Assistant Physician law passed.

[Chelsey Weaver]

It's sad because the nurses at the private practice I work at refers to the PA as a nurse practitioner consistently. Nurses undermine her because they don't realize she is a professional just like an NP or MD. When I've told them I am going to PA school, they have no idea it is a time consuming and competitive process. One office worker asked me, "so a PA works under an NP, right?" ????

[KMD16]

One office worker asked me, "so a PA works under an NP, right?" ????

We do! They provide supervision to PAs!! We're assistant to the NurseP/NP & the AP. :)

[medic25]

It's sad because the nurses at the private practice I work at refers to the PA as a nurse practitioner consistently. Nurses undermine her because they don't realize she is a professional just like an NP or MD. When I've told them I am going to PA school, they have no idea it is a time consuming and competitive process. One office worker asked me, "so a PA works under an NP, right?" ????

If it helps, the NP's in our ED constantly get referred to as PA's; our group is probably 75% PA so most techs and nurses forget who the NP's are.

[Chelsey Weaver]

Medic25,

 

That's so refreshing to hear. It probably depends on the density of PAs in the area. I would like to see the awareness of PAs in my area increase. While NPs and PAs are similar, they have two completely different paths of getting to their professions.

[Chelsey Weaver]

PS I am a totally newbie to this site. I don't know how to make new topics or if I'm allowed to. I want to ask a question and get advice, but don't know where to start. If anyone would like to help, please do so!! And thank you in advance!

[DiggySRNA]

PS I am a totally newbie to this site. I don't know how to make new topics or if I'm allowed to. I want to ask a question and get advice, but don't know where to start. If anyone would like to help, please do so!! And thank you in advance!

Choose a thread (category) and simply click "start a new topic" in the right hand corner. And Waa bam!

[KMD16]

Medic25,

 

While NPs and PAs are similar, they have two completely different paths of getting to their professions.

True.

 

 

[Acromion]

Medic25,

 

That's so refreshing to hear. It probably depends on the density of PAs in the area. I would like to see the awareness of PAs in my area increase. While NPs and PAs are similar, they have two completely different paths of getting to their professions.

 

I don't see NP's and PA's as all that similar. I went to a school with an FNP program and it had more fluff than a lemon meringue pie. What were they learning? I couldn't really figure it out. This was NOT true of the CRNA program.  I'm sure there are really great NP schools that have all the scientific rigor of PA school, but not where I live.

[Chelsey Weaver]

Yes, my immediate observation is that PAs have a more arduous path than NPs. At least in my office setting, however, there isn't much of a difference in their job duties.

[True Anomaly]

Yes, my immediate observation is that PAs have a more arduous path than NPs. At least in my office setting, however, there isn't much of a difference in their job duties.

 

It's generally agreed that at about five years out of school in the same specialty, an NP and a PA will practice pretty much the same way.  But the education of the two couldn't be any more different.

[db_pavnp]

Well, they could be more different.

[andersenpa]

The utilitarian apporach would be to evaluate NP (and PA) clinical outcomes as the comparison.

Otherwise it's just sitting in judgement of another profession, which amounts to diddly squat.

[Acromion]

It's generally agreed that at about five years out of school in the same specialty, an NP and a PA will practice pretty much the same way.  But the education of the two couldn't be any more different.

 

So, what you are saying is that in 5 years time the typical NP catches up to the average PA, but the PA stagnates the same within that timespan?

[Guest JMPA]

It's generally agreed that at about five years out of school in the same specialty, an NP and a PA will practice pretty much the same way.  But the education of the two couldn't be any more different.

they will never practice the same way.

[EMEDPA]

I think even before your pa or np training prior experience plays a huge role. I did things as a medic (and still do) that none of my pa/np colleagues ever do because they never did it and are either afraid to try or can't do it because they don't have the #s to do it. For example, I am the only PA in my group (at my primary job) who intubates and runs codes without a doc in the room. I'm the only one to ever place an IO, deliver a baby, etc. All medic level skills that the former medical assistants and CNAs never learned. when codes happened on pa school rotations I helped. they watched.

I also have more of a cowboy/medic attitude due to prior training so am willing to step up and try new things if a specialist wants to teach faster than my colleagues- I'm the only one to do paracentesis, also the only one to inject phenylephrine into a pt with priapism, do nasopharyngoscopy, etc

The only way for many of my colleagues to catch up in terms of scope of practice would be to do a residency or get a much better job where docs actually teach-a rarity today ( at least on the west coast where the job of PAs is mostly to "move the meat".)

[andersenpa]

So, what you are saying is that in 5 years time the typical NP catches up to the average PA, but the PA stagnates the same within that timespan?

All beverages arrive to room temperature

[PACdan]

All beverages arrive to room temperature

So remind me why am I taking/paying for more than double the # of graduate credits and quadruple the clinical rotation hours... just to arrive at the same place?

 

Maybe the NPs ARE smarter. :)

[db_pavnp]

One suggestion might be because you would demand the very best education for yourself, but at the same time we don't often have the option of demanding the very best in all aspects of life.

 

In my experience, people who work in healthcare are simply over educated for the roles they play.

[andersenpa]

So remind me why am I taking/paying for more than double the # of graduate credits and quadruple the clinical rotation hours... just to arrive at the same place?

 

Maybe the NPs ARE smarter. :)

A doc may ask the same question when they look at PAs.

[PACdan]

A doc may ask the same question when they look at PAs.

They get paid A LOT more. And have the ruling class status. The doc who wonders why he spent more time/money on med school need only look to his paycheck for the answer. Should he or she become sour.

 

However; NPs have higher salary ranges for some cross-listed jobs with PAs, and better practice rights in some states. While the PA has more formal training.

 

Call a spade a spade.

[andersenpa]

They get paid A LOT more. And have the ruling class status. The doc who wonders why he spent more time/money on med school need only look to his paycheck for the answer. Should he or she become sour.

 

However; NPs have higher salary ranges for some cross-listed jobs with PAs, and better practice rights in some states. While the PA has more formal training.

 

Call a spade a spade.

The point is that no one is smarter, each group gets value for their education.

 

There is a great deal of persepective in this, and if you read the sentiment among docs nowadays, they are not all satisfied in their compensation alone. In general when it comes to being an employee (which docs and PAs are most of the time), we place more value on worklife satisfaction than pay. People are more likely to leave a job because of professional disatisfaction than pay. We even have a PA here who has mentioned many times about how he left a higher paying position to pursue a better QOL.

 

The PA-MD comparison in relation to this becomes even more apparent in the cognitive fields (PC, FP, peds etc) as the compensation split between the two is far less than in it is in procedure-rich or surgical specialties.

 

Overall PA salaries are higher than NPs, and among most specialty specific comparisons as well. There are a few outliers, and the craziness at the VA is not the community standard for the great majoroty of us working outside their system.

 

Practice rights have NOTHING to do with education. 

 

The main point is you don't deserve particular pay or glory because of what preceded you; you get it for what you contribute going forward.

[PACdan]

Practice rights have NOTHING to do with education. 

 

The main point is you don't deserve particular pay or glory because of what preceded you; you get it for what you contribute going forward.

 

Don't practice rights have everything to do with education? Like, you can't practice as a physician if you don't first go to medical school? (amongst other things later).

 

I'm not insisting that PAs have some lordly status over NPs. I'm just a bit muddled and miffed, in the here & now, that those required to do less work/have less exposure than PA students are being directly equated with them. It's discounting what the PAs are achieving to say 'you're just the same as someone who put in a fraction of the time and work'. I think by drawing no distinction whatsoever between the professions, you're doing the PAs and PA students some kind of disservice. Does that make sense?

 

I get what you're saying about five years down the road. What you did/knew then matters a lot less than what you're doing/know now. A Harvard trained surgeon can suck 10 years out and a surgical PA can be a rockstar compared to him. So maybe, if we are to draw distinctions between PAs and NPs with broad comparisons, they should be qualified with "while in school" or "at graduation". That's fair, IMO.

 

Sic transit gloria

[andersenpa]

I don't read latin so forgive me if I missed something

 

Practice rights are determined by legislative strides. The very fact that NPs have independence says it all. Pas may have more clinical hours and may trump in other categories as well, but nursing has the lobby and the dollars. And that's what mattered in getting their professional freedom. It had nothing to do with how many hours they did in year 2.

 

I have no responsibility to draw any distinction between PA and NP. The distinction is clear to anyone with half a brain. 

It's futile to call foul on the fact that NPs have carved out a place for themselves and developed training programs that get them licensed to do what PAs and docs do. They are trained and they have a growing file of quality metrics to support their practice. Their patients do well. 

 

It's not a stretch to compare it to the same things that docs call on PAs and NPs. Many of them feel neither of us belong. But we do, we are here, and getting miffed accomplishes nothing.

[EMEDPA]

I don't read latin so forgive me if I missed something

 

"all glory is transient/fading". One of george's patton's favorite sayings.

[db_pavnp]

Anderson says it well and is consistent.

 

I think an aggressive RN proponent would suggest that they have advantages which are lost in any program which proposes to toss 12 months of didactic education at a patient care tech.  And then the NP route is clearly disinterested in four week rotations in twelve different specialties.   They reject the PA model of education no more or less violently than the PAs who suggest the NP route is a non-science, non-medical curriculum.  Of course their lobby dollars are important and they are inseparable from their successes, but they have a line of argumentation to go along with those dollars.