PA to MD alternative

[Guest hubbardtim48]

I am going into rural family practice with an emphasis on asthma/allergy. I would like to do CC or ER, but my life style does not suit having odd hour shifts and working weekends. I want to give back to my community through education and prevention and primary care is one way to follow this goal. Not to say that I might not work PRN in a rural ER, but my main goal as a PA is to practice family medicine, so I will be keeping the PA heritage alive.

[acozadd]

I am going into rural family practice with an emphasis on asthma/allergy. I would like to do CC or ER, but my life style does not suit having odd hour shifts and working weekends. I want to give back to my community through education and prevention and primary care is one way to follow this goal. Not to say that I might not work PRN in a rural ER, but my main goal as a PA is to practice family medicine, so I will be keeping the PA heritage alive.

 

While I believe you stated otherwise in this thread-- if this is true good for you. You do realize that would be condeming you to a life of not touching any vents however, correct? Wasn't that what you stated would be a selling point on you getting a job out of school-- not needing training in those skills?

[acozadd]

I am going into rural family practice with an emphasis on asthma/allergy. I would like to do CC or ER, but my life style does not suit having odd hour shifts and working weekends. I want to give back to my community through education and prevention and primary care is one way to follow this goal. Not to say that I might not work PRN in a rural ER, but my main goal as a PA is to practice family medicine, so I will be keeping the PA heritage alive.

 

While I believe you stated otherwise in this thread-- if this is true good for you. You do realize that would be condeming you to a life of not touching any vents however, correct? Wasn't that what you stated would be a selling point on you getting a job out of school-- not needing training in those skills?

[Guest hubbardtim48]

I never showed a lack of professionalism in my opinion, but say what you want to jdtpac. I understand your concerns, but trying to keep the PA heritage alive is something I strive for and think it is something very important. I am glad you have been a PA for a while and thank you for your service. No harm intended in the prior post(s).

[Guest hubbardtim48]

I never showed a lack of professionalism in my opinion, but say what you want to jdtpac. I understand your concerns, but trying to keep the PA heritage alive is something I strive for and think it is something very important. I am glad you have been a PA for a while and thank you for your service. No harm intended in the prior post(s).

[jdtpac]

what is the advantage that they have vs folks with hce? there has to be some logic behind prefering them over the latter. what makes them more effective? were the ones with hce ignoring you or giving you the impression that they werent capable?

 

 

I was not implying that applicants with no previous HCE should have any advantage over individuals that do, nor should the reverse be the same. I was on a steering committee for a PA program in my area several years ago when this topic came up. We all agreed that with the high demand for PAs in this country we were not going to eliminate a perspective candidate based solely on the fact that they did not have any previous HCE. Because of all programs are now at the Masters degree level we did not see any need for requiring a perspective candidate to having to have a gap between receiving their baccalaureate degree and applying for PA school just to get some HCE. We the candidates were measured on their overall evaluation of their community involvement, GPA, GRE, essays, their references and interviews.

[jdtpac]

what is the advantage that they have vs folks with hce? there has to be some logic behind prefering them over the latter. what makes them more effective? were the ones with hce ignoring you or giving you the impression that they werent capable?

 

 

I was not implying that applicants with no previous HCE should have any advantage over individuals that do, nor should the reverse be the same. I was on a steering committee for a PA program in my area several years ago when this topic came up. We all agreed that with the high demand for PAs in this country we were not going to eliminate a perspective candidate based solely on the fact that they did not have any previous HCE. Because of all programs are now at the Masters degree level we did not see any need for requiring a perspective candidate to having to have a gap between receiving their baccalaureate degree and applying for PA school just to get some HCE. We the candidates were measured on their overall evaluation of their community involvement, GPA, GRE, essays, their references and interviews.

[EMEDPA]

we did not see any need for requiring a perspective candidate to having to have a gap between receiving their baccalaureate degree and applying for PA school just to get some HCE.

What's wrong with getting experience while in school at a part time job? or going to school part time and working part time. many folks did this. I worked 26 hrs/week during the yr and 60 hrs/week summers while taking 20 units most terms and graduated on time with a good gpa.

a poor quality applicant pool is not a reason to lower standards. what happens when there are 200 pa programs? or 250? do we say seeing a pa on TV fulfills the shadowing requirement? it's a slippery slope and we are pretty far down it already...

[EMEDPA]

we did not see any need for requiring a perspective candidate to having to have a gap between receiving their baccalaureate degree and applying for PA school just to get some HCE.

What's wrong with getting experience while in school at a part time job? or going to school part time and working part time. many folks did this. I worked 26 hrs/week during the yr and 60 hrs/week summers while taking 20 units most terms and graduated on time with a good gpa.

a poor quality applicant pool is not a reason to lower standards. what happens when there are 200 pa programs? or 250? do we say seeing a pa on TV fulfills the shadowing requirement? it's a slippery slope and we are pretty far down it already...

[jdtpac]

PAMAC, it has nothing to do with "dragging their heels"

 

The AAPA has finite resources. Would you rather have them focus attention, money, and commit time and resources to helping PAs (only about 1% want to) become physicians, or should they focus on issues for the other 99%???

 

I'd rather they focus on the name change...I'd rather they focus on the roll out of PPACA and making sure that PAs are favorably included. I'd rather they focus on increasing autonomy and practice of PAs......

 

They don't have a gigantic staff or a war chest like the AMA has.

 

The AAPA dues are RIDICULOUSLY cheap when compared to what our physician colleagues pay...This is why they have power.

 

Power comes down to two things.....Number of voters (think nurses) OR money (think physicians)

 

We have neither. So the AAPA has to pick and choose their battles. They cannot get into EVERY scuffle regarding the PA profession. They simply cannot....

 

 

Very well stated phyasst. PAMAC and Contrarian always seemed to want to see “the cup half-empty” when it comes to any issues of the Academy. Based on their negativism it's quite clear to me that neither has apparently ever been involved in a professional organization. Maybe they should give it a try and they will see that things are not always what they appeared to be. I would compare them to an individual we had in Ohio who’s attitude was exactly as theirs. Always complaining, writing negative letters and e-mails about the Association’s ineptitudes. One night many years ago during a state conference meeting, over several glasses of very extensive Scotch, another PA and I challenged this individual to get involved. Reluctantly he did and not less than 4 years later he was elected as a regional director to the BOD and eventually became President of the Association. He recently ran and was elected to a second term as president. I'm not trying to say that these to individuals are not entitled to their opinions, but unless they have walked in those shoes of leadership within this profession I think their negative comments are counterproductive to the progression of the profession. And if you are that unhappy, you might want to reevaluate your career choice, maybe you should become physicians and then you will get all the autonomy and independence that you want.

[jdtpac]

PAMAC, it has nothing to do with "dragging their heels"

 

The AAPA has finite resources. Would you rather have them focus attention, money, and commit time and resources to helping PAs (only about 1% want to) become physicians, or should they focus on issues for the other 99%???

 

I'd rather they focus on the name change...I'd rather they focus on the roll out of PPACA and making sure that PAs are favorably included. I'd rather they focus on increasing autonomy and practice of PAs......

 

They don't have a gigantic staff or a war chest like the AMA has.

 

The AAPA dues are RIDICULOUSLY cheap when compared to what our physician colleagues pay...This is why they have power.

 

Power comes down to two things.....Number of voters (think nurses) OR money (think physicians)

 

We have neither. So the AAPA has to pick and choose their battles. They cannot get into EVERY scuffle regarding the PA profession. They simply cannot....

 

 

Very well stated phyasst. PAMAC and Contrarian always seemed to want to see “the cup half-empty” when it comes to any issues of the Academy. Based on their negativism it's quite clear to me that neither has apparently ever been involved in a professional organization. Maybe they should give it a try and they will see that things are not always what they appeared to be. I would compare them to an individual we had in Ohio who’s attitude was exactly as theirs. Always complaining, writing negative letters and e-mails about the Association’s ineptitudes. One night many years ago during a state conference meeting, over several glasses of very extensive Scotch, another PA and I challenged this individual to get involved. Reluctantly he did and not less than 4 years later he was elected as a regional director to the BOD and eventually became President of the Association. He recently ran and was elected to a second term as president. I'm not trying to say that these to individuals are not entitled to their opinions, but unless they have walked in those shoes of leadership within this profession I think their negative comments are counterproductive to the progression of the profession. And if you are that unhappy, you might want to reevaluate your career choice, maybe you should become physicians and then you will get all the autonomy and independence that you want.

[EMEDPA]

im just wondering why PA educators are moving away from choosing candidates with great HCE vs bright new grads/good med school candidates.

Because there are more 4.0 22 yr olds than 3.5 30 yr old paramedics/rn's/rt's/etc.

I do have some hope for the futute for a few reasons:

1. Obama's plan to recruit military medics to pa schools.

2. several programs in the making which will require significant hce. brand new "old school" programs. gotta love it. that's what happens when an old school pa becomes a program director...

[EMEDPA]

im just wondering why PA educators are moving away from choosing candidates with great HCE vs bright new grads/good med school candidates.

Because there are more 4.0 22 yr olds than 3.5 30 yr old paramedics/rn's/rt's/etc.

I do have some hope for the futute for a few reasons:

1. Obama's plan to recruit military medics to pa schools.

2. several programs in the making which will require significant hce. brand new "old school" programs. gotta love it. that's what happens when an old school pa becomes a program director...

[jdtpac]

so, was there a shortage of people with hce experience that were applying, and you werent filling seats, and therefore opted to expand the applicant pool? the high demand for PA's exists, but whats THE REASON for making a competetive process even more competetive? thats what im asking. you present it like expanding the applicant pool was critical to the success of providing more PAs to the nation. im a bit in the middle between the folks that demand tons of good HCE, and those that could care less, so im not pushing an agenda. i see logic in both. im just wondering why PA educators are moving away from choosing candidates with great HCE vs bright new grads/good med school candidates.

 

 

No, there was no shortage of applicants. Nor did we see any necessity in continually requiring that ALL applicants to have the 2 years of HCE that had been required previously. As a matter of fact we originally reduce the 2 years to one year and then eventually dropped it completely as a mandatory requirement. The program became a mixture of both types of individuals. I'm not sure if you have ever been involved in the interviewing process for a program but if you ever get a chance to do so I think you might formulate a little different opinion. I have been involved in that process and the attitudes that some individuals with previous HCE bring to their interview is embarrasing to say the least. No enthusiasm but entitlement. Not embracing individuals that do not have HCE is likened to not accepting new graduates for job applications.

The profession is getting younger, the demand for our service is getting greater and if we are going to address all these issues of competitiveness in the marketplace with APN’s we need to support every individual with the compassion and desire to be part of this profession.

[jdtpac]

so, was there a shortage of people with hce experience that were applying, and you werent filling seats, and therefore opted to expand the applicant pool? the high demand for PA's exists, but whats THE REASON for making a competetive process even more competetive? thats what im asking. you present it like expanding the applicant pool was critical to the success of providing more PAs to the nation. im a bit in the middle between the folks that demand tons of good HCE, and those that could care less, so im not pushing an agenda. i see logic in both. im just wondering why PA educators are moving away from choosing candidates with great HCE vs bright new grads/good med school candidates.

 

 

No, there was no shortage of applicants. Nor did we see any necessity in continually requiring that ALL applicants to have the 2 years of HCE that had been required previously. As a matter of fact we originally reduce the 2 years to one year and then eventually dropped it completely as a mandatory requirement. The program became a mixture of both types of individuals. I'm not sure if you have ever been involved in the interviewing process for a program but if you ever get a chance to do so I think you might formulate a little different opinion. I have been involved in that process and the attitudes that some individuals with previous HCE bring to their interview is embarrasing to say the least. No enthusiasm but entitlement. Not embracing individuals that do not have HCE is likened to not accepting new graduates for job applications.

The profession is getting younger, the demand for our service is getting greater and if we are going to address all these issues of competitiveness in the marketplace with APN’s we need to support every individual with the compassion and desire to be part of this profession.

[EMEDPA]

we need to support every individual with the compassion and desire to be part of this profession.

compassion and desire do not equal capacity. I know lots of compassionate folks who desire to do lots of things who shouldn't. color blind folks shouldn't be pilots. I will never play in the nba/nhl/nfl despite my desire.

a kind heart and a desire to be a pa are good qualities but they shouldn't be the only qualities we look at.

I think the DO's have it right in their admissions focus. they look for "well rounded" folks with "life experience" and often turn down folks with high gpa's and perfect mcats if they don't think they are the right fit for their program.

[EMEDPA]

we need to support every individual with the compassion and desire to be part of this profession.

compassion and desire do not equal capacity. I know lots of compassionate folks who desire to do lots of things who shouldn't. color blind folks shouldn't be pilots. I will never play in the nba/nhl/nfl despite my desire.

a kind heart and a desire to be a pa are good qualities but they shouldn't be the only qualities we look at.

I think the DO's have it right in their admissions focus. they look for "well rounded" folks with "life experience" and often turn down folks with high gpa's and perfect mcats if they don't think they are the right fit for their program.

[paul2834]

compassion and desire do not equal capacity.

 

I must preface my opinion with the fact that I'm not a PA and I have zero paid HCE, so take the following however you will knowing that first. I don't think HCE necessarily equates to potential PA-dom capacity either. I volunteer at a local hospital, so I'm surrounded by many people with vast amounts of HCE. However, I'm not convinced that all of them or even most of them understand or have the potential to understand the underlying basic sciences as to why and when the procedures they do all the time should be done. In my mind, I would be more convinced by someone who has demonstrated the ability to understand complex systems and how they intertwine with one another and be able to manipulate that in a professional environment even if it's not in the medical sciences. There are certain kinds of HCE that do that and there are some that are just manually taxing.

[paul2834]

compassion and desire do not equal capacity.

 

I must preface my opinion with the fact that I'm not a PA and I have zero paid HCE, so take the following however you will knowing that first. I don't think HCE necessarily equates to potential PA-dom capacity either. I volunteer at a local hospital, so I'm surrounded by many people with vast amounts of HCE. However, I'm not convinced that all of them or even most of them understand or have the potential to understand the underlying basic sciences as to why and when the procedures they do all the time should be done. In my mind, I would be more convinced by someone who has demonstrated the ability to understand complex systems and how they intertwine with one another and be able to manipulate that in a professional environment even if it's not in the medical sciences. There are certain kinds of HCE that do that and there are some that are just manually taxing.

[jdtpac]

compassion and desire do not equal capacity. I know lots of compassionate folks who desire to do lots of things who shouldn't. color blind folks shouldn't be pilots. I will never play in the nba/nhl/nfl despite my desire.

a kind heart and a desire to be a pa are good qualities but they shouldn't be the only qualities we look at.

I think the DO's have it right in their admissions focus. they look for "well rounded" folks with "life experience" and often turn down folks with high gpa's and perfect mcats if they don't think they are the right fit for their program.

 

Agreed. But that doesn't necessarily mean previous HCE. We had a gentleman in our program that was a Jesuit Brother with a bachelors in theology and wanting to be a priest before changing his mind to want to be a PA. He was very compassionate and and demonstrated an overwhelming desire to be a PA. Do you turn individuals like that away because they have no previous HCE? And I am glad you mentioned Obama's program to get military corpsmen into PA school. This is where our profession was rooted. Unfortunately, the majority of them do not have any secondary education and most likely will need to finish that schooling before applying to PA programs. Where do you think these individuals should be going to PA school? There are very limited programs available at this time even with people that do have previous HCE and no baccalaureate degrees to get into the overwhelming number of programs that require that degree.

[jdtpac]

compassion and desire do not equal capacity. I know lots of compassionate folks who desire to do lots of things who shouldn't. color blind folks shouldn't be pilots. I will never play in the nba/nhl/nfl despite my desire.

a kind heart and a desire to be a pa are good qualities but they shouldn't be the only qualities we look at.

I think the DO's have it right in their admissions focus. they look for "well rounded" folks with "life experience" and often turn down folks with high gpa's and perfect mcats if they don't think they are the right fit for their program.

 

Agreed. But that doesn't necessarily mean previous HCE. We had a gentleman in our program that was a Jesuit Brother with a bachelors in theology and wanting to be a priest before changing his mind to want to be a PA. He was very compassionate and and demonstrated an overwhelming desire to be a PA. Do you turn individuals like that away because they have no previous HCE? And I am glad you mentioned Obama's program to get military corpsmen into PA school. This is where our profession was rooted. Unfortunately, the majority of them do not have any secondary education and most likely will need to finish that schooling before applying to PA programs. Where do you think these individuals should be going to PA school? There are very limited programs available at this time even with people that do have previous HCE and no baccalaureate degrees to get into the overwhelming number of programs that require that degree.

[acozadd]

I think the DO's have it right in their admissions focus. they look for "well rounded" folks with "life experience" and often turn down folks with high gpa's and perfect mcats if they don't think they are the right fit for their program.

 

 

Coming from a DO school and knowing countless people in DO programs (including some very close friends), they are no different (in my experience) from MD programs... with the addition of OMM. Their student population is no different than the MD student population I have encountered. Maybe it is different in your neck of the woods. Are there any quantitive measures showing that these DO students have more "life experience," or do they just seem more tolerant because they have a less competitive applicant pool overall so those with less than stellar stats (aka an older individual looking for a career change) might have a shot at admission.

[acozadd]

I think the DO's have it right in their admissions focus. they look for "well rounded" folks with "life experience" and often turn down folks with high gpa's and perfect mcats if they don't think they are the right fit for their program.

 

 

Coming from a DO school and knowing countless people in DO programs (including some very close friends), they are no different (in my experience) from MD programs... with the addition of OMM. Their student population is no different than the MD student population I have encountered. Maybe it is different in your neck of the woods. Are there any quantitive measures showing that these DO students have more "life experience," or do they just seem more tolerant because they have a less competitive applicant pool overall so those with less than stellar stats (aka an older individual looking for a career change) might have a shot at admission.

[jdtpac]

EARNED THE PRIVELAGE OF THE FLOOR? everyone has to stand down from you bloviating because of that? earn your place by presenting logical defenses for the opinions you throw out there, dont demant it without merit among those who dont owe you anything.

 

 

Oh, I so much enjoy our late-night debates on this forum. It keeps me off those mindless sitcoms of network TV or watching their endless reruns on syndicated cable. Opine what you will of my comments that you've claimed are bloviating but I do not believe they are any less pompous than your own. Yes I often challenge someone's opinion and may make comments that are contrary to what is popular on this forum or your own, but I believe that the debate should be collegial and the rebuttal not rude or demeaning just because someone's views are different. I may not say what you want to hear, I will admit to that, but I always present and defend facts about the profession that are current and not just suppositions. And I don't believe I need to defend my logic anymore than anyone else that shares their opinions on this forum. It's up to each reader to decide which side of the debate they choose more logical. It's getting late, I think I’ll retired for the evening.

[jdtpac]

EARNED THE PRIVELAGE OF THE FLOOR? everyone has to stand down from you bloviating because of that? earn your place by presenting logical defenses for the opinions you throw out there, dont demant it without merit among those who dont owe you anything.

 

 

Oh, I so much enjoy our late-night debates on this forum. It keeps me off those mindless sitcoms of network TV or watching their endless reruns on syndicated cable. Opine what you will of my comments that you've claimed are bloviating but I do not believe they are any less pompous than your own. Yes I often challenge someone's opinion and may make comments that are contrary to what is popular on this forum or your own, but I believe that the debate should be collegial and the rebuttal not rude or demeaning just because someone's views are different. I may not say what you want to hear, I will admit to that, but I always present and defend facts about the profession that are current and not just suppositions. And I don't believe I need to defend my logic anymore than anyone else that shares their opinions on this forum. It's up to each reader to decide which side of the debate they choose more logical. It's getting late, I think I’ll retired for the evening.