Attendance in PA school

[crystaltide]

I just graduated from undergrad, so I may be part of the generation thing that Emed was talking about. Still, I'm taking an online Medical Physiology course from UNE right now, and I've found it incredibly helpful that I can pause and rewind every lecture. Everything is done with a PowerPoint, so any illustrations I might need are already given. I've found that my notes are much more complete than in any of my classes from undergrad. Of course, in undergrad if I missed something I would copy it from a classmate, which allowed for some discussion of the material (not as possible/necessary in my online course).

 

When I get to PA school, however, I'll be going to every class. I feel that PA school is not like undergrad, and that being present, if only for interaction with professor/classmates, is vital to succeeding. Just my two cents....

[FSU2010]

Solution? Attend every class. Bring a tape recorder and play back later to pause/rewind if needed.

[acozadd]

Solution? Attend every class. Bring a tape recorder and play back later to pause/rewind if needed.

 

Not sure if you have tried that but if you have 8 hours of lecture, relistening to each lecture would take your whole night and leave no time for actual studying. It would also be impossible to know each point where your notes might be incomplete due to inattention/note taking...

 

Still just looking for a valid argument as to why listening to lectures is significantly worse than actually attending class. I've pointed out several positives, the best negative so far is you might miss a drawing on the board, and that it just goes against the "norm."

[andersenpa]

Still just looking for a valid argument as to why listening to lectures is significantly worse than actually attending class. I've pointed out several positives, the best negative so far is you might miss a drawing on the board, and that it just goes against the "norm."

 

There is an interactive component to classroom attendance, which is directed by the lecturer, student, or both. I know that most modern PA students will lament powerpoints, and there are a lecturer's crutch.

 

By learning from a transcript of a class, you miss that interaction. How do you ask the speaker to pause to clarify a point you may be missing? A contradiction you perceive?

 

A poster above also mentioned the discussion between classmates (hopefully that still happens) about topics that were covered.

 

Our class routinely had a handful of students at the end of the lecture who would approach the speaker to further expand on subjects that were raised, answer questions etc.

 

And for the small number of speakers who use any sort of Socratic method, well, you're TSOL.

[acozadd]

There is an interactive component to classroom attendance, which is directed by the lecturer, student, or both. I know that most modern PA students will lament powerpoints, and there are a lecturer's crutch.

 

By learning from a transcript of a class, you miss that interaction. How do you ask the speaker to pause to clarify a point you may be missing? A contradiction you perceive?

 

A poster above also mentioned the discussion between classmates (hopefully that still happens) about topics that were covered.

 

Our class routinely had a handful of students at the end of the lecture who would approach the speaker to further expand on subjects that were raised, answer questions etc.

 

And for the small number of speakers who use any sort of Socratic method, well, you're TSOL.

 

Valid points. If you have a question, every powerpoint has the lecturers information on it so you could email for clarification of a contradiction or question, or just look in other sources for verification (looking at other sources outside of just the lecturer's material is beneficial). Students studying together still occurs... the med students at my program commonly reserve rooms and just sit in there all day and study together, so you dont miss out on classmate interaction.

 

My program does have case studies, etc. which are definitely valuable to sit through/participate in, but these are well marked on the calendar so everyone knows when they are. Would missing them/listening to them significantly impact my learning? I dont really think so.

 

In general, I'm not entirely sure where not attending class in a medical program gets its bad reputation from outside of just being "different." When i started PA school I generally thought the same thing, but after going through almost all of my didactic year I can see where not having mandatory attendance could be beneficial.

[rev ronin]

I know that most modern PA students will lament powerpoints, and there are a lecturer's crutch.

 

I lament BAD powerpoints. Ones which actually 1) contain the needed information such that the lecture just augments it, 2) provide concrete, relevant illustrations, and 3) are logically organized are worth a LOT. Deck length is not important--too long or too short, if it doesn't cover the material well, it's not helpful. What I miss from corporate life is the 'backup slides' which went into painstaking detail about whatever the manager to whom you were presenting might possibly ask. It would not be uncommon to have a 6-12 slide presentation with 50 slides of backup. That's a very different model (obtaining a decision without wasting time) from adult education, but there's something to be said for it.

[acozadd]

I lament BAD powerpoints. Ones which actually 1) contain the needed information such that the lecture just augments it, 2) provide concrete, relevant illustrations, and 3) are logically organized are worth a LOT. Deck length is not important--too long or too short, if it doesn't cover the material well, it's not helpful. What I miss from corporate life is the 'backup slides' which went into painstaking detail about whatever the manager to whom you were presenting might possibly ask. It would not be uncommon to have a 6-12 slide presentation with 50 slides of backup. That's a very different model (obtaining a decision without wasting time) from adult education, but there's something to be said for it.

 

My strategy has been to make the powerpoint into a handout in Word (just a few clicks of a button in ppt... though the formatting is a bit annoying). You can copy and paste any relevent pictures from the slides, take you own notes, highlight all the really relevent info, and simply delete all the stuff that is a waste of time that I know I won't study.

 

Just because you are given a powerpoint doesn't mean you cannot easily manipulate it into exactly what you want it to be for studying with a few clicks of a button.

[EMEDPA]

FWIW when I lecture pa/np/md/emt-p students I write A LOT on the board. listening to one of my lectures even with the handouts probably gives you 70% of the material at most.

I don't use powerpoints at all. a few overheads on a projector and writing on the board. and I answer most questions with diagrams...on the board..or case scenarios..on the board...skip my lecture and you are getting a C at best....

[chiaroscuro27]

Hemegroup said it best!

 

Sometimes you can't please people, no matter what you do.

[acozadd]

FWIW when I lecture pa/np/md/emt-p students I write A LOT on the board. listening to one of my lectures even with the handouts probably gives you 70% of the material at most.

I don't use powerpoints at all. a few overheads on a projector and writing on the board. and I answer most questions with diagrams...on the board..or case scenarios..on the board...skip my lecture and you are getting a C at best....

 

I can say that in my 10 months of PA school only a handful of lectures have used only handouts.. and usually they are thorough and everything needed is mentioned in the lecture... (except an allergist who tested us on types of bees, something not even mentioned in lecture or in the handout... thats another story.) It's generally more annoying than anything because you are frantically trying to fill in all the gaps and take good notes while missing half of what the lecturer is saying.Worst case scenario, if this DID happen once or twice in your didactice year, you could easily ask someone who attended to fill in the blanks for you. In large lecture halls (such as those used when I take courses with the med students), if you are sittin towards the back you probably wouldn't be able to see the board as it is.

[FSU2010]

I can say that in my 10 months of PA school only a handful of lectures have used only handouts.. and usually they are thorough and everything needed is mentioned in the lecture... (except an allergist who tested us on types of bees, something not even mentioned in lecture or in the handout... thats another story.) It's generally more annoying than anything because you are frantically trying to fill in all the gaps and take good notes while missing half of what the lecturer is saying.Worst case scenario, if this DID happen once or twice in your didactice year, you could easily ask someone who attended to fill in the blanks for you. In large lecture halls (such as those used when I take courses with the med students), if you are sittin towards the back you probably wouldn't be able to see the board as it is.

 

Playing Devil's Advocate...if you and your entire class didn't see the need to attend class, who is there to fill in the blanks for you? It's obviously beneficial for at least one person to attend, so why not everyone?

 

And my earlier point wasn't mean to intend that you should replay every single lecture. Just that if you were confused about a lecture or wanted a "refresher" later in the year, it was readily available.

 

As for my stance on the subject, I don't feel that attendance should be mandatory but I still think there are obvious advantages to attending class. You can ask questions in real-time, engaging in a fluid discussion on the present topic. Some professors use demonstrations to enhance their lecture, which you would miss if you only listened to audio. If you're paying $20k+ a year for PA school, why wouldn't you attend at least 90% of lectures?

[acozadd]

Playing Devil's Advocate...if you and your entire class didn't see the need to attend class, who is there to fill in the blanks for you? It's obviously beneficial for at least one person to attend, so why not everyone?

 

And my earlier point wasn't mean to intend that you should replay every single lecture. Just that if you were confused about a lecture or wanted a "refresher" later in the year, it was readily available.

 

As for my stance on the subject, I don't feel that attendance should be mandatory but I still think there are obvious advantages to attending class. You can ask questions in real-time, engaging in a fluid discussion on the present topic. Some professors use demonstrations to enhance their lecture, which you would miss if you only listened to audio. If you're paying $20k+ a year for PA school, why wouldn't you attend at least 90% of lectures?

 

I've just been playing devil's advocate this whole time because I don't necessarily understand where the bad rap of not attending lecture is coming from. I don't see where the cost of school really plays in to this.. if you can get just as much out of school by not attending then I'd so go for it. As I mentioned, I have yet to really have a lecture where I couldn't listen to the audio, read the ppt, and get everything out of it (and I am nearly done with my didactic year). Listening to the audio at 1.5 or 2x speed means you could get through the matieral faster, have better notes, and in turn have more time for actual studying. Better to go through the lectures when you have every intent to learn the material than be forced to sit through lectures and listen half-heartedly because its the 8th lecture that day and the game you are playing on your computer is suddenly far more interesting...

 

Like I said, even if attendance weren't required I'd still show up to just about every one (outside of special circumstances) just because that is what Im used to, but I can see where not attending could be just fine/even beneficial for some. If you live 30 minutes away from campus with your family, you would save an hour in driving each day, spend more time with your family, etc. I have several in my class that drive at least this distance each day...

[CJKitty]

I'm honestly surprised at programs having mandatory attendance. With or without this I would be attending every lecture possible (I'm one of those who can't learn as well simply listening to audio), but PA school generally is a post-graduate, adult learning program... right? Do we really need our hands held at this point?

 

Regarding the cost of each lecture- keep in mind that we only have ourselves to answer to when it comes time to take the PANCE. Just because you think it's crazy to miss a lecture doesn't mean the other person is necessarily wasting their money... it just means they are fortunate enough to have a choice in this world and for them, perhaps that's the best choice to match their learning style. If it's a poor choice, then eventually it will come back to bite them. Worry less about policing others and worry more about making yourself the best possible PA.

[Acebecker]

I cannot stand students who miss lecture after lecture and then rely on their classmates to "fill in the gaps." I'm with CJKitty - we are adult learners here. We should be held responsible for knowing the material whether we attended class or not. And I grant you that sometimes things come up and we do have to miss class. But my classmates who would routinely miss class in order to sit at home and study drove me up the wall. I would have LOVED to sit home studying our objectives and covering the harder topics more in depth on days when we didn't have a particularly rigorous lecture schedule. But I know that I would have had to ask for help from my classmates who bit the bullet and did go to the lectures. Essentially, it would have been lazy of me to skip lectures while my classmates attended them.

 

Furthermore, we as a profession (and all health professions) are desperately short of preceptors for our students (especially PAs because our preceptors are typically volunteers). The amount of effort MDs/DOs/PAs/NPs see us put in during classroom based instruction will INEVITABLY carry on to the outside world. If half of a class shows up for an OB/GYN lecture because the lecturer is boring, guess which training site we just lost? He is not going to take any of our students because we are seen as lazy or uninterested. On the other hand, if we show up and at least make an attempt (even if he is boring), then he will say, "Sure... I'll take your students and train them." At this point, a training site is a training site whether or not you like the preceptor. Beggars can't be choosers...

 

On another note, say you want to get a clinical site with one of the experts in the field. Is he going to pick someone he met during class who showed interest and asked thought provoking questions or is he going to choose a student who didn't bother to show up to his lecture because he had posted the lecture on-line? (This is a rhetorical question... you know the answer.)

 

And finally, each PA program has a reputation to uphold. Believe it or not, our preceptors and lecturers pay attention to the types of students coming out of the programs. So you are doing your program a disservice if you prefer not to show up because you aren't required to.

 

We are professional students... We need to act like it.

 

Andrew

 

PS - yes, I realize this is just one man's opinion. But if you pay attention to the bigger picture, you'll realize there is truth here.

[acozadd]

I cannot stand students who miss lecture after lecture and then rely on their classmates to "fill in the gaps." I'm with CJKitty - we are adult learners here. We should be held responsible for knowing the material whether we attended class or not. And I grant you that sometimes things come up and we do have to miss class. But my classmates who would routinely miss class in order to sit at home and study drove me up the wall. I would have LOVED to sit home studying our objectives and covering the harder topics more in depth on days when we didn't have a particularly rigorous lecture schedule. But I know that I would have had to ask for help from my classmates who bit the bullet and did go to the lectures. Essentially, it would have been lazy of me to skip lectures while my classmates attended them.

 

Furthermore, we as a profession (and all health professions) are desperately short of preceptors for our students (especially PAs because our preceptors are typically volunteers). The amount of effort MDs/DOs/PAs/NPs see us put in during classroom based instruction will INEVITABLY carry on to the outside world. If half of a class shows up for an OB/GYN lecture because the lecturer is boring, guess which training site we just lost? He is not going to take any of our students because we are seen as lazy or uninterested. On the other hand, if we show up and at least make an attempt (even if he is boring), then he will say, "Sure... I'll take your students and train them." At this point, a training site is a training site whether or not you like the preceptor. Beggars can't be choosers...

 

On another note, say you want to get a clinical site with one of the experts in the field. Is he going to pick someone he met during class who showed interest and asked thought provoking questions or is he going to choose a student who didn't bother to show up to his lecture because he had posted the lecture on-line? (This is a rhetorical question... you know the answer.)

 

And finally, each PA program has a reputation to uphold. Believe it or not, our preceptors and lecturers pay attention to the types of students coming out of the programs. So you are doing your program a disservice if you prefer not to show up because you aren't required to.

 

We are professional students... We need to act like it.

 

Andrew

 

PS - yes, I realize this is just one man's opinion. But if you pay attention to the bigger picture, you'll realize there is truth here.

 

To your first paragraph, that really doesn't apply to PA school from my experience. In undergrad I had several friends would would skip and ALWAYS rely on my for the info... it drove me insane. If you have lectures recorded and notes posted online, you really don't run into this in PA school. Maybe my program is unique, but I've almost completed the didactic year and not a single person that ever had to miss due to a legit excuse (appointment, etc.) has ever had to ask others what they missed... it's all right there for you.

 

I agree on showing up to establish lecturers/preceptors. Some lecturers will not speak for the medical students but will for the PA students from what I've heard at my program, so showing up can be important. Lecturers do need to realize that they were once in med school and likely didn't attend class either... and that just because there aren't many people present doesn't mean every word they say wont be heard by their intended audience.

 

You are right again on the rotation part-- but only a few of our lecturers are actually clinical preceptors, and our rotations are established by our clinical coordinators and we have relatively little day over the specifics (ie wanting a certain preceptor, etc.) and Im sure the opposite is true as well (ie. a preceptor having say over which students they receive). We are able to establish our own rotations if we want to establish a new preceptor contact in a new location however.

 

"We are professional students, we should act like it"-- are you implying that the majority of med students (those who do not attend lecture) AREN'T professional students? That's a pretty bold statement. I know several med students who are ranked in towards the top of the class and never attend... Is the person who shows up but plays games on their computer and doesn't listen to a word a more professional student than the one who stays at home and listens to the lectures/studies all day?

[Acebecker]

To your first paragraph, that really doesn't apply to PA school from my experience...

 

 

"We are professional students, we should act like it"-- are you implying that the majority of med students (those who do not attend lecture) AREN'T professional students? That's a pretty bold statement.

 

In reply to the first statement that the situation I described doesn't apply to PA school because the lectures are recorded - the point is that at our school we didn't have the lectures recorded. The power point slides were available, but there were "teaching points" that were not included and the interaction between the lecturer and the students were not available. Thus, my argument fully applies that students are lazy if they rely on others to get the "pearls" that the live lecture offers.

 

You say you agree with my other points, and then proceed to illustrate ways in which you believe they do not apply. I don't understand your mode of discussion.

 

Finally, yes... I think we need to behave more professionally than our MD/DO student counterparts. And yes, I believe showing up and PAYING ATTENTION to every lecture is more professional than not showing up at all. In the end, PAs need to make an effort regarding our perception among the public and the medical community. This begins in our classrooms. The way the MDs/DOs/NPs perceive us when they lecture will be carried to their peers at hospitals/medical groups. This will impact their patients in the future. Thus the public perception can be influenced.

 

Regardless of your stated position on mandatory attendance, you are arguing awfully hard against expecting PA students to attend their lectures.

[acozadd]

In reply to the first statement that the situation I described doesn't apply to PA school because the lectures are recorded - the point is that at our school we didn't have the lectures recorded. The power point slides were available, but there were "teaching points" that were not included and the interaction between the lecturer and the students were not available. Thus, my argument fully applies that students are lazy if they rely on others to get the "pearls" that the live lecture offers.

 

You say you agree with my other points, and then proceed to illustrate ways in which you believe they do not apply. I don't understand your mode of discussion.

 

Finally, yes... I think we need to behave more professionally than our MD/DO student counterparts. And yes, I believe showing up and PAYING ATTENTION to every lecture is more professional than not showing up at all. In the end, PAs need to make an effort regarding our perception among the public and the medical community. This begins in our classrooms. The way the MDs/DOs/NPs perceive us when they lecture will be carried to their peers at hospitals/medical groups. This will impact their patients in the future. Thus the public perception can be influenced.

 

Regardless of your stated position on mandatory attendance, you are arguing awfully hard against expecting PA students to attend their lectures.

 

I acknowledged that your point was valid, but not to the extent that you implied it to be. For keeping lecturers, yes, showing up to class is important. But it likely has little if any impact on your clinical rotations. Might it benefit a student here and there? Perhaps, but that is more of an exception-- hence why I agree, but put a disclaimer that it isn't very likely...

 

The only real reason I've stuck around and brought up some talking points is because most of the arguments for mandatory attendance have a "holier than thou" connotation, which is actually pretty common with many topics on this forum. If I can bring new points up that others may not have considered and expand their horizons a bit, then it's a success in my book. Let's not be too close minded here and think everything is my way or it simply isn't right.

[Acebecker]

You don't seem to have a concept of reputations. Until you acknowledge that the medical community is actually quite small (and thus word travels fast) I don't think you'll get the point of how lecturers affect clinical rotation sites. I can readily admit that what I have said may not hold true for every single school out there, but I know for a vast majority of schools, reputation in their medical community means a LOT. Perhaps your school is one of the former.

[acozadd]

You don't seem to have a concept of reputations. Until you acknowledge that the medical community is actually quite small (and thus word travels fast) I don't think you'll get the point of how lecturers affect clinical rotation sites. I can readily admit that what I have said may not hold true for every single school out there, but I know for a vast majority of schools, reputation in their medical community means a LOT. Perhaps your school is one of the former.

 

I'll agree that reputation is very important, but i feel that reputation goes way beyond how many students attend a lecture... I'm not sure about your program, but none of my clinical preceptors for next year were lecturers at my program. The ones that do precept usually only do so for the medical students, and apparently they don't seem to have a problem with the medical students not showing up (probably because they themselves were med students once and realize they did the same thing...). I have friends at mulitple med schools (some highly ranked/well known) and they all say that attendance is quite low.

 

Now if they didn't have access to audio them yes, they are only hurting themselves because you cannot just look at a powerpoint/handout and understand all of the content. I'm pretty sure that recording lectures is pretty standard at most med schools however.

[Brian Wallace]

All our lectures were mandatory. We had a class of 40. I think the fear was an instructor might be the only one in the room.

[crystaltide]

Solution? Attend every class. Bring a tape recorder and play back later to pause/rewind if needed.

 

That's actually exactly what I did for my more difficult science courses in undergrad. I would star any part in my notes/PowerPoint slide where I missed something and write down the time in the recording so that I could easily look it up again. Microsoft OneNote was really helpful for this.

 

Also, acozadd, your view of how a PA program could be run without attending class already actually exists. The University of Wisconsin-Madison has a program where the didactic courses are almost completely online. So in the end I guess it depends on what kind of student you are. If a person doesn't think they'll gain anything from going to class, why not seek out one of the distance learning options? I myself am looking for a program that is very interactive, so I would prefer there to be mandatory attendance. But not everyone is the same.

[acozadd]

That's actually exactly what I did for my more difficult science courses in undergrad. I would star any part in my notes/PowerPoint slide where I missed something and write down the time in the recording so that I could easily look it up again. Microsoft OneNote was really helpful for this.

 

Also, acozadd, your view of how a PA program could be run without attending class already actually exists. The University of Wisconsin-Madison has a program where the didactic courses are almost completely online. So in the end I guess it depends on what kind of student you are. If a person doesn't think they'll gain anything from going to class, why not seek out one of the distance learning options? I myself am looking for a program that is very interactive, so I would prefer there to be mandatory attendance. But not everyone is the same.

 

I do not agree with solely distance learning programs. There are several things that just need to be done in person: testing, cadaver labs, physical diagnosis, simulated patient encounters, labs-- surgical skills, other skills, etc. Staying home and listening to some lectures from time to time is different in my opinion than a distance learning/online program...

[hello8001]

Maybe my school is not a very good school, this is my experience. We have video recordings of all the lectures. 60-70% of our lecturers either make things more confusing for us, or can't answer questions, or read from the slides, and sometimes they can't even pronounce some of the medical terms like cyclooxygenase. Yes, the 30-40% of the lecturers are very good and I would love to have them teach every single class but unfortunately they only teach a limited number of lectures. We have between 3-4 teachers for every course, and only 1-2 out of the 3-4 are actually good and know how to explain things or know what they're talking about. I did an experiment where I skipped classes for a little while and my grades were in the 90s, while they were in the 80s when I went to class. Since attendance is mandatory at my school, I made a little comment regarding the jump in my grades when I stopped coming to class, and the school made such a big deal about it saying that it was not about the grades, but it's about some kind of commitment and that I signed the student handbook agreeing to attending classes. Okay, fine, I have no problem attending classes, but I just have trouble being in class where the instructors either can't explain, can't pronounce the words, read directly from the slides, or can't answer questions. Would it be aggravating to sit 4-6 hours a day through that? As I mentioned, there are a few of them that I would not miss their lectures for any reason because I actually learn good things and really enjoy the lectures. And after the first few lectures, you would know whose lectures are good and whose are not.

[just_me]

I was granted an interview with that program....all those things that you speak of are done on campus (you spend some time on campus doing lots of hands on things) and also you work wth a preceptor from some time during the didatic year (which lasts two years) into the clinical phase. They serve as a somewhat of a "homebase" or adjunct professor....I had an office local to me offer to act as my preceptor through the program.

 

Wish I would have attended the interview....had I gotten in I think that would have been very interesting being involved in that program

 

I do not agree with solely distance learning programs. There are several things that just need to be done in person: testing, cadaver labs, physical diagnosis, simulated patient encounters, labs-- surgical skills, other skills, etc. Staying home and listening to some lectures from time to time is different in my opinion than a distance learning/online program...

[acozadd]

I was granted an interview with that program....all those things that you speak of are done on campus (you spend some time on campus doing lots of hands on things) and also you work wth a preceptor from some time during the didatic year (which lasts two years) into the clinical phase. They serve as a somewhat of a "homebase" or adjunct professor....I had an office local to me offer to act as my preceptor through the program.

 

Wish I would have attended the interview....had I gotten in I think that would have been very interesting being involved in that program

 

I guess Im confused, if it is a distance learning program, how is testing done in person? If you have to be local enough to drive in for tests, why not just have a traditional program?