org/your_pa_career/becoming_a_pa.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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