Future PA to DO bridges

[cobramarty]

Brainlock says it quite clearly.

 

There are prerequisites for medical school that PA's are lacking i.e. biology II, chemistry II, organic chem I + II, physics I + II, MCATs.

I don't get it, in another post about MD to PA there were lots of arguments including the importance of the 'journey' and attitude and not the tests. Here in the PA to MD you have the opposite arguments and want to skip over some classes when you don't even meet the minimum course requirements for entrance.

 

"I then say that the information that is new, ie the basic sciences, really isn't as clinically relevent... There is definitely new information that will be presented but imo a practicing PA going to medical school so that they can learn about the metabolism of a specific protein or to memorize a detailed cascade in immunology isn't going to prepare them any better for treating patients than where they were when they started the process."

This is wrong- it is relevant to the in depth knowledge of pathophysiology of the human being. It is this depth of knowledge that makes the difference.

 

I'll give you an analogy which you seem to like, a 20yo female comes to see you with an abscess with surrounding cellulitis and is allergic to PCN, got a rash to a ? med she took in college for UTI, and got C.Diff. from clindamycin for a tooth abscess last year. What antibiotic do you use?

Another is the elderly hispanic female who comes to you after going to the movies with her translating daughter with severe eye pain and loss of some vision. She is a diabetic, asthmatic, and got a rash as a teen in Mexico when treated for a UTI. How do you treat her?

[andersenpa]

Brainlock says it quite clearly.

 

There are prerequisites for medical school that PA's are lacking i.e. biology II, chemistry II, organic chem I + II, physics I + II, MCATs.

I don't get it, in another post about MD to PA there were lots of arguments including the importance of the 'journey' and attitude and not the tests. Here in the PA to MD you have the opposite arguments and want to skip over some classes when you don't even meet the minimum course requirements for entrance.

 

"I then say that the information that is new, ie the basic sciences, really isn't as clinically relevent... There is definitely new information that will be presented but imo a practicing PA going to medical school so that they can learn about the metabolism of a specific protein or to memorize a detailed cascade in immunology isn't going to prepare them any better for treating patients than where they were when they started the process."

This is wrong- it is relevant to the in depth knowledge of pathophysiology of the human being. It is this depth of knowledge that makes the difference.

 

I'll give you an analogy which you seem to like, a 20yo female comes to see you with an abscess with surrounding cellulitis and is allergic to PCN, got a rash to a ? med she took in college for UTI, and got C.Diff. from clindamycin for a tooth abscess last year. What antibiotic do you use?

Another is the elderly hispanic female who comes to you after going to the movies with her translating daughter with severe eye pain and loss of some vision. She is a diabetic, asthmatic, and got a rash as a teen in Mexico when treated for a UTI. How do you treat her?

 

I agree with you about the need for basic science.

However I would be surprised if many PAs being trained nowadays didn't have those prereqs. I took every course you just mentioned...and biochem, A and P, etc in my undergrad. With the advent of the masters many (most?) PAs enter with a bachelors in a science field.

 

The difference in MD education is the first 2 yrs and I don't think you can skimp there.

[andersenpa]

Brainlock says it quite clearly.

 

There are prerequisites for medical school that PA's are lacking i.e. biology II, chemistry II, organic chem I + II, physics I + II, MCATs.

I don't get it, in another post about MD to PA there were lots of arguments including the importance of the 'journey' and attitude and not the tests. Here in the PA to MD you have the opposite arguments and want to skip over some classes when you don't even meet the minimum course requirements for entrance.

 

"I then say that the information that is new, ie the basic sciences, really isn't as clinically relevent... There is definitely new information that will be presented but imo a practicing PA going to medical school so that they can learn about the metabolism of a specific protein or to memorize a detailed cascade in immunology isn't going to prepare them any better for treating patients than where they were when they started the process."

This is wrong- it is relevant to the in depth knowledge of pathophysiology of the human being. It is this depth of knowledge that makes the difference.

 

I'll give you an analogy which you seem to like, a 20yo female comes to see you with an abscess with surrounding cellulitis and is allergic to PCN, got a rash to a ? med she took in college for UTI, and got C.Diff. from clindamycin for a tooth abscess last year. What antibiotic do you use?

Another is the elderly hispanic female who comes to you after going to the movies with her translating daughter with severe eye pain and loss of some vision. She is a diabetic, asthmatic, and got a rash as a teen in Mexico when treated for a UTI. How do you treat her?

 

Furthermore the example you gave is a bad one. This is basic clincal medicine that any PA can handle (unless you think these abx "dilemmas" are out of PA scope). The real need is in training future specialists. You can be damn sure that an oncologist or endocrinologist better know about protein synthesis etc down to the molecular level.

[acozadd]

I am a former PA who has completed medical school. I had the same attitude as you when I started medical school. I thought that most of my MD program would be a review. But, I learned very quickly that the didactic portion of Med school goes into much much more depth than PA ever will. You don't see this now, but you will should you go through an MD/DO program. Med school was a humbling experience.

I can only comment on my only experiences I suppose, but as I mentioned I take many of my courses/systems alongside the medical students and I do not see a greater depth/detail in their lectures compared to ours. However, we generally take some of the more complex/vital systems with them so the material in general is slightly more complex. This may vary widely from 1 school to the next so I shouldn't apply my own experiences to all situations.

 

Brainlock says it quite clearly.

 

There are prerequisites for medical school that PA's are lacking i.e. biology II, chemistry II, organic chem I + II, physics I + II, MCATs.

I don't get it, in another post about MD to PA there were lots of arguments including the importance of the 'journey' and attitude and not the tests. Here in the PA to MD you have the opposite arguments and want to skip over some classes when you don't even meet the minimum course requirements for entrance.

 

"I then say that the information that is new, ie the basic sciences, really isn't as clinically relevent... There is definitely new information that will be presented but imo a practicing PA going to medical school so that they can learn about the metabolism of a specific protein or to memorize a detailed cascade in immunology isn't going to prepare them any better for treating patients than where they were when they started the process."

This is wrong- it is relevant to the in depth knowledge of pathophysiology of the human being. It is this depth of knowledge that makes the difference.

 

I'll give you an analogy which you seem to like, a 20yo female comes to see you with an abscess with surrounding cellulitis and is allergic to PCN, got a rash to a ? med she took in college for UTI, and got C.Diff. from clindamycin for a tooth abscess last year. What antibiotic do you use?

Another is the elderly hispanic female who comes to you after going to the movies with her translating daughter with severe eye pain and loss of some vision. She is a diabetic, asthmatic, and got a rash as a teen in Mexico when treated for a UTI. How do you treat her?

Nearly all of those pre-reqs are required for PA schools, except physics (though some PA schools require physics, and some med schools do not require physics). Your points are well taken regarding the basic sciences, but I guess my point here is the "use it or lose it" principle... You learn so much in a graduate medical program that if it is not applicable in your clinical setting/field, it likely isn't going to be something that you can recall. An ortho surgeon I shadowed quite a bit majored in Biochem, completed medical school, and right now cannot name anything relating to biochem (I was studying it at the time in undergrad when I was shadowing and he commented on it). I took many upper division basic sciences in undergrad and the anatomy, phys, pathophys from PA school and while I knew it like the back of my hand at the time, it is definitely rusty now. In a perfect world everyone would remember EVERYTHING they ever learned, but that is not reality. You can bet that I will read up on the specifics of whichever field I enter when I am done with my formal education.

 

There are obvious differences in the education, but I still hold the notion that a practicing PA for several years is closer than 7 years away from functioning as a physician (obviously field dependent) compared to a college student fresh from undergrad who only needs 1 year longer to become a doc... and some doc programs already exist that are 7 years -- though they are generally limited to family practice. The GREATEST difference is the completion of a residency, not in what happens in the classroom.

[ventana]

Brainlock says it quite clearly.

 

There are prerequisites for medical school that PA's are lacking i.e. biology II, chemistry II, organic chem I + II, physics I + II, MCATs.

I don't get it, in another post about MD to PA there were lots of arguments including the importance of the 'journey' and attitude and not the tests. Here in the PA to MD you have the opposite arguments and want to skip over some classes when you don't even meet the minimum course requirements for entrance.

 

I'll give you an analogy which you seem to like, a 20yo female comes to see you with an abscess with surrounding cellulitis and is allergic to PCN, got a rash to a ? med she took in college for UTI, and got C.Diff. from clindamycin for a tooth abscess last year. What antibiotic do you use?

Another is the elderly hispanic female who comes to you after going to the movies with her translating daughter with severe eye pain and loss of some vision. She is a diabetic, asthmatic, and got a rash as a teen in Mexico when treated for a UTI. How do you treat her?

 

 

Took all the courses you mentioned with all other pre-med students at a 4.0 and MCATS taken (never got into med school)

 

the example of the ABX utilized is what I consider simple medicine... you gotta know this stuff straight up if you are going to manage patients....

 

there is a level of comfort that can only be gained with 80+ hour weeks for 3+ years in residency....

 

read my tag line and it says it all......

[Brainlock]

I can only comment on my only experiences I suppose, but as I mentioned I take many of my courses/systems alongside the medical students and I do not see a greater depth/detail in their lectures compared to ours. However, we generally take some of the more complex/vital systems with them so the material in general is slightly more complex. This may vary widely from 1 school to the next so I shouldn't apply my own experiences to all situations.

 

 

Nearly all of those pre-reqs are required for PA schools, except physics (though some PA schools require physics, and some med schools do not require physics). Your points are well taken regarding the basic sciences, but I guess my point here is the "use it or lose it" principle... You learn so much in a graduate medical program that if it is not applicable in your clinical setting/field, it likely isn't going to be something that you can recall. An ortho surgeon I shadowed quite a bit majored in Biochem, completed medical school, and right now cannot name anything relating to biochem (I was studying it at the time in undergrad when I was shadowing and he commented on it). I took many upper division basic sciences in undergrad and the anatomy, phys, pathophys from PA school and while I knew it like the back of my hand at the time, it is definitely rusty now. In a perfect world everyone would remember EVERYTHING they ever learned, but that is not reality. You can bet that I will read up on the specifics of whichever field I enter when I am done with my formal education.

 

There are obvious differences in the education, but I still hold the notion that a practicing PA for several years is closer than 7 years away from functioning as a physician (obviously field dependent) compared to a college student fresh from undergrad who only needs 1 year longer to become a doc... and some doc programs already exist that are 7 years -- though they are generally limited to family practice. The GREATEST difference is the completion of a residency, not in what happens in the classroom.

 

NO WAY is this true. At first I didn't get in to medical school, so I applied to many PA schools. For many of them you have a BIG CHOICE in what chemistry courses you take. Some schools have a lot of flexibility for the biology and chem prerequisites. It didn't matter for me because I took the chem courses required for med school and a grad school biomedical science program.

 

Anyway, look at Hahnemann's program. Lots of flexibility as far as what you take. As for healthcare experience anyone, can get it for what they require. Stanford's program allows a year of high school chemistry. There are many more programs that offer much flexibility especially with the chemistry requirements. Some of the PA requirements for some schools can't even be compared to the pre-med reqs. The only reason why I took organic chem was for medical school and grad school not PA school.

 

All med schools require physics.

[acozadd]

NO WAY is this true. I applied to many PA schools, and for many of them you have a BIG CHOICE in what chemistry courses you take. I went to PA school before going to medical school because I didn't get into a med program until later.

 

Anyway, look at Hahnemann's program. Lots of flexibility as far as what you take. As for healthcare experience anyone, can get it for what they require. Stanford's program allows a year of high school chemistry. There are many more programs that offer much flexibility especially with the chemistry requirements. Some of the PA requirements for some schools can't even be compared to the pre-med reqs. The only reason why I took organic chem was for medical school and grad school not PA school.

 

All med schools require physics.

 

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=526169 Here's a thread over at SDN discussing schools which do not require physics. Do the vast majority require it? Yes, but not all.

 

Pre-med pre-reqs are basically a year of bio, gen chem, o-chem/biochem (some allow 1 semester of each as opposed to a year of each), and physics. Apparently I must have restricted by search a bit too much when looking for PA schools, because all that I researched generally required 1 year gen chem (science majors aka pre-med level), at least 1 semester of o-chem and biochem, 300-level or above anatomy and physiology, 1 year gen bio, and then some random courses. Considering most will major in bio or another science, these courses will be built in to most undergrad degrees regardless of being a requirement or not for PA school.

 

Anyway, it just seems like our experiences of PA school are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. When did you attend PA school?

[Brainlock]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=526169 Here's a thread over at SDN discussing schools which do not require physics. Do the vast majority require it? Yes, but not all.

 

Pre-med pre-reqs are basically a year of bio, gen chem, o-chem/biochem (some allow 1 semester of each as opposed to a year of each), and physics. Apparently I must have restricted by search a bit too much when looking for PA schools, because all that I researched generally required 1 year gen chem (science majors aka pre-med level), at least 1 semester of o-chem and biochem, 300-level or above anatomy and physiology, 1 year gen bio, and then some random courses. Considering most will major in bio or another science, these courses will be built in to most undergrad degrees regardless of being a requirement or not for PA school.

 

Anyway, it just seems like our experiences of PA school are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. When did you attend PA school?

 

 

This is more of what CobraMarty and I are talking about. There are also many other schools that require prereqs that are not close to the premed requirements. I have gone to both PA school and med school, so I am familiar with the prereqs for both programs. In my PA class, there were a lot of other majors such as philosophy, theatre, fine arts, economics. I didn't have that many science majors in my PA class.

 

1) Here are the science prerequisites for Loma Linda's PA program:

• A complete course of Human Anatomy and Physiology with laboratory covering all organ systems.
  
• One year of general chemistry with laboratory or its equivalent (inorganic, organic, and biochemistry).
  
• Microbiology with laboratory
  

2) Program Academic Prerequisites for Stanford's PA program:

All applicants must complete the following courses with a grade of "C" or better. A minimum of 3 semester or 4 quarter units is required for each course.

 

• Human Anatomy with Lab
  
• Human Physiology with Lab
  
• Microbiology with Lab
  
• Introductory Chemistry - One year of high school or one college course.
  
• Intermediate Algebra
  
• English Composition - English 1A or equivalent.
  
• Introduction to Sociology or Introduction to Cultural Anthropology
  
• Introduction to or General Psychology
  

Again, there are a lot of pa programs like these.

[acozadd]

Not consistent with what I have found, but apparently a few exist. I would expect these to continue to disppear as all schools transition to a masters program (I believe the schools you are mentioning currently do not offer a masters, which are in the extreme minority of PA schools today). From the sound of it, a lot has changed from when you attended PA school. Even with the bare minimum requirements set by schools, PA school is extremely competitive based on the number of applicants for a very limited number of spots (generally 25-50ish).

 

The argument is fairly moot though as arguing whether or not someone took organic chemistry is wasted energy. My A's in o-chem did nothing to prepare me for PA school, and if you put a worksheet in front of me I probably couldn't answer the majority of it... just like most of my friends in med school. It's a weed out tool I suppose without much other utility. Same goes for many pre-reqs (though a solid science foundation is definitely necessary-- which is why the vast majority of those going to PA or med school major in bio, biochem, etc.)

[Brainlock]

Not consistent with what I have found, but apparently a few exist. I would expect these to continue to disppear as all schools transition to a masters program (I believe the schools you are mentioning currently do not offer a masters, which are in the extreme minority of PA schools today). From the sound of it, a lot has changed from when you attended PA school. Even with the bare minimum requirements set by schools, PA school is extremely competitive based on the number of applicants for a very limited number of spots (generally 25-50ish).

 

The argument is fairly moot though as arguing whether or not someone took organic chemistry is wasted energy. My A's in o-chem did nothing to prepare me for PA school, and if you put a worksheet in front of me I probably couldn't answer the majority of it... just like most of my friends in med school. It's a weed out tool I suppose without much other utility. Same goes for many pre-reqs (though a solid science foundation is definitely necessary-- which is why the vast majority of those going to PA or med school major in bio, biochem, etc.)

 

Organic chem wasn't a weed out tool for PA school or medical school. Why would it be for PA school when there are many many PA programs that will take you without organic chem such as Baylor, OHSU, Medex (huge flexibility) among many others (and this is current info). Many of the PA programs give great flexibility as to which chemistry courses may be taken. As far as medical school, there were people that got in with a "C" grade, but did well in everything else. However, organic chem really isn't a weed out, because it is not that a difficult class. I majored in chemistry and the well known weed out course was Pchem. I found organic chem to be important for med school, but some other docs may not think so.

 

As far as prep goes, I have found that there were many more science majors in med school than PA school.

 

In your statement, you are saying that it is a moot point whether or not someone took the pre-med courses. But, you contradict yourself when you say that it was a needed foundation.

 

As far as prereqs, I am only referring to courses taken not work experience. It is not that difficult to get work experience, at least for a great number of the programs.

[acozadd]

Organic chem wasn't a weed out tool for PA school or medical school. Why would it be for PA school when there are many many PA programs that will take you without organic chem such as Baylor, OHSU among many others (and this is current info). Many of the PA programs give great flexibility as to which chemistry courses may be taken. As far as medical school, there were people that got in with a "C" grade, but did well in everything else. However, organic chem really isn't a weed out, because it is not that a difficult class. I majored in chemistry and the well known weed out course was Pchem. I found organic chem to be important for med school, but some other docs may not think so.

 

As far as prep goes, I have found that there were many more science majors in med school than PA school.

 

In your statement, you are saying that it is a moot point whether or not someone took the pre-med courses. But, you contradict yourself when you say that it was a needed foundation.

I say a solid science foundation is necessary (and essentially the only useful part of undergrad), though that doesn't necessarily imply that the best way to gain this foundation is the coursework set as pre-reqs for med school.

 

FWIW, most medical schools do not require anatomy and physiology, micro, etc. while the vast majority of PA schools require these. These courses are far more applicable to medicine than physics, organic chem, gen chem, and a good portion of gen bio.

 

I'm not sure where this is going, since you just admitted above the ochem (a class you pointed out as being unique to med school pre-reqs... which isn't the case) may or may not be helpful in med school depending on the individual.

[primadonna22274]

My extensive research into virtually every MD and DO program a few years ago showed that only THREE do not require physics: MUSC, U. S. Carolina, and Baylor. I applied to both SC schools (but not Baylor). No love.

Guess what? 3 years and an admission to the inaugural class of APAP track LECOM, I am finishing my one required semester of Physics. It wasn't all that bad. I actually learned a few things, like how to solve how long it takes for the cat to come back down after you throw it up in the air at what velocity and angle blah blah blah and how to sniff out improbable MVC histories (momentum and inertia...useful concepts.)

I'm sure my MCAT would have been much better if I had taken physics BEFORE that dreaded test, but hey, it doesn't matter anymore.

I'll let you know in 6 mos how much all my biochem, o-chem, genetics (13 years ago...we hadn't even finished mapping the genome yet!) and yes, all my PA school helped/did not help. For now I'm excited to be starting med school after 11 years as a practicing and productive PA.

:)

Lisa

[acozadd]

My extensive research into virtually every MD and DO program a few years ago showed that only THREE do not require physics: MUSC, U. S. Carolina, and Baylor. I applied to both SC schools (but not Baylor). No love.

Guess what? 3 years and an admission to the inaugural class of APAP track LECOM, I am finishing my one required semester of Physics. It wasn't all that bad. I actually learned a few things, like how to solve how long it takes for the cat to come back down after you throw it up in the air at what velocity and angle blah blah blah and how to sniff out improbable MVC histories (momentum and inertia...useful concepts.)

I'm sure my MCAT would have been much better if I had taken physics BEFORE that dreaded test, but hey, it doesn't matter anymore.

I'll let you know in 6 mos how much all my biochem, o-chem, genetics (13 years ago...we hadn't even finished mapping the genome yet!) and yes, all my PA school helped/did not help. For now I'm excited to be starting med school after 11 years as a practicing and productive PA.

:)

Lisa

 

Best of luck! I'd be interested in hearing your experience, could be enlightening.

[cecilia]

Lisa, keep in touch. I would like to know more about the LECOM program. I am waiting for a similar program to appear in the west coast. I would love to go to one. I would have to retake the MCAT, :( since i only got an 18 some 15 years ago?

[browndog]

For now I'm excited to be starting med school after 11 years as a practicing and productive PA.

:)

Lisa

 

Lisa,

 

Congratulations on med school! Please keep us informed about your experiences moving forward. Can I ask what considerations / factors played into your decision to pursue med school at this point in your career? I am way too old (and encumbered with responsibility)....but perhaps I can live vicariously through your experiences / updates.

 

Good luck.

 

Tim

[jeffhud]

This bridge states there is no restriction on residency choices, but I wonder when it comes to actually matching how it will affect these students. Match looks at your rotations, letters of reccomendation, research, and so on and will this be limited in a 3 year program and will bridge programs be pushed into primary care anyways similar to many foreign medical grads. Many FMG's have great step scores and US rotations but still cannot match into many of the highly selective and profitable residencies due to the image of going to a foreign medical school. I realize there are DO residencies that are seperate which may help increase the chances, but only time will tell I figure.

[EMEDPA]

I imagine most of these folks at least initially will do osteopathic residencies.