Autism

[Guest JMPA]

I'm posting this forum to as a PA-C looking for oppinions. Autism affects 1 out of 100 children in the U.S. today. This seems to be unacceptably high. What is the correllation between childhood vaccinations and the rise in autism. Is there a correllation? Is there a higher rate of autism in vaccinated children verse unvaccinated children? Studies?

[eliyoussefi]

No correlation....happy?!

[sk732]

Last two cases diagnosed by my SP were in non-vaccinated kids...my guess is the reason it's so high is the Dx criteria is based on a spectrum, and that spectrum has a pretty wide arc of fire - those stats don't break down levels of functioning, just a flat out Dx. People are more attuned to look for it now as well is my guess.

 

SK

[True Anomaly]

[True Anomaly]

If, however, you are actually serious......I direct you here:

 

http://www.autism-watch.org/

[Guest JMPA]

True anomaly, there is no need for name calling. It just reflects how ignorant and childish you are. This question that I pose is a legitimate question. What is the cause for the increase in autism? Is it simply better diagnostics? Is it correlated time wise with vaccinations (historical timing of vaccinations and rise of autism)? Where are studies on this important matter? Does it not affect you that this extremely high rate of disease in our children is continuing without a known cause? Shouldn't more funds be allocated to understand the cause of this rising epidemic?

[Joelseff]

It has been studied for 30 years with the conclusion that there is no correlation, and thimerosal, IIRC, was removed or reduced from vaccines 20 yrs or so ago from public pressure despite the MANY studies that show no causative correlation

For you as a PA as you state, to ask wheres the studies, seems odd since they are everywhere and i can see how Trueanomaly can think this is trollish....no name calling intended on my part but this topic is only controversial because the proponents of this notion that vaccines cause autism refuse to look at the studies

 

So I have to ask, have you not read ANY of the literature on this topic?

 

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[NoClinic4Me]

I think the problem with the question is that you have misinformed Whackos like Jenny McCarthy pushing disproven assumptions as truth and may have been suspected as being one of those (I do not). There is no correlation with vaccinations at all. There is probably no correlation with gluten either however larger scale studies need to be performed. This is just an example I chose to use, but gluten free diets do not kill but lack of vaccinations certainly can. I say try whatever you want if there is no harm to the kid or others. BUT, preaching nonsense as fact has led a lot of people on to more disappointment and frustration.

 

As for what I think (caveat: I am certainly no expert on autism)? I would speculate that increased awareness leading to increased diagnosis might be a factor. Including more people into the "autism spectrum" disorder might be playing a role; some kids with mild symptoms diagnosed with spectrum disorder now may not have been diagnosed in the past. I also think environmental factors must play some role. Genetics likely plays a role but that doesn't explain the increased incidence.

 

Pat

[mackjacks]

I agree with the idea that increased awareness=more diagnosis.

 

I had an interesting anthropology professor at University of Michigan who felt that the increase in autism diagnoses was closely correlated with increasing awareness of the dangers of UV radiation and increased use of sunscreen. He suggested that vitamin D deficiency and lack of "normal" UV radiation exposure for humans leads to autism. I disagree, but love independent thinkers!

[Joelseff]

I agree with the idea that increased awareness=more diagnosis.

 

I had an interesting anthropology professor at University of Michigan who felt that the increase in autism diagnoses was closely correlated with increasing awareness of the dangers of UV radiation and increased use of sunscreen. He suggested that vitamin D deficiency and lack of "normal" UV radiation exposure for humans leads to autism. I disagree, but love independent thinkers!

 

The problem is everyone has a theory...most ppl who make these theories have no evidence though and that's where EBM comes in handy. Ppl love their pet theories however....

 

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[vaston]

True anomaly, there is no need for name calling. It just reflects how ignorant and childish you are. This question that I pose is a legitimate question. What is the cause for the increase in autism? Is it simply better diagnostics? Is it correlated time wise with vaccinations (historical timing of vaccinations and rise of autism)? Where are studies on this important matter? Does it not affect you that this extremely high rate of disease in our children is continuing without a known cause? Shouldn't more funds be allocated to understand the cause of this rising epidemic?

 

Actually, the ignorance is on your end JMPA. If you are truly a practicing PA, one that cares about treating using Evidence Based Medicine, then you would know that the article that originally accused vaccines as the culprit for autism has been thoroughly and completely disproved. The man that wrote it lost his license to practice medicine because of the fraud associated with his 'study'. The Lancet redacted his 'study' and issued an official apology. He is also in the process of losing his license here in the U.S.

 

So, here's your choice: believe the celebrities or DO YOUR OWN STUDYING. Diagnostics studies released this year have started to identify kids with autism WELL BEFORE the age that vaccines would have caused the symptoms. Get off your tail and get caught up with current medicine. Please tell me you don't work in pediatrics!

[True Anomaly]

True anomaly, there is no need for name calling. It just reflects how ignorant and childish you are. This question that I pose is a legitimate question. What is the cause for the increase in autism? Is it simply better diagnostics? Is it correlated time wise with vaccinations (historical timing of vaccinations and rise of autism)? Where are studies on this important matter? Does it not affect you that this extremely high rate of disease in our children is continuing without a known cause? Shouldn't more funds be allocated to understand the cause of this rising epidemic?

 

Forgive me for my attempt at humor, but quite honestly, I don't think among medical professionals it's much of a legitimate question anymore- it's been studied and answered to the best of our current ability. And I did provide you with a link to a website with about as much research as you could possibly ask for- so if you're actually SERIOUS with your concern, then I suggest spending time parousing the website looking for your answers...although as Vaston clearly pointed out, the author of the major study was STRIPPED of his medical license in the UK due to his bad research, and the original article was redactated by Lancet.

 

If you were a lay person, I would completely understand the concern. However, I would think that a PA who is actively practicing would be fully aware of this. I maintain that the way you originally worded your question was not an eager attempt to answer a question, but rather push whatever agenda you are pushing. Your follow-up post speaks even more to this; using buzz phrases such as "where are the studies on this important manner" and "understand the cause of this rising epidemic", and especially "Does it not affect you???" is more in the language of someone who has ulterior motives other than seeking knowledge.

[cecilia]

This is by no means related to any studies, only my personal experience with one case.

 

We moved in a new neighbood where a bunch of other people moved in at the same time. Four of us were pregnant and due at the same time four months later. It was great, we all have babies at the same time, babysat each other kids, etc... However, one baby did not look right compared to the other three. Excessive drooling, Staring, ...the baby just looked different, like there was something wrong. Mom, however, did not notice anything because it was her first baby. The rest of us noticed but being politically correct did not mention it. Back then, autism info was not all over like it is now. Mom, noticed something was wrong when kid #2 came.

My point is: to the parents of this kid, the baby was completely normal and they could have easily blamed something like vaccines for their kid's condition later on, when more development was supposed to show but didn't. It's a tough topic and unfortunately there arent many answers. But I do believe we have to keep our minds open. I will not discount vaccines completely. We all know they can cause neurological side effects as rare as they are in some kids.

[sk732]

There is another thing that we do now we didn't even 40 odd years ago - the kids tend to stay at home more. Up until the not so distant past, alot of folks, especially with low functioning autism, were tossed into institutions - even visited some of them in the centre when was doing my integration with my SP. Autism as we know it has been described in one fashion or another for as long as medicine has been practiced, and for far longer than we've been vaccinating people...just it wasn't called autism and the kooks prefer to forget/ignore that. I go through this speech at least once or twice a week, as there is a small but annoying anti-vaccinationist sentiment in the area where I work. These are usually the same folks in the office demanding antibiotics for their kids colds...

 

SK

[rev ronin]

Counter question: Is it a breach of professional ethics for an allegedly certified PA to post here in a manner that feeds discredited scaremongering, which originated with a scientific-fraud-for-profit scheme, when that scaremongering causes avoidable mortality and morbidity to children?

[LIPPER]

Counter question: Is it a breach of professional ethics for an allegedly certified PA to post here in a manner that feeds discredited scaremongering, which originated with a scientific-fraud-for-profit scheme, when that scaremongering causes avoidable mortality and morbidity to children?

 

Has that happened?

 

I see some initial post that asks a bunch of questions. I see nothing "post[ed] here in a manner that feeds discredited scaremongering"

 

I can see where you're trying to go with this however..... No need to inflame the masses. As a parent of a child who fits within the autism-spectrum disorder dx, this will ALWAYS be something in the back of my mind. ...

[CAAdmission]

While increased vigilance is finding more cases, I find it hard to believe that we are not doing something that causes autism (in genetically susceptible people.)

 

Problem is, it will be a crap shoot. Maybe it is prenatal ultrasounds. Maybe it is prenatal vitamins. Maybe cell phone radiation. Far as I am concerned, vaccinations are off the table though. I'm pretty sure the vaccinations I had four decades ago had a heck of a lot more bad stuff in them than the ones we give today.

 

And even if vaccinations were scientifically demonstrated to cause autism, I hate to say it but the cost-benefit analysis in the end would probably still favor giving them. We would not want to see a large scale return of polio, measles, mumps and others.

[Guest JMPA]

First off, Revronin you should not be on here, your a wee lil student. second off this was a question for OPINIONS, not facts. Third off, I would like to say thank you to all the educated answers that were posted. I was looking for a census of OPINION. And to all those imature, childish name callers you bring shame on this profession.

[rev ronin]

First off, Revronin you should not be on here, your a wee lil student. second off this was a question for OPINIONS, not facts. Third off, I would like to say thank you to all the educated answers that were posted. I was looking for a census of OPINION. And to all those imature, childish name callers you bring shame on this profession.

 

So... you decry name calling, yet call me a "wee lil student"? Oh, the irony.

 

You are almost certainly a troll, rather than a real PA, and should probably be banned as such. Because if you *are* actually a real PA, you are bringing far more shame on this profession in this one thread than I ever will in my entire lifetime.

 

Vaccine refusal kills children. Posing questions as if there was any scientific basis for an Autism/vaccine link supports vaccine refusal. You do the math, but nothing I have or will ever post on the PA Forums on anywhere else on the Internet will ever give aid or comfort to those whose approaches to medical care cause avoidable morbidity and mortality.

[LaurShab]

First year "wee little PA student" here, and my class has already learned all about the link between autism and vaccines (or lack thereof). Aside from that, we were given the tools to dissect and critically evaluate the evidence based medicine so that we can answer these kinds of questions for our patients ourselves.

 

I call troll.

[True Anomaly]

First off, Revronin you should not be on here, your a wee lil student. second off this was a question for OPINIONS, not facts. Third off, I would like to say thank you to all the educated answers that were posted. I was looking for a census of OPINION. And to all those imature, childish name callers you bring shame on this profession.

 

I'm going to try to keep this as professional as possible...being a professional forum, and all.

 

I ask you to re-read your original post on this topic:

 

I'm posting this forum to as a PA-C looking for oppinions. Autism affects 1 out of 100 children in the U.S. today. This seems to be unacceptably high. What is the correllation between childhood vaccinations and the rise in autism. Is there a correllation? Is there a higher rate of autism in vaccinated children verse unvaccinated children? Studies?

 

You first stated you were looking for opinions...then you ask specifically for "what is the correlation" between autism and vaccinations. This is a question answered by scientific study. It's not an "opinion". Your entire initial post is asking for something that is addressed specifically by medical journals rather than conjecture out of thin air. And you top it off by asking for studies. I gave you an entire website full of studies showing that, if anything, there has never been true correlation shown between vaccines and autism. And we pointed out, more than once, that the original inflammatory "research article" was redacted and the author stripped of his medical license.

 

You have confused "opinions" and "facts". If you were actually looking for people's "opinions" on this issue, you wouldn't ask for "studies" and "correlation".

 

Why don't we discuss our "opinions" on whether there's a correlation between atrial fibrillation and CVA's? Forget all those studies out there...

What about our "opinions" on hypertension and diabetes correlated with renal failure? Nah, forget those studies too...

 

And I maintain that if you didn't have an agenda, your post would not mention vaccines...because that question has been answered. If you want to talk about OTHER things which you might believe are causing a "rise" in autism, then that would be the subject of your post. But you focused on vaccines...which to me says that you have an ulterior motive.

 

In short, it's intellectually dishonest to talk about "opinions" of medical questions while basically ignoring the numerous scientific studies already addressing said question.

[LIPPER]

 

 

Why don't we discuss our "opinions" on whether there's a correlation between atrial fibrillation and CVA's? Forget all those studies out there...

What about our "opinions" on hypertension and diabetes correlated with renal failure? Nah, forget those studies too...

.

 

had this been the initial response I'd have said fine. BUT I think some here need to be reminded;

 

Undergrad = GDI

PA student = Pledge

PA grad pending PANCE= Neophyte

PA-C = Full Participatory member

 

Until you students obtain PA-C status try not to think that you can talk to others like you are a full fledged member. A student that brings that attitude to me would have a really crappy rotation..... Think of yourselves like kids at a dinner table; seen but not heard. You want to have a meaningful discussion on the merits of a topic, that's fine

 

The thing about medicine is that it's constantly changing. Things are proven and disproven all the time....

[rev ronin]

Until you students obtain PA-C status try not to think that you can talk to others like you are a full fledged member. A student that brings that attitude to me would have a really crappy rotation.....

 

Don't forget that not all of us who are "students" are 25 year old kids--heck, my "arguing with people over the Internet" habit is 25 years old. (And for you old-timer purists, yes, it was ARPAnet, BITNET, and Usenet back then) If you're addressing them, fine. But those of us who've had real careers--and not just pretextual healthcare jobs carefully orchestrated as stepping stones to PA school--are not them.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have every bit of the logical and ethical reasoning ability as any other poster here. While I will and do defer to PA-C's in matters of actual practice, you don't see that much on the forums here because I simply don't post to threads in which I am not- or under-qualified to comment. This thread is not one of those.

 

If you're insinuating that PA-S's should ignore threats to the best evidence-based patient care, then I'm going to have to differ with you. Even if my program had not covered ethics nearly two years ago, I would never had stayed silent in the face of a threat to patient safety.

[HLReed]

It's often better to weigh an opinion by the merit of the argument rather than the initials of the author.

[LaurShab]

Yikes. Well, consider me put in my place. I will not say any more on this forum that could potentially dispute a PA-C.

 

I WILL say that I'd be highly disappointed if one of my preceptors gave me a "crappy rotation" simply if one of my opinions differed from theirs. As a student, I have a right to learn and share what I've learned, and I think I'm allowed to say that.