Non-compete info

[turnedintoamartian]

In my area the hospital systems (like most other areas) effectively own all primary care practices. Broadly speaking there are two competing systems. My current employer has a non-compete specific to the specialty within a mileage radius from current location for two years BUT it is not in effect if you are let go/terminated.

 I’m entertaining an offer from a competitor (different specialty) that simply bars you from practice with any other employer for 2 years and a certain mile radius. It states “any reason” regarding the end of your employment.

My question is not about the legality but what other PA’s are facing in regards to this. I really want to take this other position but that non-compete is severe. What’s everyone else dealing with?

[Cideous]

Draconian is the word I use to describe those things.  They should be illegal.

[mgriffiths]

7 hours ago, Cideous said:

Draconian is the word I use to describe those things.  They should be illegal.

In multiple states they are illegal...or at minimum un-enforceable...but you have to confirm your state, and I recommend getting legal counsel for review of course.  In my state (MI) non-competes are legal, but there are VERY specific limits and if the employer violates those limits the entire non-compete is voided (there are multiple case precedents for this).  I signed a non-compete with my current employer (required), but it is completely unenforceable because it crosses the limits set by the state.  I don't remember which limit, but the annoying part is my employer knows it is unenforceable, but they continue to require it as a scare tactic.

[turnedintoamartian]

I’m in the same state. I’ll look into a review, thanks.

[Cideous]

The fact is, they are scare tactics and little else.  Just the threat of a lawsuit is enough to keep most providers quiet and afraid.  Having said that, in Texas there have been several articles written of non-competes being upheld by super pro-business judges.  It's sad, because at the end of the day I have not seen a corporate Urgent Care in DFW that has not had one.  They are a fact of life in this field.

[rev ronin]

1 hour ago, Cideous said:

They are a fact of life in this field.

No, they are not, but if people believe that they are, they may seem that way.

Don't sign one.  Negotiate over it: "Ok, what is your offer without the non-compete clause?" If they say there isn't one, and you get that negotiation in writing, then there's clearly no exchange of consideration for that part of the contract--which may or may not help.  Line it out and return a signed agreement; see if they accept it.  Contact the various agencies responsible for fairness in hiring and complain.

Negotiating a contract is not a click-wrap license like you get from Microsoft or Apple.

If you sign a non-compete, you're throwing under the bus all the PAs who refused to.  Don't do it.

[Cideous]

9 minutes ago, rev ronin said:

No, they are not, but if people believe that they are, they may seem that way.

Don't sign one.  Negotiate over it: "Ok, what is your offer without the non-compete clause?" If they say there isn't one, and you get that negotiation in writing, then there's clearly no exchange of consideration for that part of the contract--which may or may not help.  Line it out and return a signed agreement; see if they accept it.  Contact the various agencies responsible for fairness in hiring and complain.

Negotiating a contract is not a click-wrap license like you get from Microsoft or Apple.

If you sign a non-compete, you're throwing under the bus all the PAs who refused to.  Don't do it.

 

Yes, they are..at least in Corporate Urgent Care.

 

You gave the academically pure answer, and it would of been mostly correct 15 years ago when we had more negotiating latitude.  Today, it's large hospitals, corporate owned practices an a few physician associations.  Most of which require a non-compete.  Contracts are signed via Docusign, not a hard copy.  Start fighting it and you will be dropped from consideration.  I've seen it happen.  It's terrible, but telling a new grad to walk away from a job because of it, might cost them the one job they had a chance at.  Admins can afford to be picky now as there are usually multiple candidates for the same job.  Act like a problem and they will simply move on to the next person who signs whatever they put in front of them.

I don't like it, and I wish it wasn't that way, but we are being disingenuous to the younger crowd here if we tell them to walk away from every job that won't remove their non-compete.

[rev ronin]

Meh, most of the younger crowd doesn't have a backbone. It's not particularly their fault: they have minimal to no job experience (and almost never any *professional* job experience) and grew up in an era where real competition and argument weren't actually allowed in school.

Me? I'm curmudgeonly enough that I WILL walk away, and WILL starve if necessary rather than work as a slave. My "plan B" if no one will hire me as a provider is to work as a HIPAA consultant and make double my current income.

More providers should be like me--willing to work for less money and more freedom, never allowing themselves to get to a financial point where they are 'forced' to take a job that isn't a good idea, good practice environment, or good fit.

[MT2PA]

6 hours ago, rev ronin said:

Meh, most of the younger crowd doesn't have a backbone. It's not particularly their fault: they have minimal to no job experience (and almost never any *professional* job experience) and grew up in an era where real competition and argument weren't actually allowed in school.

Me? I'm curmudgeonly enough that I WILL walk away, and WILL starve if necessary rather than work as a slave. My "plan B" if no one will hire me as a provider is to work as a HIPAA consultant and make double my current income.

More providers should be like me--willing to work for less money and more freedom, never allowing themselves to get to a financial point where they are 'forced' to take a job that isn't a good idea, good practice environment, or good fit.

The key to successful negotiation - being willing to walk away.  If you aren't, they've already got you.

You're right that the new kids on the block don't have that/trust that.  It's the first and usually only piece of negotiating advice I give when asked.  

[mgriffiths]

6 hours ago, rev ronin said:

never allowing themselves to get to a financial point where they are 'forced' to take a job that isn't a good idea, good practice environment, or good fit.

Unfortunately with skyrocketing undergraduate and graduate tuitions this is becoming more and more difficult.  But, I am thrilled to say that I am rapidly working toward being in this position.  I should be "financially free" within 10 years (having a daughter and a stay-at-home wife increased the timeline by 8 years...oh well), and while I have ZERO plans to retire at 30 I want to be financially able to walk away from any job that is trying to abuse me or partaking in unethical/illegal behavior (like my last job).

[Cideous]

2 hours ago, mgriffiths said:

Unfortunately with skyrocketing undergraduate and graduate tuitions this is becoming more and more difficult.  But, I am thrilled to say that I am rapidly working toward being in this position.  I should be "financially free" within 10 years (having a daughter and a stay-at-home wife increased the timeline by 8 years...oh well), and while I have ZERO plans to retire at 30 I want to be financially able to walk away from any job that is trying to abuse me or partaking in unethical/illegal behavior (like my last job).

Yeah, and that was my point.  Most new grads and those out just a few years are drowning in school loan debt and they can't afford to be picky.  Especially with the competition from NP's.

Now something interesting I read is that California has literally outlawed non-compete clauses in their state constitution.  I looked into a job there years ago and the place I was going to apply for stated that any non-compete I had signed in Texas would be null and void the moment I crossed the boarders of California.  Pretty cool.

[rev ronin]

1 hour ago, Cideous said:

Yeah, and that was my point.  Most new grads and those out just a few years are drowning in school loan debt and they can't afford to be picky.  Especially with the competition from NP's.

Now something interesting I read is that California has literally outlawed non-compete clauses in their state constitution.  I looked into a job there years ago and the place I was going to apply for stated that any non-compete I had signed in Texas would be null and void the moment I crossed the boarders of California.  Pretty cool.

So, with an extensive IT career behind me, I had enough 401k to burn down so I DIDN'T need to have any school debt.  That's a pretty unique situation, because traditional mid-career nurses or medics won't have that, and no way on earth the new kids starting PA school at 23 will.  But what I also did was undergraduate at state schools, national merit scholarship, pay-as-you-go, grants, and tuition reimbursement from multiple employers.  The first student loan I ever took out was in PA school, and that was just in case I wound up somewhere with loan repayment: I ended up not using that, being fine, but I wouldn't recommend anyone else in my situation (again, that's about no one) do that.

As far as non-compete's go, there are really two ethical reasons for a non-compete:

1) Major investment in training.  It might be reasonable to restrict your people from going immediately to a bigger paycheck at the direct competitor across the street if you train them and the competitor does not.

2) Clientele.  If you develop a clientele, or have one given to you by your  employer, it's not reasonable to take them with. Hairdressers do that all the time, but there's enough money in healthcare that it's actively discouraged, legally, by big shops.

Neither one of those applies AT ALL to urgent care.  So while completely outlawing non-compete clauses may be an imperfect solution, it's a lot closer to reasonable than what you're telling me the environment is in DFW urgent care.

[turnedintoamartian]

If nearly all the employers in the area include a non compete it becomes difficult to have other options available. Physicians in my area experience the same issues. 

[rev ronin]

2 hours ago, turnedintoamartian said:

If nearly all the employers in the area include a non compete it becomes difficult to have other options available. Physicians in my area experience the same issues. 

Then maybe it's time to unionize...

[sas5814]

15 hours ago, rev ronin said:

Then maybe it's time to unionize...

I have been advocating for this since big corporations took over health care. I have one "big issue" item I'm working on for PAFT. Maybe this would be another good one.