Attendance in PA school

[Hemegroup]

All our lectures were mandatory. We had a class of 40. I think the fear was an instructor might be the only one in the room.

 

Hahahaha ... *pin drops*. Actually tho, I think the 'fear' is that a program will lose their accreditation due to lazy, cranky students who think they don't need to attend class or adhere to a schedule that's comparable to a career in the real world, and who then risk not passing their classes and fail out of their programs! The program is in charge of program design for multiple reasons, but the main ones are that it's their program, and they want to be able to continue it and continue graudating competent PAs.

 

It's worse when you get stuck on a rotation where you abhor someone (i.e. one of the Docs or staff you work closely with) ... ugh! But you still gotta show up every day, on time.

[Hemegroup]

*deleted - dbl post*

[acozadd]

Hahahaha ... *pin drops*. Actually tho, I think the 'fear' is that a program will lose their accreditation due to lazy, cranky students who think they don't need to attend class or adhere to a schedule that's comparable to a career in the real world, and who then risk not passing their classes and fail out of their programs! The program is in charge of program design for multiple reasons, but the main ones are that it's their program, and they want to be able to continue it and continue graudating competent PAs.

 

It's worse when you get stuck on a rotation where you abhor someone (i.e. one of the Docs or staff you work closely with) ... ugh! But you still gotta show up every day, on time.

 

It seems to have worked fine for med students, who are probably the most comparable student demographic to PA students. I don't view any of the 200+ med students that do not attend class regularly at my program as lazy, cranky, or as if they do not think they should adhere to a schedule that's comparable to a career in the real world... I think the crankiness probably comes with attending class more than anything else (after 8 hours a day you get a little run down) and laziness comes with 11 months of your didactic year down and simply doing what is needed to pass because you are mentally done with school and ready for clinicals.

[Acebecker]

simply doing what is needed to pass because you are mentally done with school and ready for clinicals

 

Don't forget that you're talking to PAs/PA students who have completed that didactic year... We know how gruelling it was. But we took no shortcuts in order to get through it. We looked forward to the clinical year as much as the next student. Studying medicine is hard for everyone. Yet we kept our butts in the seats without complaining because it is what was required of us. The requirement makes sense in the light of our accreditation standards. It's also one of the better ways for us to learn (shocking, I know).

 

I don't view any of the 200+ med students that do not attend class regularly at my program as lazy, cranky, or as if they do not think they should adhere to a schedule that's comparable to a career in the real world...

 

Of course you don't because it gives you an excuse.

[just_me]

I dont have all the details (because I didnt attend the interview lol) I assume its like other online courses where you have proctors set up in your area. With me my proctor was an education officer with the Army Reserve center and sometimes I used a proctor at the local 4 year university. For a class that Im taking now they actually use a service that allows you to test from home BUT you must have a webcam that clearly shows you from the waist up...they also remotely control your computer so that you cannot open other windows during the testing....awesome if you ask me.

 

Ok so not ALL of the things you listed are done on campus.....(I didnt see testing when I first replied) but the hands on clinical things do require travel to campus for certain periods of time. The whole point in the Wisc program is so that you can do your training locally within your own community. Its much like SJVC where they want to put primary care providers in rural/underserved areas but the difference is that they want you in YOUR own area. Its actually a great concept and has been working well based on PANCE scores.

 

I guess Im confused, if it is a distance learning program, how is testing done in person? If you have to be local enough to drive in for tests, why not just have a traditional program?

[acozadd]

I dont have all the details (because I didnt attend the interview lol) I assume its like other online courses where you have proctors set up in your area. With me my proctor was an education officer with the Army Reserve center and sometimes I used a proctor at the local 4 year university. For a class that Im taking now they actually use a service that allows you to test from home BUT you must have a webcam that clearly shows you from the waist up...they also remotely control your computer so that you cannot open other windows during the testing....awesome if you ask me.

 

Ok so not ALL of the things you listed are done on campus.....(I didnt see testing when I first replied) but the hands on clinical things do require travel to campus for certain periods of time. The whole point in the Wisc program is so that you can do your training locally within your own community. Its much like SJVC where they want to put primary care providers in rural/underserved areas but the difference is that they want you in YOUR own area. Its actually a great concept and has been working well based on PANCE scores.

Im sure there are some definite benefits to the program, but it still sounds a little shady to me. People could easily tape material to the wall behind their computer and "stare off into space thinking" while really looking at material that isn't in view of the camera. I'm not sold but then again I do not know enough. For my program we have several SPALs-- simulated patient encounters where a hired actor comes in and they are our patient. We do a complete history and physical on them in a clinic room and provide our diagnosis, then write a SOAP note or do an oral presentation. We do these every few weeks and has been one of the best learning experiences from my program, this wouldn't be possible learning at home on your own for months at a time.

[acozadd]

Don't forget that you're talking to PAs/PA students who have completed that didactic year... We know how gruelling it was. But we took no shortcuts in order to get through it. We looked forward to the clinical year as much as the next student. Studying medicine is hard for everyone. Yet we kept our butts in the seats without complaining because it is what was required of us. The requirement makes sense in the light of our accreditation standards. It's also one of the better ways for us to learn (shocking, I know).

 

 

 

Of course you don't because it gives you an excuse.

I have a month left of didactic so maybe I will see the light like those that have finished this portion of their education... but somehow I find that highly unlikely. I still do not see why you and others view this as a shortcut. What exactly is being cut out? You are so adamant that it is wrong somehow, yet I really haven't heard many valid arguments outside of "it's the way it is done" and "we could lose preceptors..." neither of those really hurt the students education/what they learn while in school (i guess you could argue the preceptor point, but that is a stretch. I am not complaining about having to be in class, but I can see the benefits of NOT going to class all of the time, something that many are purposely ignoring apparently. As mentioned, I would be in class even if it weren't required because it would help me keep my routine, but I don't expect the same from everyone else.

 

To your second comment, how am I making an excuse? If anything, I should have a negative view of these students not attending class while I am there all day, but that isn't the case. All of my friends in med school do not attend regularly, and they all do great. It's the norm from what I've heard at other programs outside of my own, and it's been going on for years. The majority of MDs that lecture to us comment on how they could have never been in class as long as we are... that they never showed up. They seem to be doing just fine for themselves... Those are some pretty harsh words/stereotypes you are throwing around about students that do not attend class regularly that, from my experience, are completely false.

[just_me]

eh to each his own

 

good luck with the taping the material baack there, making sure you have everything that could possibly be asked on a single sheet of paper because you cant flip it and looking at it in such a way that your eyes dont dart giving away the fact that youre looking for osmething or reading....not as easy as you would think

 

Anywho Im not even sure that they use that system...I just put it out as an example of ways that exams are proctored. obviously based on a few posts on this board, students have been able to cheat right in the classroom with a professor close by.....nothing is unbeatable.

 

From mu understanding, all of those simulated patient encouters you get those as well as real ones while working with a preceptor. Unlike traditional programs you work with a preceptor from didatic on (this is my understanding) they are there to work with you on all of those skills IN the work place as opposed to a lab.... so its not like a person would be at home practicing these things on a sibling or something.

 

I think before you knock it, perhaps you should actually look into the program and ask/clarify things...it sure beats making assumptions

 

Im sure there are some definite benefits to the program, but it still sounds a little shady to me. People could easily tape material to the wall behind their computer and "stare off into space thinking" while really looking at material that isn't in view of the camera. I'm not sold but then again I do not know enough. For my program we have several SPALs-- simulated patient encounters where a hired actor comes in and they are our patient. We do a complete history and physical on them in a clinic room and provide our diagnosis, then write a SOAP note or do an oral presentation. We do these every few weeks and has been one of the best learning experiences from my program, this wouldn't be possible learning at home on your own for months at a time.

[acozadd]

eh to each his own

 

good luck with the taping the material baack there, making sure you have everything that could possibly be asked on a single sheet of paper because you cant flip it and looking at it in such a way that your eyes dont dart giving away the fact that youre looking for osmething or reading....not as easy as you would think

 

Anywho Im not even sure that they use that system...I just put it out as an example of ways that exams are proctored. obviously based on a few posts on this board, students have been able to cheat right in the classroom with a professor close by.....nothing is unbeatable.

 

From mu understanding, all of those simulated patient encouters you get those as well as real ones while working with a preceptor. Unlike traditional programs you work with a preceptor from didatic on (this is my understanding) they are there to work with you on all of those skills IN the work place as opposed to a lab.... so its not like a person would be at home practicing these things on a sibling or something.

 

I think before you knock it, perhaps you should actually look into the program and ask/clarify things...it sure beats making assumptions

 

I admitted that there could be some benefits to it and that I didn't know enough about the program to really make a definitive opinion, I don't think I made assumptions but did bring up potentional downfalls. Mainly I'd be concerned about cheating on tests, which is a valid concern.. I feel that all testing should be done in front of a live proctor. Does that eliminate cheating? no... but definitely decreases the amount of cheating imo. I also dont understand the preceptor concept you mentioned. Does each student have a preceptor in their hometown that they work with?

 

Anyway, this is getting off topic from the original thread.

[Acebecker]

how am I making an excuse?

 

I grant you are not making an excuse as you do attend your classes. I should have phrased it more along the lines of, "It fits into your argument for not requiring attendance." My apologies.

 

As far as how medical students turn out - one thing that we haven't figured in is that the majority of their actual learning of medicine occurs during their clinical years and residency. We can't forget about this and we can't really compare our training to theirs because it's an apples vs. oranges argument. Yes, we learn the exact same things, but the PA model is a compressive model in which we are to functionally learn 80% of what MDs do in 50% of the time that they learn it (actually less if you include their residency as education). Thus each minute spent understanding the functional application of medicine is completely necessary. Learning only from handouts/online powerpoints/recordings will not convey an operational knowledge the way interaction with a lecturer will.

 

We are expected (and I have been told as much from my preceptors) to function at the level of a 4th year medical student/resident by the time we reach our clinical year or part-way through it. This is a LOT of operational knowledge to obtain very quickly. Will the average student understand the process by which diagnosis occurs if they only listen to a lecture or read the powerpoint slides as well as a classmate who interacted with the lecturer or received emphasis on the fine points during class? I believe they will not. The student who only read/listens to a lecture will have solid book knowledge but will enter their clinical years short on application knowledge and we, as PA students, don't have that time to waste. Medical students do.

 

There is more I could say, but I'll stop there for the moment.

 

Andrew

[rev ronin]

All of my friends in med school do not attend regularly, and they all do great. It's the norm from what I've heard at other programs outside of my own, and it's been going on for years. The majority of MDs that lecture to us comment on how they could have never been in class as long as we are... that they never showed up. They seem to be doing just fine for themselves...

 

This. If classroom attendance is important, why don't MD schools require it? Or, phrased another way, what about the differences between PA and MD education make it essential that PA students be butts-in-seats, but not essential that MD students do the same?

[delco714]

Not enough seats for all the butts? *smirk*

[acozadd]

I grant you are not making an excuse as you do attend your classes. I should have phrased it more along the lines of, "It fits into your argument for not requiring attendance." My apologies.

 

As far as how medical students turn out - one thing that we haven't figured in is that the majority of their actual learning of medicine occurs during their clinical years and residency. We can't forget about this and we can't really compare our training to theirs because it's an apples vs. oranges argument. Yes, we learn the exact same things, but the PA model is a compressive model in which we are to functionally learn 80% of what MDs do in 50% of the time that they learn it (actually less if you include their residency as education). Thus each minute spent understanding the functional application of medicine is completely necessary. Learning only from handouts/online powerpoints/recordings will not convey an operational knowledge the way interaction with a lecturer will.

 

We are expected (and I have been told as much from my preceptors) to function at the level of a 4th year medical student/resident by the time we reach our clinical year or part-way through it. This is a LOT of operational knowledge to obtain very quickly. Will the average student understand the process by which diagnosis occurs if they only listen to a lecture or read the powerpoint slides as well as a classmate who interacted with the lecturer or received emphasis on the fine points during class? I believe they will not. The student who only read/listens to a lecture will have solid book knowledge but will enter their clinical years short on application knowledge and we, as PA students, don't have that time to waste. Medical students do.

 

There is more I could say, but I'll stop there for the moment.

 

Andrew

 

You are making the assumption that every student is spending a significant portion of time talking to the lecturers outside of class to get these "finer details" and practical applications. That simply isn't true/isn't practical-- we have a few minutes between classes and there is no guarentee the lecturer will even be available to answer questions. Any questions asked during lecture will be heard on the audio file, and any practical questions could just as easily be emailed to the professor as they could be asked. I think you are overplaying how much interaction truly goes on between a class and a lecturer-- and many of their answers will revolve around "it depends on the patient" and will be better learned during rotations.

 

The average student who reads the handout/powerpoint and listens to the audio will receive 99.9% of the information that those sitting in class receive. It's not like there are periods where the lecturer turns off the audio and says "mmk, this is what you REALLY need to know... lets not share this with those not here..." If a clinician emphasizes the finer points, it will be picked up or bolded on the slides. If you want more information, that question can be asked in the form of email just as easily as it could by raising your hand.

 

To rev ron's comment-- I feel the argument of "we are better students because we attend class!" is about the equivalent of an NP saying "Ya? well i treat the WHOLE patient! you just treat the symptoms!"

[Acebecker]

I am not making the assumptions you say that I am. I have sat through the classes (as you have) and we know that the interactions between students and lecturers (even if you're not the one asking the question) are remarkably valuable. To deny this as truth is blind ignorance for the sake of trying to make a point in discussion. Anyone who only has powerpoints to read misses this. Yes, someone who has the audio might hear this interaction, but they will be unable to ask their own questions and will likely miss the context of the discussion. You are refusing to accept reasonable discussion and valid points. Why?

[acozadd]

I am not making the assumptions you say that I am. I have sat through the classes (as you have) and we know that the interactions between students and lecturers (even if you're not the one asking the question) are remarkably valuable. To deny this as truth is blind ignorance for the sake of trying to make a point in discussion. Anyone who only has powerpoints to read misses this. Yes, someone who has the audio might hear this interaction, but they will be unable to ask their own questions and will likely miss the context of the discussion. You are refusing to accept reasonable discussion and valid points. Why?

 

So if a person listens to the audio of everything said in class, follows the powerpoint, and emails the professor any questions they may have regarding practical application, what are they missing out on that the other students are gaining? Be it a percent of material, whatever you want. If it is above a fraction of a single percent, you are lying to yourself and grossly overstating the importance.

[rev ronin]

Here's my proposed answer to my own question: the med school students take the USMLE step 1 before they're really allowed to touch patients, so even a faculty interested in sweeping an inadequate practitioner on through wouldn't succeed in placing an incompetent clerk in a position to harm patients. In PA school, nothing national and standardized separates didactic and clinical, hence wanting to make sure folks are progressing through appropriately.

 

At least, that's the best I've been able to come up with.

[Hemegroup]

... and emails the professor any questions they may have regarding practical application ...

 

Because so many professors just get right back to ya ;)

[acozadd]

Here's my proposed answer to my own question: the med school students take the USMLE step 1 before they're really allowed to touch patients, so even a faculty interested in sweeping an inadequate practitioner on through wouldn't succeed in placing an incompetent clerk in a position to harm patients. In PA school, nothing national and standardized separates didactic and clinical, hence wanting to make sure folks are progressing through appropriately.

 

At least, that's the best I've been able to come up with.

 

 

Probably best done through testing, not tallying attendance...

 

To Hemegroup-- that is certainly a risk. Most clinical question that arise though will likely vary from patient to patient and institution to institution (i tend to ask a lot of questions in class and this is usually part of the answer) so even being in class and asking questions doesn't always shed some definitive light on your questions.

[Acebecker]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

[MC99]

the one I plan on going to does. But in reality how are you going to succeed if you dont go to class. Even in med school.

[screwbedu]

Mine is strict about attendance, but if you are paying all that money for the degree, why wouldn't you go to every class?

[jen0508]

Mine is strict about attendance, but if you are paying all that money for the degree, why wouldn't you go to every class?

 

 

amen... one time we calculated how much tuition we spent per day during our summer semester and it was $120 dollars..... i tried to think about that every time i drifted off into lala-land or facebook-land during lectures...

[Sajedr]

mispost deleted

[jsfelder0417]

My school only allows 16hrs of excused time per semester

[PAmommy]

Mandatory attendance at our school too