Moderator EMEDPA Posted May 4, 2011 Moderator Share Posted May 4, 2011 Tufts Medical School. They have a long history of PA utilization and support. a pa program at a prestigious boston medical school can only help make the profession more visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystaltide Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Where did you hear about it? I would for sure be interested, but I can't seem to find any info about it online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted May 4, 2011 Author Moderator Share Posted May 4, 2011 posting today on clinician1.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 If I had my way... The only new programs that would be allowed to apply for accredidation would be REQUIRED to be a part of a Medical School... and as the older programs that weren't attached to medical school family medicine programs lost accredidation, they wouldn't be allowed to re-apply until they were a REAL part of a medical school. IMNSHO... this whole PA program in the middle of a cow pasture with NO affiliation to any school of medicine does our profession NO GOOD... and there are entirely TOOOOO many programs. Just another opinion on the internet... Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Id rather see a PA program expand than another open. Create powerful centers of PA policy and research and discussion. BUT I wish the men and women at Tufts the best of luck ! My friend went to medical school there and spoke very highly of his experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystaltide Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 IMNSHO... this whole PA program in the middle of a cow pasture with NO affiliation to any school of medicine does our profession NO GOOD... and there are entirely TOOOOO many programs. Really? I feel like a huge aspect of the profession is serving rural under-served areas...isn't that the idea of these schools? Don't we fill a certain need in these areas that can't be met (or won't be met because few physicians want to live out there) otherwise? It just seems like an important part of the profession would be lost if we strayed away from this. Then again, I'm not out there practicing and having to deal with the lack of recognition from physicians yet. For what it's worth, my top choice schools all have medical schools, and I'm taking into consideration whether any courses are with med students. This is for the sake of educating my generation's new M.D.s about the important role of Physician Assistants in health care. I just feel like rural schools serve their purpose as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted May 5, 2011 Author Moderator Share Posted May 5, 2011 there are medical schools in rural areas that could open pa programs that have not.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigk Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 If I had my way... The only new programs that would be allowed to apply for accredidation would be REQUIRED to be a part of a Medical School... and as the older programs that weren't attached to medical school family medicine programs lost accredidation, they wouldn't be allowed to re-apply until they were a REAL part of a medical school. IMNSHO... this whole PA program in the middle of a cow pasture with NO affiliation to any school of medicine does our profession NO GOOD... and there are entirely TOOOOO many programs. Just another opinion on the internet... Contrarian I'm sorry, but I feel like your completely wrong on this one. As someone that is enrolled in your "cow pasture" type program that has a impressive history or doing EXACTLY what the profession was founded to do and that is taking care of folks in rural areas. I'm proud to be a part of this little program and what it stands for. Don't forget your roots. Your wrong on this one. Nothing against the medical school affiliated programs but our type program serves a purpose and a population that needs it. I hope you don't get your way. just saying in my VERY humble opinion. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physio Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 If I had my way... The only new programs that would be allowed to apply for accredidation would be REQUIRED to be a part of a Medical School... and as the older programs that weren't attached to medical school family medicine programs lost accredidation, they wouldn't be allowed to re-apply until they were a REAL part of a medical school. IMNSHO... this whole PA program in the middle of a cow pasture with NO affiliation to any school of medicine does our profession NO GOOD... and there are entirely TOOOOO many programs. Just another opinion on the internet... Contrarian Completely agree. I'm sort of biased going to a program affiliated with a med school but I think a certain set of standardization would be helpful to the profession. Kind of like a flexner report for PA programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted May 5, 2011 Moderator Share Posted May 5, 2011 If I had my way... The only new programs that would be allowed to apply for accredidation would be REQUIRED to be a part of a Medical School... and as the older programs that weren't attached to medical school family medicine programs lost accredidation, they wouldn't be allowed to re-apply until they were a REAL part of a medical school. IMNSHO... this whole PA program in the middle of a cow pasture with NO affiliation to any school of medicine does our profession NO GOOD... and there are entirely TOOOOO many programs. Just another opinion on the internet... Contrarian Normally I agree.... But this is nuts!! last time I checked there was only about 130 medical schools NATIONWIDE We are in the time in the development of PA that we can not possibly limit ourselves to only this number of schools - certainly an affiliation with a school is reasonable, but should allow many different PA programs to fall under the "accrediation" of one medical school - i.e. UMASS medical has only one main campus yet there is already 2 MA PA programs (Springfield and Mass Pharm) if we said that there could only be a PA program at UMASS medical that would mean we would loose two established great programs - if however you could gain an affil with UMASS medical and have "schools" in different towns that would be great. We are still tiny in number and to make a statement that there is to many schools seems very short sighted - if however the issue of the quality of new programs is at question then lets address this issue and not "thow the baby out with the bath water". In order to continue to grow we need $$$ for PAC's (horrible fact of life in the current country) The only way you get $$ is if lots of members pay in - Nursing has shown this (and continues to show that they are FAR more effective in politics) We need MORE programs of a HIGHER caliber - not less that are merely attached to a medical school. Just my late night thougts after have a 12+ hour day while the office is in it's first week of a new PM program (EMR is next...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Crystaltide: MOST PAs DO NOT work in "Rural Primary Care" soooooo... the whole idea of training them there so that they stay there isn't working. Remember by definition... PAs are "dependent practitioners" so they are to be found where their "supervisors" are... and according to statistics... it aint in rural areas... CraigK: ^^^ read the above^^^ Your program is NO different that the other 150+ programs out there. Those grads are NOT working rural primary care no matter how much YOU want to believe it an cling to the notion. The statistics doesn't lie. Also when you consider the change in demographics of the average PA program matriculant... it makes sense that these young females (now the typical PA student) DO NOT want to live and work in BFE with minimal dating, mating, marrying prospects. These folks who log on to this site... where most of their very first questions are about a $90-$100k salary, doing the least to barely meet the minimum requirements to get in, or getting someone here to basically write their "personal" statements and the prospects of a flexible schedule ARE NOT the folks lining up 3 deep to work in Fossil Oregon. Even if they were... there are NO supervising physicians there so.... as "dependent providers" it makes sense that there would be few PAs there. Ventana: I agree that a medical school could absorb multiple PA programs. This would also then sort of commit the medical school to deploying resources to the rural communities that these program are in. WIN-WIN situation... I disagree with the notion that we don't have enough programs. There are more PA programs than medical schools.... with MOST being opened with a purely financial focus in a short 3-5 yr span. PAs are becoming "a dime-a-dozen"... and the quality is HIGHLY variable which isn't good for our profession. There are too many programs which will only dilute and devalue our profession... and the general "disconnect" with medical schools diminish our credibility in the eyes of the general public, and physicians. Opening up a one room school house in the middle of a cow pasture and calling it medicine reeks of the Chiropractic plan... Just a few thoughts based upon what I've seen... Contarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystaltide Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Remember by definition... PAs are "dependent practitioners" so they are to be found where their "supervisors" are... and according to statistics... it aint in rural areas... I guess I was thinking of the ability of one physician to "supervise" multiple PAs, which could (theoretically) widen the reach of health care in these under-served rural areas, even if many physicians don't want to live in, as you put it, BFE. As long as PAs are willing to do it, it would work. BUT you have a good point: MOST PAs DO NOT work in "Rural Primary Care" soooooo... the whole idea of training them there so that they stay there isn't working. If this is true, then I guess it's just disappointing that the profession is getting farther from it's original intention. By the by, I am a young female applicant, and I recognize that there are far too many girls becoming PAs because they want "flexible hours to raise a family", and might not be willing to live in BFE for that reason. Just wanted to let you know that we're not all like that. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Contrarian Really Bro? Cmon C. LOL With all due respect and agreeing to disagree. Your program is NO different that the other 150+ programs out there. Yes, CraigK's program is different from about 120 of them. Those grads are NOT working rural primary care no matter how much YOU want to believe it an cling to the notion. Yes CraigK's alums are... The statistics doesn't lie. You are right they don't. PAEA has the stats, AAPA has the stats, ARC-PA has the stats, the Feds and the state has the stats. CraigK's program is a rural PA program. 70% of it's grads are in designated rural HPSAs and MUAs, working in FQHCs, lookalikes, RHCs, tribal run clinics and rural hospitals (some HPSA designated facilities) and one just got back from treating IED induced trauma (thank you for your service Navy PA-C). Some even moved from LA and SF and stayed. Also when you consider the change in demographics of the average PA program matriculant... it makes sense that these young females (now the typical PA student) DO NOT want to live and work in BFE with minimal dating, mating, marrying prospects. Which has been one of the differences in CraigK's program. It has had a different student demographic. And yes, if the typical PA student is from down on the farm or ranch they do stay, marry, have kids and pay into the tax base. It's a grow your own approach that does work.It is old school but it still works. These folks who log on to this site... where most of their very first questions are about a $90-$100k salary, doing the least to barely meet the minimum requirements to get in, or getting someone here to basically write their "personal" statements and the prospects of a flexible schedule ARE NOT the folks lining up 3 deep to work in Fossil Oregon. No they aren't. Wouldn't expect them to be wanting to go to CraigK's program. Even if they were... there are NO supervising physicians there so.... as "dependent providers" it makes sense that there would be few PAs there. I wouldn't say there are no supervising physicians C. C'mon now No supervising physicians? I admit the MD/patient ratio where CraigK is going to school isn't like the big city, but wasn't that the issue that Drs. Stead and Smith were trying fix by "fathering" the profession? It also helps when the state allows a doc to supervise 4 PAs. LesH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 For clarity... I DO NOT think that there are "too many girls" becoming PAs. I'm simply commenting on the FACT that the demographics HAVE changed from older, married, second/third career medically experienced men and women to young, single first career, female academics. Sooo... If you really believe "it's just disappointing that the profession is getting farther from it's original intention"... then it would seem that you would agree that even YOU may not be the ideal candidate according to the original roots. Think about it... Who in there right mind would send a new grad out to BFE with minimal supervision/mentoring. This wasn't a good idea back when pretty much ALL PAs (some few/rare exceptions) had 10-15+ yrs of hard corp direct patient care experience prior to even attemting to fill out a PA school application. So it really isn't a good Idea now... where as long as you present the grades...."experience isn't required"... from barista to PA by 21 yrs old... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Lesh... WE KNOW your program is "cut from a different cloth".... so YES I was a bit ahead of myself when I failed to ask exactly what program CraigK attended... but 1-3 programs out of 150++ Its an"anomaly"... "outlier" and NOT the norm to which I was writing about... and even it should be required to be a part of a formal medical school. No they aren't. Wouldn't expect them to be wanting to go to CraigK's program. Ummm.. Remember.... these are the folks that basically have NO qualms and generally think it ok to submit a "forum written" personal statement to gain entrance into any program... so I'm sure these same folks would have NO problem lying about their intent to practice rural primary care. So... I think its more accurate to say that they want to... and apply.... YOU just see through the BS and they never get called for an interview or if they do... you guys do a great job of smelling them out and declining to admit them. True or false...??? As for the SP ratio... yeah it helps, but it also takes willing physicians who aren't simply looking for indentured servants or attempting to establish patient mills... Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Lesh... WE KNOW your program is "cut from a different cloth".... so YES I was a bit ahead of myself when I failed to ask exactly what program CraigK attended... but 1-3 programs out of 150++ Its an"anomaly"... "outlier" and NOT the norm to which I was writing about... and even it should be required to be a part of a formal medical school. Contrarian We b Cool. But still can agree to disagree. I've been in two programs housed in medical schools, one connected to a FP residency and one out in a cow pasture..lol (that so funny BTDTX2 real California Cows..). The residency would be what I would recommend if there needs to be a connection, but as you say we're an anomaly. Thanks for getting my blood flowing. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Ummm.. I think its more accurate to say that they want to... and apply.... YOU just see through the BS and they never get called for an interview or if they do... you guys do a great job of smelling them out and declining to admit them.True or false...??? I would just say we are a very mission driven program. As for the SP ratio... yeah it helps, but it also takes willing physicians who aren't simply looking for indentured servants or attempting to establish patient mills... Agreed. We have been fortunate so far. Still, the country is no different than the city..greed can be greed. Now if a student wants to become an "indentured servant" for the NHSC or HPEF we can help hook them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 So as not to loose sight of my original point: PAs are becoming "a dime-a-dozen"... and the quality is HIGHLY variable which isn't good for our profession. There are too many programs which will only dilute and devalue our profession... and the general "disconnect" with medical schools diminish our credibility in the eyes of the general public, and physicians. Opening up a one room school house in the middle of a cow pasture and calling it medicine reeks of the Chiropractic plan... and allows our detractors to claim that we practice "assisting" a physician versus practicing medicine... since most of us (not all) didn't attend a "school of medicine"... Just a few thoughts based upon what I've seen... Contarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted May 5, 2011 Administrator Share Posted May 5, 2011 One of the reasons there is ROOM for PAs, based on my recollection of the statistics, is that the number of MD spots hasn't been growing with the demand. Now opening a plethora of NP and PA programs is guaranteed to lower the quality and compensation for PAs, just based on supply and demand. Unfortunately, if PAEA tries to rein in program expansion, then more of the midlevel jobs will go to NPs. I was in PALS class this week (only PA student and one of two males...) with an NP student who's doing everything online except for 500 clinical hours. She was impressed that I'll be doing 2500 or so. Still, she's got six years as an RN, and I have four as a volunteer EMT. In a couple of years, we'll both be applying for the same pool of jobs, more or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted May 5, 2011 Moderator Share Posted May 5, 2011 I still have to disagree with contrarian on the # of programs, sure med schools are about 130 and PA programs are about 150 - but the average med school class has got to be 200+ students where the average PA school class is likely around 40 (anyone have better data then my guess?) How many NP programs are there? We certainly have the ability to have as many actual graduates as the med schools - for math sake say 130 programs with 200 students per class is 26,000 new doctors per year - for pa's is is 150 x 50 = only 7500 new PA's peer year. There may well be certain cities with an excess supply of PA's but as a whole we are still seriously outnumbered by Doc's. My local hospital system has over 300 physicians in it, only about 20 PA's - and let me tell you the other doc's want PA's but they are just not around. As we mature as a profession the standards are going to change and this is a case we we need a big picture looking forward saying there is no reason when most doc's should not have atleast one PA with them - think of those #'s instead of the historical #'s of PA's and there is quit a shift in what #'s of graduates and programs we need to continue - we are coming into the main stream and to continue you have to grow - 'grow or get out of the way' I do think this means there is going to need to be another type of advanced certification or practice level that captures the fact that a PA with 10+ years experience in a field is FAR superior to a new grad or even a 1-2 year PA - and this should be reflected in additional levels of responsiblity - sort of the same as BLS vs ACLS ambulances..... No reason I should not be able to hang up a shingle, take on my own caseload of patients and run my own business in primary care as long as I have an official doc supervisor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystaltide Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 ... then it would seem that you would agree that even YOU may not be the ideal candidate according to the original roots. Think about it... Who in there right mind would send a new grad out to BFE with minimal supervision/mentoring. That's entirely true, actually. While I will have worked 2+ years full-time in direct patient care before attending PA school (plus additional full-time work in health care), I certainly would not say that PA will be my "2nd career". And at this point in time I can't say for certain how comfortable I would be being thrown into a practice with minimal supervision (I think it's safe to say not very at first). I hope that I have the judgment (as would the hiring physician) to choose a position for me that I'm prepared for. I was mostly commenting on the fact that I am not one of the "young females" that would be deterred from working out in the middle of nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 It seems difficult to imagine how a rural PA school could find faculty to teach the many disciplines of medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 It seems difficult to imagine how a rural PA school could find faculty to teach the many disciplines of medicine. I could see how someone could imagine that. IMHO if the program is in a state where there's a really good Area Health Education Center that is a resource. Or if there is a FP residency nearby there's a resource. Some medical schools have tried to increase their primary care rotations in rural areas so interdisciplinary training may occur. There is incentive from the hospitals and clinics to provide training and lectures because of the potential recruitment of the students into their workforce. Usually the PA, NP workforce is experienced enough to make the transition to the classroom without much problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 I hope that I have the judgment (as would the hiring physician) to choose a position for me that I'm prepared for. I was mostly commenting on the fact that I am not one of the "young females" that would be deterred from working out in the middle of nowhere. Thats cool... Just know that those physicians expect something significant in performance after agreeing to pay you $80-90k/yr plus bennies... The amount of "hand-holding" and willingness to teach will be as variable as individual personalities. The demographics HAVE changed from older, married, second/third career medically experienced men and women to young, single first career, "academics." So the problem I've seen is this current demographic of PA new grad "overselling" themselves and setting up expectations in their employers that won't be met. Academic Star (great test-taker) Interviews well (really just another test... great test-taker) Skate through PA program as the "gray-man" (great test-taker) Does well on PANCE (great test-taker) Interviews well (really just another test... remember this is a great test-taker. During interview demands/expects high salary but doesn't under/overstand employer WILL demand/expect high performance with minimal hand-holding in return) This person then starts to work and perform at a underwhelming overpaid MA level which set a notion of what a PA is and our worth in the eyes and minds of those who hire PAs. YMMV Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolcezolce Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 ummmm to return to the subject of tufts PA program specifically... any one know if they are even accredited? I can't find them on CASPA... and tuft's website is pretty bare in regards to the PA program... sorry to interrupt i'm just being a curios pre-PA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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