bradtPA Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Why do you constantly feel the need to berate, belittle, and bully people on this forum? You have questioned my intellect, now you question my bedside manner and how I deal with patients??? You sir, do not know me, and have no factual basis to make such claims. I cannot speak for what you and your patients converse about, nor is it really any of my business. I can state that in my relatively short two and a half years practicing as a PA I have never been asked where I went to school as a PA. The only thing that has EVER been brought up is the matter of "I want to see the doctor and not the PA" , which happens just as often to the other PA who did graduate from a program attached to a medical school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgatus Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Another reason why your position is silly is because your claim that patients don't care and don't ask is contrary to the THOUSANDS of posts on this very forum detailing how WE, collectively, must constantly educate "one patient at a time" in the exam rooms we practice in daily... and how many of us are growing weary of this chore but have successfully convinced and converted patients "skeptical" of our knowledge, skills, and medical understanding, who were insisting on ONLY seeing a physician to happily seeing PAs for their health care. The posts you speak of tend to be explanations of what a PA is and their role in the healthcare setting. I don't recall many (if any) posts where patients inquire if your school was connected to a medical school or not. I'm curious if proactively explaining that your PA school is connected with a medical school has as much effect as you're saying. Guess I'll find out in clinicals. It just seems like what Brad is saying is more plausible and realistic. The distinction between a PA/MD is obvious to a patient. The distinction between different types of PA schools and their connections to med schools... I just can't imagine that patients are as concerned about it as you're suggesting. Again, guess I'll find out with experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Ha... ha... So NOW you are the victim...???:heheh: If the education at a non-medical school PA program is not sub-par, then you have NO GROUNDS to your claim to close them other that a screwed up notion that they have to be tied to a medical school for prestige. And to insinuate that the military is full of bumpkins and thugs is just downright insulting to this retired military member. In regards to educating a certain board member, remember that sometimes you go way too far and insert your foot down your mouth so far it tickles your anus. IMHO this is one of those times.... As someone who seems to be proud of their military service... I'm sure YOU understand the phrases "Expression shot across the bow," "Immeadiate Reaction to Threats," "Skirmish Line," "Rules of Engagement," "Respond with Overwhelming Force," "Violence of Action"... Don't start none... it won't be none... on this two-way live fire range... full-metal-jacket... no blanks.. :wink: I cannot speak for what you and your patients converse about, nor is it really any of my business. See that's the problem... you already tried to and are NOW moon-walking up off of it.. Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 The posts you speak of tend to be explanations of what a PA is and their role in the healthcare setting. I don't recall many (if any) posts where patients inquire if your school was connected to a medical school or not. I'm curious if proactively explaining that your PA school is connected with a medical school has as much effect as you're saying. Guess I'll find out in clinicals. The posts I speak of tend to comment on or suggest how weary many PAs have become with CONSTANTLY having to fight the resistance of patients and explaining what a PA is and that YES we do practice medicine. Many of those posts place a large part of the blame squarely on the LACK of PA promotion by the AAPA. I'm suggesting that another part of this problem MAY be the confusion that patients AND most other clinicians have over who we are, what we do and how we are trained. Sooo... the notion I put forth above could could help with the general understanding of what we do and how we are trained in a way that makes sense to physicians and the lay public. Simply PUT.... as far as I can tell, most folks think that people who practice medicine... attend some sort of MEDICAL SCHOOL. It just seems like what Brad is saying is more plausible and realistic. The distinction between a PA/MD is obvious to a patient. The distinction between different types of PA schools and their connections to med schools... I just can't imagine that patients are as concerned about it as you're suggesting. Again, guess I'll find out with experience. But then again... here is the crux of the DISCONNECT... I'm suggesting that patients and/or other clinicians are ONLY concerned about whether or not we were affiliated with a Med School when its to THEIR advantage. I don't think the average patient cares. Thats NOT what my premise has been... but folks read what I wrote, and instead of simply reading it for what it was worth, got all "butt-hurt" and missed the point of the message. In plain language: People are stupid. In this society... We can't trust them to understand that not everyone called "Doctor" is a physician so to protect them from their stupidity, we forbid other people with doctorate degrees from being called "doctor" around them. People are stupid. We can't trust them to understand that not everyone who "practices medicine" is a physician. People are stupid. Most seem to think that the only way to competently, legitimately "practice medicine" is to attend a "medical school" and if you didn't attend "medical school"... you will always be second tier and suspect... so they WILL refuse/resist/challenge your knowledge, and attempt to provide care... People are stupid. So when you stand in front of them and state that YOU "practice medicine"... they assume you are a physician, but as soon as YOU state that you are NOT a physician... their eyes usually tell the story that they now think you are a MA or simply over-inflating your role, scope of practice and training. Why.... because in this society... historically, only physicians "practice medicine" by attending "medical school" to do so. People are stupid. Some of these stupid people are also physicians who will watch you practice gold standard medicine... on par with ANY/ALL physicians in your community and practice setting... but will refuse to refer patients to you, refuse to talk to you and insist that they only discuss patient care with physicians, dismiss your clinical knowledge and/or care out of hand, resist any sort of parity, and actively seek to discriminate against all non-physicians (physicians lounge, parking, meals, call rooms, on-call pay, etc.) simply because, you didn't attend a "medical school." Soooooooo... Since PEOPLE ARE STUPID and ain't no cure for STUPID... This is my reasoning for suggesting that ALL PA programs be directly related in a truly meaningful way to ALL Schools of Medicine. Not because I think they do it better or that PA programs have thus far done a poor job exposing us to the practice of medicine. I'm just tired of being told "GO TO MEDICAL SCHOOL" if you want any respect from physicians and patients or parity regardless of performance. It has been my experience that being able to state "I attended XYZ SCHOOL OF MEDICINE for my Physician Assistant training" when asked about your training, credentials and experience... goes a Looooong way in easing resistance and doubt about your ability, knowledge and understanding of medicine from both patients AND physicians. At this point, you have a opportunity to confirm your ineptness and incompetence without it automatically being assumed... I don't think that the average patient cares whether a PA program is part of a medical school. That was not my point. Just like I don't think that the average patient cares whether a PA program is a Certificate/AAS/Bachelors/Masters/D.Sci... My point was... most people are stupid and only seem to understand that to "practice medicine," one must attend a "school of medicine." So lets stop fighting the stupidity and affiliate with schools of medicine... Or we can armor up and start trying to retrain the entire country on what a "doctor" REALLY is and how American Physicians "co-opted" the titie because physicians everywhere else on this planet earn bachelors in medicine and how any school that teaches medicine is... in reality a "medical school." But I have a feeling that this canpaign would be a uphill, and ardous one compared to simply ensuring that all PA programs are intimately paired with ALL physician programs. Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgatus Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 You think connecting PA programs specifically with med schools gives you an advantage in your relationships with physicians? Comments, especially like "I attended XYZ school of medicine for PA training" can be dangerous. I know SDN can be a bubbling pot of negativity at times but read part of this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=763086 Check out the 2nd and 3rd pages, particularly Arai's comments and the feed back he received. Here's one of his comments: "Here's the deal: medical school no longer automatically means a "MD/DO program." Not in in the year 2010. If you want to get with the times, you'll understand that medical school can also encompass a "PA program." Why? PA students at my university attend the school of medicine, they study medicine, and they receive a graduate degree in medicine. But don't worry, no PA is going to say they went to medical school without adding the fact that it was a PA program and no PA will claim to be a doctor. PAs are trained to work with a physician-leader. As a physician, wouldn't you want such a person to be trained by the same school that trained you? I would. So if a PA says they went to med school to become a PA, cut them some slack and appreciate that they are trying to make your job easier." Sounds good, right? Have a look at the responses to that and tell me that, even though Arai's stance on the argument is sound, that he didn't attract a stinging backlash. Even though comments like that can be reassuring to patients, they can just downright piss off some physicians because in their eyes you're trying to equate yourself to something you're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Sigh... Vulgatus, FYI... We have been dealing with the SDN nonsense for atleast a decade... so you should know that returning here with any SDN based/derived opinion means very little here... 1.) SDN isn't the real world... 2.) SDN is chock full of "physicians in training." Students who don't know jack about the real world. Many/Most whom resent the fact that they took the hard road to the practice of medicine and now owe $200k in loans while the traditional PA-C got-er-done in 24 months for less than $40k (after decades of previous experience) so naturally... they are a bitter bunch over there. 3.) MOST of those "students" over there are 21yr old "gunners" with minimal real life experiences and social retards who have NEVER even worked with a PA-C or PA student. So their opinion of our profession is based upon what...??? 4.) These are the same folks who claim that the entire 11 yrs it takes to become a FP physician should be recognized, but would readily label a EMPA-C with 15yrs previous experience as a Medic in a Urban setting, 2 bachelors degrees and a Masters degree undertrained. The fact that the difference in length of training between Physicians and PAs is but 6-8 months... due to the med students having summers off and the 4th yr being traditionally used to interview for residency slots with minimal clinical time, and that the first 4 yrs of the 11 total were spent in undergrad NOT studying medicine... made no difference to these people. 5.) "Because In their eyes"... stating that we "practice medicine" is erroneous and somehow misleading and according to them, trying to be something that we are not. Those folks won't even admit that we practice medicine and generally insist that we only practice "assisting a physicians" (see the part about stupid people who happen to be physicians above)... so their opinion about what we call ourselves, where, or how we are trained, or how we descibe that training isn't woth the bandwith it occupies. Please DO NOT post links to that site on this forum... Thanks Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgatus Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I realize that SDN is not the real world and never claimed so. I posted the link because it specifically hits at part of what you're arguing. I don't completely debunk everything that is said simply because it's from SDN. Are some of the posts purely negative and hold no value? Sure. But there is some good dialogue as well and that's what I tend to focus on. Sorry, if that offended you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Not offended... its just you are NEW here and we.... who have been here for yrs have been down this road of thinking that ANYTHING written on SDN has some validity and/or usefulness here. The reason I asked you NOT to post links to that site on this forum is because historically, when links are posted here... the trolls from there attack here like rabid animals. Also, while you are over there.... please pay informal attention to how often PAs and NPs get banned or sanctioned for responding in kind to disrespectful posts about PAs and NPs... notice the bias and heavyhandedness applied to midlevels there. Go back to that thread you linked here and read the credentials of all the banned posters in those threads in the RN/NP/PA section of SDN. Thanks Contrarian btw.... NO I've NOT been banned from there. Just erased the bookmark to that site from my computer back in Oct... and hadn't been to the site in about a yr due to lack of interest in the opinions of the students there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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