Assistant Physician law passed.

[PACdan]

They do have the brand recognition down pat.

 

We can have common enemies too. I just saw a commercial for Cancer Treatment Centers of America that featured a Naturopathic doctor. 17 states currently allow NDs to "practice". I just can't wrap my head around this. Seems like some people will do anything to be called "doctor".

 

[EMEDPA]

Anderson says it well and is consistent.

 

I think an aggressive RN proponent would suggest that they have advantages which are lost in any program which proposes to toss 12 months of didactic education at a patient care tech.  And then the NP route is clearly disinterested in four week rotations in twelve different specialties.   They reject the PA model of education no more or less violently than the PAs who suggest the NP route is a non-science, non-medical curriculum.  Of course their lobby dollars are important and they are inseparable from their successes, but they have a line of argumentation to go along with those dollars.

I understand how the specialty cert np folks may not want to rotate in specialties very different than their own. I get that. A psych np doesn't need a general surgery rotation. fine.

What I don't understand is an FNP program with 500 clinical hours. This is the closest comparison to a generalist PA program and SHOULD have a variety of clinical experiences, both inpatient and outpatient. a typical pa gets 4x the hours of a 500 hr FNP program and yet they both do FP when done, the specialty which is arguably the most broad-based .

I was not focused on primary care at all in school but still had more primary care hours than a typical FNP, despite multiple em and trauma rotations.

[db_pavnp]

I agree that your example is powerful, but at the same time it is a very American and American healthcare principle that more is always better.  Until PAs can convince legislators that those extra hours should translate into something, they are just hours on a piece of paper.

[EMEDPA]

I agree that your example is powerful, but at the same time it is a very American and American healthcare principle that more is always better.  Until PAs can convince legislators that those extra hours should translate into something, they are just hours on a piece of paper.

some states are looking very closely at this and restricting NPs to practicing to the level of their training. In TX for example FNPs can not work in hospitals, ACNPs can only work in hospitals, etc etc.

Many FNPs have minimal, if any, experience in emergency depts yet they apply to work there on a regular basis. we take students from a local program who do 1 week (40 hrs) as their entire ER rotation. m-f 9-5. for 1 week. that's not a rotation, that's an orientation. many of them never get to do anything of substance before they have to leave. then they apply for jobs at our facility and are surprised when we don't even interview them.

[db_pavnp]

I don't feel it is a statement against a profession if new grads are surprised they don't get an interview when the world contains plenty of red flags that it is a longshot.  Wrong specialization without pertinent experience is an uphill battle for everyone.  You are a fan of residencies for PAs, too.

[EMEDPA]

I don't feel it is a statement against a profession if new grads are surprised they don't get an interview when the world contains plenty of red flags that it is a longshot.  Wrong specialization without pertinent experience is an uphill battle for everyone.  You are a fan of residencies for PAs, too.

we just hired 3 PA new grads...all with considerable prior hce(navy corpsman x 2, former er tech in our er) , also 1 experienced pa and 1 experienced np.

[db_pavnp]

I can't help but feel that you are tossing anecdotes until something sticks.  It is not a weird suggestion that FNP's should really work in family practice, as they are trained to do, nor that your ER preferentially hires NPs and PAs with ER experience in some manner or another.  These are pretty normal scenarios.

[EMEDPA]

FNP's should really work in family practice, as they are trained to do.

we agree on this.

we hire new grad PAs because we feel they are trained better than new grad NPs. we have never, and likely will never, hire a new grad NP, regardless of prior experience.

[db_pavnp]

That is an institutional call and institutions make mistakes.  If you want to pass up BSN ED experienced ACNPs than that is your loss.

[EMEDPA]

That is an institutional call and institutions make mistakes.  If you want to pass up BSN ED experienced ACNPs than that is your loss.

many of the bsn,cen folks go to pa school. we hired one last year.

never had an acnp apply. can't say I've ever even met one. would have to evaluate on an individual basis. The vast majority of NP programs on the west coast are FNP programs.

I like the concept of the ACNP program but would still like to see far more hours. A PA interested in acute care(say me) still gets 3x the acute care hours of an ACNP, even those doing the longer 800 hr programs.

my typical question to RNs thinking of PA vs NP is this:

do you think YOU will get a better education with 2000+ hours of clinical training or 500? we are talking about the same individual taking one of 2 possible paths, not comparing various PAs and NPs.

I am a fan of the psych np and neonatal np concepts. those are narrow fields and focused training works very well there. for other fields, I question the quality and quantity of training.

A doc could make similar arguments vs a PA. I get that. an ER doc has a lot more training than I do, although a PA interested in EM can end up with far more em training hours than an FP doc focused on primary care. they are required to do no em training in med school and only 1 rotation in a typical em residency, although some who have an em interest do far more than that.