PA to MD alternative

[EMEDPA]

We had a gentleman in our program that was a Jesuit Brother with a bachelors in theology and wanting to be a priest before changing his mind to want to be a PA. He was very compassionate and and demonstrated an overwhelming desire to be a PA. Do you turn individuals like that away because they have no previous HCE?/QUOTE]

 

sure, he sounds like a great applicant but how does he know that he likes health care? what if the small of blood makes him vomit or he can't handle the suffering of others? I hate it when folks get into pa school, complete the first yr then find out during the clinical yr that they are not suited for medicine but have too much invested to quit at that point. that is one of the reasons hce has value, to introduce potential future pa's to the realities of medicine. even low level hce like cna can show you if a career in medicine is right for you or not.

going to pa school without prior health care experience/exposure is like dedicating your life to be a park ranger without ever first having gone hiking in a national park or becoming a priest without ever having gone to church.

[EMEDPA]

We had a gentleman in our program that was a Jesuit Brother with a bachelors in theology and wanting to be a priest before changing his mind to want to be a PA. He was very compassionate and and demonstrated an overwhelming desire to be a PA. Do you turn individuals like that away because they have no previous HCE?/QUOTE]

 

sure, he sounds like a great applicant but how does he know that he likes health care? what if the small of blood makes him vomit or he can't handle the suffering of others? I hate it when folks get into pa school, complete the first yr then find out during the clinical yr that they are not suited for medicine but have too much invested to quit at that point. that is one of the reasons hce has value, to introduce potential future pa's to the realities of medicine. even low level hce like cna can show you if a career in medicine is right for you or not.

going to pa school without prior health care experience/exposure is like dedicating your life to be a park ranger without ever first having gone hiking in a national park or becoming a priest without ever having gone to church.

[acozadd]

We had a gentleman in our program that was a Jesuit Brother with a bachelors in theology and wanting to be a priest before changing his mind to want to be a PA. He was very compassionate and and demonstrated an overwhelming desire to be a PA. Do you turn individuals like that away because they have no previous HCE?/QUOTE]

 

sure, he sounds like a great applicant but how does he know that he likes health care? what if the small of blood makes him vomit or he can't handle the suffering of others? I hate it when folks get into pa school, complete the first yr then find out during the clinical yr that they are not suited for medicine but have too much invested to quit at that point. that is one of the reasons hce has value, to introduce potential future pa's to the realities of medicine. even low level hce like cna can show you if a career in medicine is right for you or not.

going to pa school without prior health care experience/exposure is like dedicating your life to be a park ranger without ever first having gone hiking in a national park or becoming a priest without ever having gone to church.

 

I do agree with this point. However, if you look at most students heading into other professions, did they shadow/work in the field prior to going to school? Do you see a lot of people shadowing engineers, accountants, businessmen, librarians, etc? I feel everyone should be well educated in regards to what they are getting themselves in to, but that seems to be somewhat of a rarity outside of medicine.

[acozadd]

We had a gentleman in our program that was a Jesuit Brother with a bachelors in theology and wanting to be a priest before changing his mind to want to be a PA. He was very compassionate and and demonstrated an overwhelming desire to be a PA. Do you turn individuals like that away because they have no previous HCE?/QUOTE]

 

sure, he sounds like a great applicant but how does he know that he likes health care? what if the small of blood makes him vomit or he can't handle the suffering of others? I hate it when folks get into pa school, complete the first yr then find out during the clinical yr that they are not suited for medicine but have too much invested to quit at that point. that is one of the reasons hce has value, to introduce potential future pa's to the realities of medicine. even low level hce like cna can show you if a career in medicine is right for you or not.

going to pa school without prior health care experience/exposure is like dedicating your life to be a park ranger without ever first having gone hiking in a national park or becoming a priest without ever having gone to church.

 

I do agree with this point. However, if you look at most students heading into other professions, did they shadow/work in the field prior to going to school? Do you see a lot of people shadowing engineers, accountants, businessmen, librarians, etc? I feel everyone should be well educated in regards to what they are getting themselves in to, but that seems to be somewhat of a rarity outside of medicine.

[Guest hubbardtim48]

I did the same thing throughout my undergraduate and graduate degree. I gained very good experience that helped me understand how the hospital is run and let myself be more comfortable in different types of situations. Shadowing is great, but does not offer the skills needed to become a good PA. What I mean by this is that while working in the health care system (having a licensure/certification) one can feel comfortable talking to other health care professionals about a patients case, learn to communicate with family in an effective manner, be comfortable around the patient, seeing codes, procedures, transporting, how to chart on patients and all the millions little things one picks up from being in a health care settings for months to years. I just do not want to see programs neglect the HCE and I think it should be one of the top 2 or 3 things the applicant should have.

[Guest hubbardtim48]

I did the same thing throughout my undergraduate and graduate degree. I gained very good experience that helped me understand how the hospital is run and let myself be more comfortable in different types of situations. Shadowing is great, but does not offer the skills needed to become a good PA. What I mean by this is that while working in the health care system (having a licensure/certification) one can feel comfortable talking to other health care professionals about a patients case, learn to communicate with family in an effective manner, be comfortable around the patient, seeing codes, procedures, transporting, how to chart on patients and all the millions little things one picks up from being in a health care settings for months to years. I just do not want to see programs neglect the HCE and I think it should be one of the top 2 or 3 things the applicant should have.

[Guest hubbardtim48]

I was just referring to how my RT experience could benefit in different aspects of a PAs daily life. My entire goal as a PA is to give back to my community.

[Guest hubbardtim48]

I was just referring to how my RT experience could benefit in different aspects of a PAs daily life. My entire goal as a PA is to give back to my community.

[Guest hubbardtim48]

I couldn't have said it better myself. I have several friends in DO school and some that have graduated and yes their MCATs were 25-29 and GPAs were 3.4-3.7. Who CARES! These people are practicing medicine as good as the next person and I agree that people should not have perfect scores because it takes away from the well roundedness of that person because they are always studying and not working or volunteering, etc. (I am saying this because some of my friends were like this n=5). So, I know this does not fit everyone and people with 4.0 and 35 MCATS are great doctors also, but I came from that other applicant pool that has years of great HCE, traveled the world doing outreach missions, volunteering in the community and living life! So, yes I am partial to MY upbringing and have an opinion that I think it better suits me and better prepares applicants for the real world.

[Guest hubbardtim48]

I couldn't have said it better myself. I have several friends in DO school and some that have graduated and yes their MCATs were 25-29 and GPAs were 3.4-3.7. Who CARES! These people are practicing medicine as good as the next person and I agree that people should not have perfect scores because it takes away from the well roundedness of that person because they are always studying and not working or volunteering, etc. (I am saying this because some of my friends were like this n=5). So, I know this does not fit everyone and people with 4.0 and 35 MCATS are great doctors also, but I came from that other applicant pool that has years of great HCE, traveled the world doing outreach missions, volunteering in the community and living life! So, yes I am partial to MY upbringing and have an opinion that I think it better suits me and better prepares applicants for the real world.

[andersenpa]

Very well stated phyasst. PAMAC and Contrarian always seemed to want to see “the cup half-empty” when it comes to any issues of the Academy. Based on their negativism it's quite clear to me that neither has apparently ever been involved in a professional organization. Maybe they should give it a try and they will see that things are not always what they appeared to be. I would compare them to an individual we had in Ohio who’s attitude was exactly as theirs. Always complaining, writing negative letters and e-mails about the Association’s ineptitudes. One night many years ago during a state conference meeting, over several glasses of very extensive Scotch, another PA and I challenged this individual to get involved. Reluctantly he did and not less than 4 years later he was elected as a regional director to the BOD and eventually became President of the Association. He recently ran and was elected to a second term as president. I'm not trying to say that these to individuals are not entitled to their opinions, but unless they have walked in those shoes of leadership within this profession I think their negative comments are counterproductive to the progression of the profession. And if you are that unhappy, you might want to reevaluate your career choice, maybe you should become physicians and then you will get all the autonomy and independence that you want.

 

 

We've seen similar comments on this forum before.

I'll say the same thing again:

Are the opinions of rank-and-file PAs less valid because they have never served in a leadership position?

Taking the stance that PAs with criticisms should hold their tongue until they've served state/national is no more legitimate than "working joe" PAs dismissing leadership PAs for not being 100% clinical.

 

ALSO.....

Why is it that when a PA is unhappy with the status quo that they should "reevaluate their career choice"?

Why is it that PAs looking to make PROGRESS for our profession (more autonomy, fewer antiquated supervisory regulations, more career options like bridge programs) are "dissed" for not seeing your glass half full (must be half full of dues payments?)

 

Why is it that supporting IN CONCEPT the idea of bridge programs is a bad thing? This would create more physicians who would be former-PAs. It seems THESE are the docs who PAs would want, docs who would be PA advocates. Is a former PA physician going to hire an NP or a PA?

[andersenpa]

Very well stated phyasst. PAMAC and Contrarian always seemed to want to see “the cup half-empty” when it comes to any issues of the Academy. Based on their negativism it's quite clear to me that neither has apparently ever been involved in a professional organization. Maybe they should give it a try and they will see that things are not always what they appeared to be. I would compare them to an individual we had in Ohio who’s attitude was exactly as theirs. Always complaining, writing negative letters and e-mails about the Association’s ineptitudes. One night many years ago during a state conference meeting, over several glasses of very extensive Scotch, another PA and I challenged this individual to get involved. Reluctantly he did and not less than 4 years later he was elected as a regional director to the BOD and eventually became President of the Association. He recently ran and was elected to a second term as president. I'm not trying to say that these to individuals are not entitled to their opinions, but unless they have walked in those shoes of leadership within this profession I think their negative comments are counterproductive to the progression of the profession. And if you are that unhappy, you might want to reevaluate your career choice, maybe you should become physicians and then you will get all the autonomy and independence that you want.

 

 

We've seen similar comments on this forum before.

I'll say the same thing again:

Are the opinions of rank-and-file PAs less valid because they have never served in a leadership position?

Taking the stance that PAs with criticisms should hold their tongue until they've served state/national is no more legitimate than "working joe" PAs dismissing leadership PAs for not being 100% clinical.

 

ALSO.....

Why is it that when a PA is unhappy with the status quo that they should "reevaluate their career choice"?

Why is it that PAs looking to make PROGRESS for our profession (more autonomy, fewer antiquated supervisory regulations, more career options like bridge programs) are "dissed" for not seeing your glass half full (must be half full of dues payments?)

 

Why is it that supporting IN CONCEPT the idea of bridge programs is a bad thing? This would create more physicians who would be former-PAs. It seems THESE are the docs who PAs would want, docs who would be PA advocates. Is a former PA physician going to hire an NP or a PA?

[andersenpa]

im just wondering why PA educators are moving away from choosing candidates with great HCE vs bright new grads/good med school candidates.

 

Does one of these groups end up making a "better" PA than the other?

[andersenpa]

im just wondering why PA educators are moving away from choosing candidates with great HCE vs bright new grads/good med school candidates.

 

Does one of these groups end up making a "better" PA than the other?

[jdtpac]

Does one of these groups end up making a "better" PA than the other?

I can answer that question unequivocally, no. This observation comes from my experiences as a working manager of a hospital-based medical and surgical PA Department and as a lead PA for an emergency medicine group. Each group has their advantages and disadvantages. The group with previous HCE may have an advantage early on in their careers but over the span of a career I don't think you can say either group is any better than the other. Having a solid base of knowledge and providing competent service comes with hard work and dedication to your profession. Currently the only measurement we can use to determine competency is our recertification process which both groups are required to take. I think the only way you could measure a difference is by having a research study done to see if there is any difference over time between the 2 groups.

[jdtpac]

Does one of these groups end up making a "better" PA than the other?

I can answer that question unequivocally, no. This observation comes from my experiences as a working manager of a hospital-based medical and surgical PA Department and as a lead PA for an emergency medicine group. Each group has their advantages and disadvantages. The group with previous HCE may have an advantage early on in their careers but over the span of a career I don't think you can say either group is any better than the other. Having a solid base of knowledge and providing competent service comes with hard work and dedication to your profession. Currently the only measurement we can use to determine competency is our recertification process which both groups are required to take. I think the only way you could measure a difference is by having a research study done to see if there is any difference over time between the 2 groups.

[andersenpa]

Currently the only measurement we can use to determine competency is our recertification process which both groups are required to take. I think the only way you could measure a difference is by having a research study done to see if there is any difference over time between the 2 groups.

 

A pretty poor measure, then.

PANRE covers less than 15 of its content on my practice, and this is true for most specialty PAs.

 

I have always felt that HCE is overrated in today's PA education, but there will have to be a better measure of competence than a one-size-fits-all exam.

 

And you did not address my questions in post #144.

[andersenpa]

Currently the only measurement we can use to determine competency is our recertification process which both groups are required to take. I think the only way you could measure a difference is by having a research study done to see if there is any difference over time between the 2 groups.

 

A pretty poor measure, then.

PANRE covers less than 15 of its content on my practice, and this is true for most specialty PAs.

 

I have always felt that HCE is overrated in today's PA education, but there will have to be a better measure of competence than a one-size-fits-all exam.

 

And you did not address my questions in post #144.

[EMEDPA]

 

I feel everyone should be well educated in regards to what they are getting themselves in to, but that seems to be somewhat of a rarity outside of medicine.

wait, did we just agree on something? alert the media....:)

[EMEDPA]

 

I feel everyone should be well educated in regards to what they are getting themselves in to, but that seems to be somewhat of a rarity outside of medicine.

wait, did we just agree on something? alert the media....:)

[jdtpac]

Andersenpa,

“A pretty poor measure, then.

PANRE covers less than 15 of its content on my practice, and this is true for most specialty PAs.

 

I have always felt that HCE is overrated in today's PA education, but there will have to be a better measure of competence than a one-size-fits-all exam.”

 

I probably would agree with you 100% on recertification if I wasn't concerned with specialty certification possibly jeopardizing the hallmark of our profession which is flexibility to adapt to the changing needs of our healthcare system. It's a real Catch-22. I would like to see us find some way to address the needs of PA is practicing in subspecialties without requiring a certification to be eligible to practice in a specialty or also possibly risking having them pigeonholed into that specialty. (If that makes sense to you)

I was glad to see that the joint commission is requiring more measurement of competency for individuals practicing in hospitals. The only problem is there is no standardization of what parameters need to be measured to determine competency within a particular discipline. It's up to each individual institution to determine what they want to measure. To pass the joint commissions accreditation you just have to demonstrate that you have policies requiring each providers practice to be reviewed and that you're following your own policies.

And I'm not really a fan of patient satisfaction scoring/surveys to measure competency or quality of service.

“And you did not address my questions in post #144”.

 

Give me some time, these questions are a little complex. I promise I will address them.

 

[jdtpac]

Andersenpa,

“A pretty poor measure, then.

PANRE covers less than 15 of its content on my practice, and this is true for most specialty PAs.

 

I have always felt that HCE is overrated in today's PA education, but there will have to be a better measure of competence than a one-size-fits-all exam.”

 

I probably would agree with you 100% on recertification if I wasn't concerned with specialty certification possibly jeopardizing the hallmark of our profession which is flexibility to adapt to the changing needs of our healthcare system. It's a real Catch-22. I would like to see us find some way to address the needs of PA is practicing in subspecialties without requiring a certification to be eligible to practice in a specialty or also possibly risking having them pigeonholed into that specialty. (If that makes sense to you)

I was glad to see that the joint commission is requiring more measurement of competency for individuals practicing in hospitals. The only problem is there is no standardization of what parameters need to be measured to determine competency within a particular discipline. It's up to each individual institution to determine what they want to measure. To pass the joint commissions accreditation you just have to demonstrate that you have policies requiring each providers practice to be reviewed and that you're following your own policies.

And I'm not really a fan of patient satisfaction scoring/surveys to measure competency or quality of service.

“And you did not address my questions in post #144”.

 

Give me some time, these questions are a little complex. I promise I will address them.

 

[andersenpa]

Andersenpa,

“A pretty poor measure, then.

PANRE covers less than 15 of its content on my practice, and this is true for most specialty PAs

 

missed a shift key

meant to say 1% not 15

[andersenpa]

Andersenpa,

“A pretty poor measure, then.

PANRE covers less than 15 of its content on my practice, and this is true for most specialty PAs

 

missed a shift key

meant to say 1% not 15

[jdtpac]

so what agenda is driving the trend away from recruiting health care professionals to stock PA schools. if folks with HCE fare better at first, but it levels out later on, why not just have the person that hits the ground running? im not trying to drive home the notion that HCE makes better PAs, im highlighting how agenda driven much of the activism towards recruiting and aapa policy priorities are. it lends to the notion of the inneficacy of the leadership in accomplishing goals that many forum PAs seem to want them to focus on. anyone who says that there arent enough resources to go around to accomplish everything everyone wants is correct, but good examples of agenda items that could easily bear fruit are name change, and bridge program endorsement. they dont have to accomplish those realities, all folks here seem to be asking for is that a position in favor of those things be enacted. they are hiding behind an arguement where they say "it isnt likely to happen, so lets not even rock the boat with the notion.... lets spend time advocating for _____(fill in the blank item that mirrors what the AMA is doing)____. i think thats where a lot of the ire comes from. yeah, the ANA gets stuff done and has a large warchest and army. however, they DONT accomplish a lot more of thier agenda each year than they DO accomplish. the difference is that they arent afraid to try. thats why i see them as the streetfighters that the AAPA isnt. even if they didnt have the money on thier side, i have a hard time believing they wouldnt put the best use thier meetings and brainstorming sessions. they have the ridiculous DNP because they werent afraid to throw down on brash proposals that they felt would carry some impact. love it or hate it, its a reflection of them getting in faces and looking to make waves. a simple endorsement of a couple of areas is more than AAPA can bear? "gotta send if back to the comittee for further study! thats some big doins! this could really blow up in our faces if we dont handle it like an egg." and thats the attitude of the folks to scared to get in the game. its not a matter of resources, its a matter of heart.

 

There is no agenda intentionally driving away individuals with previous HCE and certainly not an AAPA policy that would ever support it. Competition in the marketplace with the APNs has been the driving force behind the proliferation of Masters level PA programs, and that is the unmitigated truth. Individuals with previous HCE such as paramedics, EMTs, RT’S, military corpsmen and even some nursing professionals which in the past had no problem getting into PA programs are now finding it more difficult because a large percentage of those individuals do not have baccalaureate degrees. Unfortunately for them this is now the minimum requirement for getting into PA school. And that is not going to go away. The degree creep train for PA education pulled out of the station a long time ago. I know of several individuals that I have worked with that I tried to convince that they were PA material but they either did not want to return to school to complete their baccalaureate degree or if they had the proper credentials they didn't want to move in order to attend a program.

 

“it lends to the notion of the inneficacy of the leadership in accomplishing goals that many forum PAs seem to want them to focus on”.

 

Can you answer that question for me please. What is your definition (or understanding) of who and what AAPA leadership is?? What lack of power, as you have implied, is prevalent in leadership that prevents them from achieving the goals you mentioned?