jdtpac Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Isn't there a movement to have every program at a masters level by a certain date? this is from ARC-PA website: http://www.arc-pa.org/acc_standards/ Programs accredited prior to 2013 that do not currently offer a graduate degree must transition to conferring a graduate degree, which should be awarded by the sponsoring institution, upon all PA students who matriculate into the program after 2020. Institutions planning to develop a program and apply for provisional accreditation which do not meet these eligibility requirements will not be considered by the ARC-PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Isn't there a movement to have every program at a masters level by a certain date? this is from ARC-PA website: http://www.arc-pa.org/acc_standards/ Programs accredited prior to 2013 that do not currently offer a graduate degree must transition to conferring a graduate degree, which should be awarded by the sponsoring institution, upon all PA students who matriculate into the program after 2020. Institutions planning to develop a program and apply for provisional accreditation which do not meet these eligibility requirements will not be considered by the ARC-PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treejay Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 We had a gentleman in our program that was a Jesuit Brother with a bachelors in theology and wanting to be a priest before changing his mind to want to be a PA. He was very compassionate and and demonstrated an overwhelming desire to be a PA. Do you turn individuals like that away because they have no previous HCE?/QUOTE] sure, he sounds like a great applicant but how does he know that he likes health care? what if the small of blood makes him vomit or he can't handle the suffering of others? I hate it when folks get into pa school, complete the first yr then find out during the clinical yr that they are not suited for medicine but have too much invested to quit at that point. that is one of the reasons hce has value, to introduce potential future pa's to the realities of medicine. even low level hce like cna can show you if a career in medicine is right for you or not. going to pa school without prior health care experience/exposure is like dedicating your life to be a park ranger without ever first having gone hiking in a national park or becoming a priest without ever having gone to church. Do you feel the same way about folks who go to to medical school without having any healthcare experience? Here at my school, that seems to be the majority of medical students. If not, why the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treejay Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 We had a gentleman in our program that was a Jesuit Brother with a bachelors in theology and wanting to be a priest before changing his mind to want to be a PA. He was very compassionate and and demonstrated an overwhelming desire to be a PA. Do you turn individuals like that away because they have no previous HCE?/QUOTE] sure, he sounds like a great applicant but how does he know that he likes health care? what if the small of blood makes him vomit or he can't handle the suffering of others? I hate it when folks get into pa school, complete the first yr then find out during the clinical yr that they are not suited for medicine but have too much invested to quit at that point. that is one of the reasons hce has value, to introduce potential future pa's to the realities of medicine. even low level hce like cna can show you if a career in medicine is right for you or not. going to pa school without prior health care experience/exposure is like dedicating your life to be a park ranger without ever first having gone hiking in a national park or becoming a priest without ever having gone to church. Do you feel the same way about folks who go to to medical school without having any healthcare experience? Here at my school, that seems to be the majority of medical students. If not, why the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 ... [brevity edit]... PAMAC and Contrarian always seemed to want to see “the cup half-empty” when it comes to any issues of the Academy. Based on their negativism it's quite clear to me that neither has apparently ever been involved in a professional organization. Maybe they should give it a try and they will see that things are not always what they appeared to be. ... [brevity edit]... I'm not trying to say that these to individuals are not entitled to their opinions, but unless they have walked in those shoes of leadership within this profession I think their negative comments are counterproductive to the progression of the profession. And if you are that unhappy, you might want to reevaluate your career choice, maybe you should become physicians and then you will get all the autonomy and independence that you want. First class IDIOCY... id·i·o·cy (d--s) n. pl. id·i·o·cies. 1. Extreme folly or stupidity. 2. A foolish or stupid utterance or deed. Dude... YOU know nothing about me. On the other hand, we DO know (straight from your keyboard to this forum) that YOU and the "good-ole-boys" that have been running the academy into the ground over the last decade or so... DO/DID oppose/Obstruct progress on any REAL or imagined PA to Physician bridge program and DID obstruct any real discussion on a PA name change. Cause YOU guys know better right...?? Your main problem here on this forum is that your evaluation of self-importance and appropriate contribution isn't in line with all viewers/readers here... and this causes you considerable cognative dissonance. You are having significant difficulty accepting the idea that explaining why you guys did what you did... when you did it, doesn't make the position any more favorable or acceptable or appropriate. (Nixon repeatedly explaining WHY he had his guys burglerized the watergate doesn't make the position any more favorable or acceptable or appropriate.) Thing is... any non-narcissist who runs for and is elected to any organization that looses exponential numbers of their members successively and consistently, would stop blaming the mass exodus on the folks leaving and SERIOUSLY engadge in some "I-N-T-R-O-SPECTION." Its silly. Especially when you consider that pretty much ALL/EVERY PA student joins this organization... elated to soon be practicing in their new profession... then like clock-work... YOU guys convince them NOT to renew their membership. But yeah... its cause 'they ain't walked yo shooos'... puleeeeeeeeeeze. Stop now dude... Contrarian P.S... the whole 'maybe we should become physicians if we have any desire for respect, and/or to direct our own path as medical practitioners is very assinine' and indicative of why the Academy is where it is now in terms of members. Thing is... even if you were right, and I was disgruntled, and decided to become a physician... YOU dim-wits opposed any decent option PAs would have at expediting that process. You guys opposed the PA-->MD/DO bridge remember... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 ... [brevity edit]... PAMAC and Contrarian always seemed to want to see “the cup half-empty” when it comes to any issues of the Academy. Based on their negativism it's quite clear to me that neither has apparently ever been involved in a professional organization. Maybe they should give it a try and they will see that things are not always what they appeared to be. ... [brevity edit]... I'm not trying to say that these to individuals are not entitled to their opinions, but unless they have walked in those shoes of leadership within this profession I think their negative comments are counterproductive to the progression of the profession. And if you are that unhappy, you might want to reevaluate your career choice, maybe you should become physicians and then you will get all the autonomy and independence that you want. First class IDIOCY... id·i·o·cy (d--s) n. pl. id·i·o·cies. 1. Extreme folly or stupidity. 2. A foolish or stupid utterance or deed. Dude... YOU know nothing about me. On the other hand, we DO know (straight from your keyboard to this forum) that YOU and the "good-ole-boys" that have been running the academy into the ground over the last decade or so... DO/DID oppose/Obstruct progress on any REAL or imagined PA to Physician bridge program and DID obstruct any real discussion on a PA name change. Cause YOU guys know better right...?? Your main problem here on this forum is that your evaluation of self-importance and appropriate contribution isn't in line with all viewers/readers here... and this causes you considerable cognative dissonance. You are having significant difficulty accepting the idea that explaining why you guys did what you did... when you did it, doesn't make the position any more favorable or acceptable or appropriate. (Nixon repeatedly explaining WHY he had his guys burglerized the watergate doesn't make the position any more favorable or acceptable or appropriate.) Thing is... any non-narcissist who runs for and is elected to any organization that looses exponential numbers of their members successively and consistently, would stop blaming the mass exodus on the folks leaving and SERIOUSLY engadge in some "I-N-T-R-O-SPECTION." Its silly. Especially when you consider that pretty much ALL/EVERY PA student joins this organization... elated to soon be practicing in their new profession... then like clock-work... YOU guys convince them NOT to renew their membership. But yeah... its cause 'they ain't walked yo shooos'... puleeeeeeeeeeze. Stop now dude... Contrarian P.S... the whole 'maybe we should become physicians if we have any desire for respect, and/or to direct our own path as medical practitioners is very assinine' and indicative of why the Academy is where it is now in terms of members. Thing is... even if you were right, and I was disgruntled, and decided to become a physician... YOU dim-wits opposed any decent option PAs would have at expediting that process. You guys opposed the PA-->MD/DO bridge remember... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Do you feel the same way about folks who go to to medical school without having any healthcare experience? Here at my school, that seems to be the majority of medical students. If not, why the difference? The following was taking directly from the Association of the American Medical Schools website: How can I prepare myself academically for medical school? You'll need a strong foundation in mathematics and the sciences that relate most to medicine: biology, general chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics. Entrance requirements at most medical schools include completion of course work in biology, mathematics, chemistry, physics, and English. But a liberal arts education is a key ingredient to becoming a physician, so it's important for your college experience to be well-rounded. Taking courses in the humanities and the social sciences will help you prepare for the "people" side of medicine. The ideal physician understands how society works and can communicate and write well. Extracurricular activities also are important. You may want to volunteer at a local hospital or clinic to gain practical health care experience. https://www.aamc.org/students/considering/gettingin/ If this is the minimum requirement/experience suggested for admission into any medical school, why should we have a greater minimum standard for getting into today’s PA programs? Let's all remember it overwhelming percentage of individuals getting into today's medical schools are in their mid-20s. I don't believe we would lowering our standards by setting similar minimal requirements for entrance into PA school while continuing encourage individuals with previous HCE consider a second career as a PA. Plus everything I've said prior to this post…… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Do you feel the same way about folks who go to to medical school without having any healthcare experience? Here at my school, that seems to be the majority of medical students. If not, why the difference? The following was taking directly from the Association of the American Medical Schools website: How can I prepare myself academically for medical school? You'll need a strong foundation in mathematics and the sciences that relate most to medicine: biology, general chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics. Entrance requirements at most medical schools include completion of course work in biology, mathematics, chemistry, physics, and English. But a liberal arts education is a key ingredient to becoming a physician, so it's important for your college experience to be well-rounded. Taking courses in the humanities and the social sciences will help you prepare for the "people" side of medicine. The ideal physician understands how society works and can communicate and write well. Extracurricular activities also are important. You may want to volunteer at a local hospital or clinic to gain practical health care experience. https://www.aamc.org/students/considering/gettingin/ If this is the minimum requirement/experience suggested for admission into any medical school, why should we have a greater minimum standard for getting into today’s PA programs? Let's all remember it overwhelming percentage of individuals getting into today's medical schools are in their mid-20s. I don't believe we would lowering our standards by setting similar minimal requirements for entrance into PA school while continuing encourage individuals with previous HCE consider a second career as a PA. Plus everything I've said prior to this post…… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 First class IDIOCY... Dude... YOU know nothing about me. On the other hand, we DO know (straight from your keyboard to this forum) that YOU and the "good-ole-boys" that have been running the academy into the ground over the last decade or so... DO/DID oppose/Obstruct progress on any REAL or imagined PA to Physician bridge program and DID obstruct any real discussion on a PA name change. Cause YOU guys know better right...?? Your main problem here on this forum is that your evaluation of self-importance and appropriate contribution isn't in line with all viewers/readers here... and this causes you considerable cognative dissonance. You are having significant difficulty accepting the idea that explaining why you guys did what you did... when you did it, doesn't make the position any more favorable or acceptable or appropriate. (Nixon repeatedly explaining WHY he had his guys burglerized the watergate doesn't make the position any more favorable or acceptable or appropriate.) Thing is... any non-narcissist who runs for and is elected to any organization that looses exponential numbers of their members successively and consistently, would stop blaming the mass exodus on the folks leaving and SERIOUSLY engadge in some "I-N-T-R-O-SPECTION." Its silly. Especially when you consider that pretty much ALL/EVERY PA student joins this organization... elated to soon be practicing in their new profession... then like clock-work... YOU guys convince them NOT to renew their membership. But yeah... its cause 'they ain't walked yo shooos'... puleeeeeeeeeeze. Stop now dude... Contrarian P.S... the whole 'maybe we should become physicians if we have any desire for respect, and/or to direct our own path as medical practitioners is very assinine' and indicative of why the Academy is where it is now in terms of members. Thing is... even if you were right, and I was disgruntled, and decided to become a physician... YOU dim-wits opposed any decent option PAs would have at expediting that process. You guys opposed the PA-->MD/DO bridge remember... DUDE…. give it a rest! If you think we ‘good ole boys’ have been doing that bad of a job why don't you put up or….! Are you up for the challenge… I think not! All I see you accomplishing with your extremely judgmental rhetoric and hyperbole is what…. NOTHING!!! Although I must admit the over 4000 viewers to this thread have probably been mildly entertained by the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 First class IDIOCY... Dude... YOU know nothing about me. On the other hand, we DO know (straight from your keyboard to this forum) that YOU and the "good-ole-boys" that have been running the academy into the ground over the last decade or so... DO/DID oppose/Obstruct progress on any REAL or imagined PA to Physician bridge program and DID obstruct any real discussion on a PA name change. Cause YOU guys know better right...?? Your main problem here on this forum is that your evaluation of self-importance and appropriate contribution isn't in line with all viewers/readers here... and this causes you considerable cognative dissonance. You are having significant difficulty accepting the idea that explaining why you guys did what you did... when you did it, doesn't make the position any more favorable or acceptable or appropriate. (Nixon repeatedly explaining WHY he had his guys burglerized the watergate doesn't make the position any more favorable or acceptable or appropriate.) Thing is... any non-narcissist who runs for and is elected to any organization that looses exponential numbers of their members successively and consistently, would stop blaming the mass exodus on the folks leaving and SERIOUSLY engadge in some "I-N-T-R-O-SPECTION." Its silly. Especially when you consider that pretty much ALL/EVERY PA student joins this organization... elated to soon be practicing in their new profession... then like clock-work... YOU guys convince them NOT to renew their membership. But yeah... its cause 'they ain't walked yo shooos'... puleeeeeeeeeeze. Stop now dude... Contrarian P.S... the whole 'maybe we should become physicians if we have any desire for respect, and/or to direct our own path as medical practitioners is very assinine' and indicative of why the Academy is where it is now in terms of members. Thing is... even if you were right, and I was disgruntled, and decided to become a physician... YOU dim-wits opposed any decent option PAs would have at expediting that process. You guys opposed the PA-->MD/DO bridge remember... DUDE…. give it a rest! If you think we ‘good ole boys’ have been doing that bad of a job why don't you put up or….! Are you up for the challenge… I think not! All I see you accomplishing with your extremely judgmental rhetoric and hyperbole is what…. NOTHING!!! Although I must admit the over 4000 viewers to this thread have probably been mildly entertained by the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToppDog Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 The PA profession was designed to fill gaps in primary care by allowing PA's to practice medicine under the supervision of an MD. As time has passed, there are much fewer MD's willing to go into primary care. So, how can PA's continue to fulfill their primary role if there are no MD's left to supervise them? Should healthcare in the US just give up primary care to the NP's? Do you really think the PA profession will remain a viable option if we continue meandering along towards a doctorate just because the NP's are, without that really meaning anything? What is so terribly wrong with having a bridge program that will provide the doctorate (MD) to PA's who have been working in the field for many years in order to maintain MD's in primary care, thus remaining loyal to the original purpose of the PA profession? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToppDog Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 The PA profession was designed to fill gaps in primary care by allowing PA's to practice medicine under the supervision of an MD. As time has passed, there are much fewer MD's willing to go into primary care. So, how can PA's continue to fulfill their primary role if there are no MD's left to supervise them? Should healthcare in the US just give up primary care to the NP's? Do you really think the PA profession will remain a viable option if we continue meandering along towards a doctorate just because the NP's are, without that really meaning anything? What is so terribly wrong with having a bridge program that will provide the doctorate (MD) to PA's who have been working in the field for many years in order to maintain MD's in primary care, thus remaining loyal to the original purpose of the PA profession? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 The PA profession was designed to fill gaps in primary care by allowing PA's to practice medicine under the supervision of an MD. As time has passed, there are much fewer MD's willing to go into primary care. So, how can PA's continue to fulfill their primary role if there are no MD's left to supervise them? Should healthcare in the US just give up primary care to the NP's? Do you really think the PA profession will remain a viable option if we continue meandering along towards a doctorate just because the NP's are, without that really meaning anything? What is so terribly wrong with having a bridge program that will provide the doctorate (MD) to PA's who have been working in the field for many years in order to maintain MD's in primary care, thus remaining loyal to the original purpose of the PA profession? First of all, technical clarification, an MD is NOT a doctorate. An MD is a trade degree. It is what would be classified as a "First Professional" degree similar to a JD with master's style classwork and an extended trade style apprenticeship. That is NOT a doctorate, and an MD on many paperwork submissions (including government grants) is often listed or classified along with JD, OD, and Master's level degrees. This is confusing to many, but it is not a true doctorate. It is a trade degree. From the US Department of Education: The research doctorate, or the Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) and its equivalent titles, represents the highest academic qualification in the U.S. education system. While the structure of U.S. doctoral programs is more formal and complex than in some other systems, it is important to note that the research doctorate is not awarded for the preliminary advanced study that leads to doctoral candidacy, but rather for successfully completing and defending the independent research presented in the form of the doctoral dissertation (thesis). Holders of first-professional degrees are considered to have an entry-level qualification and may undertake graduate study in these professional fields following the award of the first-professional degree. Several of these degrees use the term “doctor” in the title, but these degrees do not contain an independent research component or require a dissertation (thesis) and should not be confused with PhD degrees. Now, on to your next point. Why would the AAPA want to publicly encourage members to become non PA's? You have to remember the AAPA's role. They are an advocacy organization, and they are there to advocate for PA's...not for PA's to become non PA's. For example, I have a large EM study that will examine EM providers and stress. I was in discussions with a large EM organization about funding it. They have chosen not to, as it could potentially reflect EM providers in an unflattering way. It would be easy to be frustrated with them, but I am not, as I understand that they are first and foremost an advocacy group, and to fund a study that might show EM providers in a bad light would not be in their interest. Same thing here. BTW, I have other funding options, so it'll likely go through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 The PA profession was designed to fill gaps in primary care by allowing PA's to practice medicine under the supervision of an MD. As time has passed, there are much fewer MD's willing to go into primary care. So, how can PA's continue to fulfill their primary role if there are no MD's left to supervise them? Should healthcare in the US just give up primary care to the NP's? Do you really think the PA profession will remain a viable option if we continue meandering along towards a doctorate just because the NP's are, without that really meaning anything? What is so terribly wrong with having a bridge program that will provide the doctorate (MD) to PA's who have been working in the field for many years in order to maintain MD's in primary care, thus remaining loyal to the original purpose of the PA profession? First of all, technical clarification, an MD is NOT a doctorate. An MD is a trade degree. It is what would be classified as a "First Professional" degree similar to a JD with master's style classwork and an extended trade style apprenticeship. That is NOT a doctorate, and an MD on many paperwork submissions (including government grants) is often listed or classified along with JD, OD, and Master's level degrees. This is confusing to many, but it is not a true doctorate. It is a trade degree. From the US Department of Education: The research doctorate, or the Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) and its equivalent titles, represents the highest academic qualification in the U.S. education system. While the structure of U.S. doctoral programs is more formal and complex than in some other systems, it is important to note that the research doctorate is not awarded for the preliminary advanced study that leads to doctoral candidacy, but rather for successfully completing and defending the independent research presented in the form of the doctoral dissertation (thesis). Holders of first-professional degrees are considered to have an entry-level qualification and may undertake graduate study in these professional fields following the award of the first-professional degree. Several of these degrees use the term “doctor” in the title, but these degrees do not contain an independent research component or require a dissertation (thesis) and should not be confused with PhD degrees. Now, on to your next point. Why would the AAPA want to publicly encourage members to become non PA's? You have to remember the AAPA's role. They are an advocacy organization, and they are there to advocate for PA's...not for PA's to become non PA's. For example, I have a large EM study that will examine EM providers and stress. I was in discussions with a large EM organization about funding it. They have chosen not to, as it could potentially reflect EM providers in an unflattering way. It would be easy to be frustrated with them, but I am not, as I understand that they are first and foremost an advocacy group, and to fund a study that might show EM providers in a bad light would not be in their interest. Same thing here. BTW, I have other funding options, so it'll likely go through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 ^not quite.... after all, less that 1% of PAs are even interested in making the jump (jdtpac 2012), so a mass exodous doesnt seem to be in the wings. an endorsement of a bridge says "our knowlege and skills as providers is of quality level." an EM group concerned about taking a financial hit by you exposing their trade practices is a different animal altogether. i dont know why you used that to explain why the AAPA wouldnt want to take a stand asserting that PA knowlege is worth having advanced standing towards medical school. Because you could also look at it as: PAs should be encouraged to go on to medical school as PA training is insufficient.. There are those who would interpret it as such. This is the problem.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 ^not quite.... after all, less that 1% of PAs are even interested in making the jump (jdtpac 2012), so a mass exodous doesnt seem to be in the wings. an endorsement of a bridge says "our knowlege and skills as providers is of quality level." an EM group concerned about taking a financial hit by you exposing their trade practices is a different animal altogether. i dont know why you used that to explain why the AAPA wouldnt want to take a stand asserting that PA knowlege is worth having advanced standing towards medical school. Because you could also look at it as: PAs should be encouraged to go on to medical school as PA training is insufficient.. There are those who would interpret it as such. This is the problem.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 so the aapa lacks the intestinal fortitude to stand up for its members, and the knowlege that they've required, so they huddle in fear of upsetting physicians... i get it, but we all already knew that about them. nothing groundbreaking there. i cant imagine why folks arent cutting checks left and right for this body. You still haven't clarified how they are not standing up for their members. I would counter that they are. Why would any professional organization charged with advocacy for its membership adopt a policy advocating for them to leave their profession? It's a silly notion really. The AAPA didn't say that it denounced the programs, merely that it could not endorse or support them. While I differ from the AAPA on some things, including the name change, I actually agree with them on this. If you want to go to medical school....go to medical school....no one will stop you. But I also think that even bridge programs should require the MCAT and all of the other course work that traditional medical students do. A PA background could theoretically shorten the length of education, but shouldn't change the entry requirements. Kind of wishing Lisa would pop in on this thread, as she likely has more insight into this than ANYONE else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 so the aapa lacks the intestinal fortitude to stand up for its members, and the knowlege that they've required, so they huddle in fear of upsetting physicians... i get it, but we all already knew that about them. nothing groundbreaking there. i cant imagine why folks arent cutting checks left and right for this body. You still haven't clarified how they are not standing up for their members. I would counter that they are. Why would any professional organization charged with advocacy for its membership adopt a policy advocating for them to leave their profession? It's a silly notion really. The AAPA didn't say that it denounced the programs, merely that it could not endorse or support them. While I differ from the AAPA on some things, including the name change, I actually agree with them on this. If you want to go to medical school....go to medical school....no one will stop you. But I also think that even bridge programs should require the MCAT and all of the other course work that traditional medical students do. A PA background could theoretically shorten the length of education, but shouldn't change the entry requirements. Kind of wishing Lisa would pop in on this thread, as she likely has more insight into this than ANYONE else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 ^so the entry suggestions for physicians are what you feel are appropriate for the PA profession? sounds like if you want to be a phsyician and do the exact same steps to get there, why not just take the mcat and go to medical school, and skip PA school altogether? in reality, the requirements for phsyics and ochem are pretty much the only things that many pre PA's lack. you just made the case for shutting down the PA profession altogether with that one! PAMAC, Clarification: Excerpt from my post #158 re: bridge programs “I for one do not disagree with you (andersenpa) on this issue and I debated in favor of the policy that was presented at the HOD, however the collective mind of the profession chose not to adopt a policy endorsing bridge programs at this time.” Clarification: Excerpt from my post #170 “Programs accredited prior to 2013 that do not currently offer a graduate degree must transition to conferring a graduate degree, which should be awarded by the sponsoring institution, upon all PA students who matriculate into the program after 2020”. By 2020 not only will all students be graduating with a Masters degree but by that same time the majority of practicing PAs will have Masters degree. All things being equal between perspective pre-PA and pre-med students: Advantages of going to PA school: (should be self explanatory) Less time in training equals: Decreased cost to the individual and the system Getting qualified primary care providers in the healthcare system faster PAs have greater flexibility and can adapt to the changing needs of the system easier Lifestyle preferences??? Expanded scope of practice with greater autonomy and less restrictions will come, be patient. (and probably much sooner than 2020 if the profession becomes more united) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 ^so the entry suggestions for physicians are what you feel are appropriate for the PA profession? sounds like if you want to be a phsyician and do the exact same steps to get there, why not just take the mcat and go to medical school, and skip PA school altogether? in reality, the requirements for phsyics and ochem are pretty much the only things that many pre PA's lack. you just made the case for shutting down the PA profession altogether with that one! PAMAC, Clarification: Excerpt from my post #158 re: bridge programs “I for one do not disagree with you (andersenpa) on this issue and I debated in favor of the policy that was presented at the HOD, however the collective mind of the profession chose not to adopt a policy endorsing bridge programs at this time.” Clarification: Excerpt from my post #170 “Programs accredited prior to 2013 that do not currently offer a graduate degree must transition to conferring a graduate degree, which should be awarded by the sponsoring institution, upon all PA students who matriculate into the program after 2020”. By 2020 not only will all students be graduating with a Masters degree but by that same time the majority of practicing PAs will have Masters degree. All things being equal between perspective pre-PA and pre-med students: Advantages of going to PA school: (should be self explanatory) Less time in training equals: Decreased cost to the individual and the system Getting qualified primary care providers in the healthcare system faster PAs have greater flexibility and can adapt to the changing needs of the system easier Lifestyle preferences??? Expanded scope of practice with greater autonomy and less restrictions will come, be patient. (and probably much sooner than 2020 if the profession becomes more united) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 The PA profession was designed to fill gaps in primary care by allowing PA's to practice medicine under the supervision of an MD. As time has passed, there are much fewer MD's willing to go into primary care. So, how can PA's continue to fulfill their primary role if there are no MD's left to supervise them? Should healthcare in the US just give up primary care to the NP's? Do you really think the PA profession will remain a viable option if we continue meandering along towards a doctorate just because the NP's are, without that really meaning anything? What is so terribly wrong with having a bridge program that will provide the doctorate (MD) to PA's who have been working in the field for many years in order to maintain MD's in primary care, thus remaining loyal to the original purpose of the PA profession? Yes! Our being dependent on primary care physicians actually hold back our/ my desire to work in PC. I have been in specialties since grad bc no primary care clinics in my community (an undeserved one) was hiring. I happened to only recently find one opening up a new practice and I am taking a huge pay cut just so I can work in PC. Only a handful of my grad class actually went into pc despite graduating from a "Primary Care Associate" program prob bc of $ but I'm willing to bet the scarcity of pcps these days had some impact. In my area, the IPAs are holding most, if not all the FP/IM jobs And they seem to hire nps more. It seems according to a post here about what specialties residents match with that primary care is still the least entered. So a bridge pcp program would be great for those PAs who have been devoted to primary care to continue to do do and it can bolster the PC PA job market also with previous PA, now physicians hiring a bunch of pas. Or we can fight for independent practice after so many years of dependent practice....that's another can of worms.... Sent from my HTC MT4GS using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 The PA profession was designed to fill gaps in primary care by allowing PA's to practice medicine under the supervision of an MD. As time has passed, there are much fewer MD's willing to go into primary care. So, how can PA's continue to fulfill their primary role if there are no MD's left to supervise them? Should healthcare in the US just give up primary care to the NP's? Do you really think the PA profession will remain a viable option if we continue meandering along towards a doctorate just because the NP's are, without that really meaning anything? What is so terribly wrong with having a bridge program that will provide the doctorate (MD) to PA's who have been working in the field for many years in order to maintain MD's in primary care, thus remaining loyal to the original purpose of the PA profession? Yes! Our being dependent on primary care physicians actually hold back our/ my desire to work in PC. I have been in specialties since grad bc no primary care clinics in my community (an undeserved one) was hiring. I happened to only recently find one opening up a new practice and I am taking a huge pay cut just so I can work in PC. Only a handful of my grad class actually went into pc despite graduating from a "Primary Care Associate" program prob bc of $ but I'm willing to bet the scarcity of pcps these days had some impact. In my area, the IPAs are holding most, if not all the FP/IM jobs And they seem to hire nps more. It seems according to a post here about what specialties residents match with that primary care is still the least entered. So a bridge pcp program would be great for those PAs who have been devoted to primary care to continue to do do and it can bolster the PC PA job market also with previous PA, now physicians hiring a bunch of pas. Or we can fight for independent practice after so many years of dependent practice....that's another can of worms.... Sent from my HTC MT4GS using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToppDog Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 First of all, technical clarification, an MD is NOT a doctorate. An MD is a trade degree. It is what would be classified as a "First Professional" degree similar to a JD with master's style classwork and an extended trade style apprenticeship. That is NOT a doctorate, and an MD on many paperwork submissions (including government grants) is often listed or classified along with JD, OD, and Master's level degrees... My bad. I knew MD wasn't the same as the doctorate, but I was in a hurry before leaving for work. I did not know about JD, OD, etc. however, so thanks for that. I love all the stuff I learn from you guys on these forums. I realize that the AAPA shouldn't be promoting PA's leaving the field, but at the same time, what are they doing to address the problem of PA's being discouraged from fulfilling their primary role? Not only are there less primary care clinics to get hired at, but with the degree creep that is occurring, many new grads opt for specialties simply to be able to pay off all the additional loans. I worry about this as a pre-PA because I really like family practice. It's not something I BS about to sound good. But I am worried that I could end up being shut out of it as I was as an MA. And, this is disturbing to me as MD is not an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToppDog Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 First of all, technical clarification, an MD is NOT a doctorate. An MD is a trade degree. It is what would be classified as a "First Professional" degree similar to a JD with master's style classwork and an extended trade style apprenticeship. That is NOT a doctorate, and an MD on many paperwork submissions (including government grants) is often listed or classified along with JD, OD, and Master's level degrees... My bad. I knew MD wasn't the same as the doctorate, but I was in a hurry before leaving for work. I did not know about JD, OD, etc. however, so thanks for that. I love all the stuff I learn from you guys on these forums. I realize that the AAPA shouldn't be promoting PA's leaving the field, but at the same time, what are they doing to address the problem of PA's being discouraged from fulfilling their primary role? Not only are there less primary care clinics to get hired at, but with the degree creep that is occurring, many new grads opt for specialties simply to be able to pay off all the additional loans. I worry about this as a pre-PA because I really like family practice. It's not something I BS about to sound good. But I am worried that I could end up being shut out of it as I was as an MA. And, this is disturbing to me as MD is not an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted March 29, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 29, 2012 One of the reasons PA was created was because Eugene Stead thought a problem with medical education was that there was no lateral mobility in education. A series of parallel ladders. One could climb, only to have to go back down and climb another to advance after hitting the ceiling (ie nurse becoming a physician) without accounting for prior education. Doesn't this idea seem to invite a bridge for PAs to become MDs? And if advocacy is an issue, which is the only logical argument against a bridge that I can see, couldn't it be said that PAs becoming physicians would led to better advocacy from those with the greatest control over us? As for the AAPA being advocates, shouldn't that mean they follow the will of their constituents? If not, then aren't they only advocating for themselves (the leadership) and not for PAs as a whole? If the majority wants a name change, then it should be endorsed because that is what the people want. To do otherwise is ignoring the will of of the group and not advocacy. Just thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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