new program not what I expected and I want out

[just_me]

I dont think speaking up is a "battle".....now if you continue to pressure, nag or whatever you call it then you are "picking a battle"

 

I agree that a "voice" can bring undesired attention but iits also the tone of that voice that matters. Are you going around through the class speaking of how "unfair" this or that is, are you trying to rally the troops by yourside, are being rude, damanding and obnoxious? All of these things can (and do cause additional problems) but never once in my many years have I brought undue tension on myself by simply mentioning to admin that I saw something dishonest. If they do something about it or not isnt my problem and does nothing for how I see myself......as long as I say something I feel that Im a better person for that and could never bring myself to advise someone to do anything different.

 

When a person posts here about witholding information they are e-attacked about how dishonesty has no place in the profession and so on and so forth. I wonder how many other of those same people who speak of upholding honesty within the programs would also advise against speaking up when they see dishonest actions? Why is it not ok for someone to be dishonest during the process of applying BUT perefctly ok for a person to either a. turn a blind eye to those cheating in the program and therefore ignoring the academic honesty code that you agreed to and/or b. cheat while in the program because anyone who sees them cheat should be afraid to speak up about it due to retaliation.

[Hemegroup]

I dont think speaking up is a "battle".....now if you continue to pressure, nag or whatever you call it then you are "picking a battle"

 

I agree that a "voice" can bring undesired attention but iits also the tone of that voice that matters. Are you going around through the class speaking of how "unfair" this or that is, are you trying to rally the troops by yourside, are being rude, damanding and obnoxious? All of these things can (and do cause additional problems) but never once in my many years have I brought undue tension on myself by simply mentioning to admin that I saw something dishonest. If they do something about it or not isnt my problem and does nothing for how I see myself......as long as I say something I feel that Im a better person for that and could never bring myself to advise someone to do anything different.

 

When a person posts here about witholding information they are e-attacked about how dishonesty has no place in the profession and so on and so forth. I wonder how many other of those same people who speak of upholding honesty within the programs would also advise against speaking up when they see dishonest actions? Why is it not ok for someone to be dishonest during the process of applying BUT perefctly ok for a person to either a. turn a blind eye to those cheating in the program and therefore ignoring the academic honesty code that you agreed to and/or b. cheat while in the program because anyone who sees them cheat should be afraid to speak up about it due to retaliation.

 

Maybe in an idyllic situation, then a 'battle' might only occur if a person presents themselves or a situation in a manner like those you've suggested. But remember that the "admin" you're speaking of may not always be of the same, shall we say, caliber of standard.

 

If it's 'all good', then of course the thing to do would be to alert someone. But depending on the situation, the people involved, and the way a scenario has played out, I certainly understand Ugh's attitude of hopelessness as well as their advice of caution.

 

Your points are completely logical and valid, just_me, don't think for a minute I'm inferring they're not. But look at what happened with my disclosure of academic dishonesty ... I acted in a completely professional manner and it bit me on the ***. That's but an example of how something right and honorable can have unsavory effect.

[just_me]

Your points are completely logical and valid, just_me, don't think for a minute I'm inferring they're not. But look at what happened with my disclosure of academic dishonesty ... I acted in a completely professional manner and it bit me on the ***. That's but an example of how something right and honorable can have unsavory effect.

 

But what Im saying is that you chose to do so and while it may have had negative consequences...changes were made and youre a better person for sayin something.....not being a coward over a "what if"

 

You didnt come here and basically demand that a person keep their mouth shut because in your mind every situation will play out in the same manner that happened to you.

 

My problem with Ughs attitude....should I say "problems" are:

 

1. based on their situation in SCHOOL they trashed a whole profession, pretty much every program and pretty much every program director out

2. they did not give advice of caution--advice of caution is not saying "you will get kicked out of school", "your program director does not care about you" so on and so forth simply based off their personal experience...you dont do that. Saying "hey I would do it anonymously because xyz happened to me when I did that" is one thing, they way Ugh did it.....not even ok.

3. they came here and gave 1/8th of a story and gets upset because people do not agree or see it their way

4. after basically telling somemone to keep their mouth shut and not take a risk, Ugh puts themself up as a martyr for PAdom everywhere by refering to themselves as one of those PAs who takes risks because they arent afraid to question and stand up for what they beleive......hypocrite

 

I guess I see it this way....that feeling of hopelessness is felt when you feel that just because you said something and changes werent done right then and there, then mgmmt or admin doesnt care. There have been times when I brought things to light and changes werent made.....didnt bother me because at least I said something and thats all I can do. There have been times I said things and changes came well after I had moved on...oh well. As Ugh said...things were taken care of just not how they wanted it to be handled, when they wanted it to be handled and they werent notified how it would be handled---IMHO the PD must have cared and listened or it wouldnt have been handled at all...but for some people I guess thats not good enough.

 

In the end...the only true way to make sure that nothing changes and nothing gets done is to keep your mouth shut

[ugh]

Sigh...

 

This:

 

 

And this:

 

 

It also seems that anyone with this much education (Ph.D) knows that 1-2 sub-par instructors or administrators does NOT justify trashing a entire school or program or profession... and that education and/or "maturity" would dictate treading lightly and tactfully in this regard.

 

Also this:

 

 

Just doesn't compute in my pea sized brain and leads to a few questions.

 

How does one spend enough time in academia to complete a Ph.D... but still not realize that education is a business...??

 

 

 

How does one spend the considerable amount of time it takes to get a Ph.D in Counseling Psychology and remain "gullible" and naive about the world and its people upon completion of this arduous and emotionally draining path...??

 

Seems like the curriculum, studies, intern-ships and extern-ships required of a Counseling Psychology Ph.D candidate would have blunted if not eradicated the naiveté and gullibility.

 

The two (2) Clinicians that I work with daily who hold these credentials in Counseling Psychology seem to be on the ball, seem to get it and not surprised by much of the human depravity we deal with daily. Maybe they/we are simply jaded...

 

Something about all this doesn't pass the smell test....!!!!

 

AnyWho....

 

Please continue to ignore everything I've posted in this thread EXCEPT.... "folks with what seems to be the perspective above will likely NOT remain employed for any length of time by any employer they are not related to"...

 

Good luck in whatever you do and hope you find a career field filled with folks that meet your standards.

 

Contrarian

 

P.s... It also seems that someone with a Ph.D in Counseling Psychology would recognize that what is written in my "sig-line" is a observational STATEMENT and advice on useful equipment for mitigation... not a complaint...:wink:

 

You believed me?!!! Couldn't you tell I was being sarcastic? OMG!!!

[ugh]

But what Im saying is that you chose to do so and while it may have had negative consequences...changes were made and youre a better person for sayin something.....not being a coward over a "what if"

 

You didnt come here and basically demand that a person keep their mouth shut because in your mind every situation will play out in the same manner that happened to you.

 

My problem with Ughs attitude....should I say "problems" are:

 

1. based on their situation in SCHOOL they trashed a whole profession, pretty much every program and pretty much every program director out

2. they did not give advice of caution--advice of caution is not saying "you will get kicked out of school", "your program director does not care about you" so on and so forth simply based off their personal experience...you dont do that. Saying "hey I would do it anonymously because xyz happened to me when I did that" is one thing, they way Ugh did it.....not even ok.

3. they came here and gave 1/8th of a story and gets upset because people do not agree or see it their way

4. after basically telling somemone to keep their mouth shut and not take a risk, Ugh puts themself up as a martyr for PAdom everywhere by refering to themselves as one of those PAs who takes risks because they arent afraid to question and stand up for what they beleive......hypocrite

 

I guess I see it this way....that feeling of hopelessness is felt when you feel that just because you said something and changes werent done right then and there, then mgmmt or admin doesnt care. There have been times when I brought things to light and changes werent made.....didnt bother me because at least I said something and thats all I can do. There have been times I said things and changes came well after I had moved on...oh well. As Ugh said...things were taken care of just not how they wanted it to be handled, when they wanted it to be handled and they werent notified how it would be handled---IMHO the PD must have cared and listened or it wouldnt have been handled at all...but for some people I guess thats not good enough.

 

In the end...the only true way to make sure that nothing changes and nothing gets done is to keep your mouth shut

 

I just must not be explaining myself well and must be coming across the wrong way. I already apologized for what you listed in the numbers you listed

 

1. It was wrong for me to say that..I've already mentioned that.

2. My comments you're referring to in #2 are emotionally charged and maybe not said in a more direct/observational perspective BECAUSE the events that took place at my school, as I tried to explain before were egregious.

3. I simply can't give you the whole story, and as I've said in another post that I understood how this can cause confusion for people reading about it.

4. I did go to the Dean, we all did, and as I already stated we got nothing but a bunch of excuses. I also went to the Dean on my own because I realized this situation is probably worse than what the Dean may realize is going on (i.e. not ignoring it, but simply unaware of how bad it was). A while after this situation was resolved (i.e. professor terminated, etc) I spoke to an employee at the school. This person asked me how I would handle this situation and I told them. They agreed with me and apologized for not handling it appropriately. They finally took some responsbility. This person said they made a change in their policy how to handle situations and also told me I took a big risk by going to the Dean and that things could've easily gone the other way (i.e. I would've been thrown out of school). Keep in mind this is an employee of the school telling me this. I also know, for a fact, that HR told the professors they were not allowed to talk to students about this situation or even reach out. My classmates were crying and traumatized. What I was upset about the school not doing, without giving too much information, was informing us that the professor was banned from campus. Don't you think they should've told us? None of us knew what was going on and we literally sat in the library scared that this person would come back and go postal. This is not a matter of a program not handling a situation the way "I wanted" but a program that was looking more to cover its butt rather than care for its students. So, when I saw how bad things had to get before the school took action made me think that the original OP (or person posting on this thread) made me just think that this person is going to get in trouble. Because the school is new, maybe it needs to keep those students who are cheating for financial reasons. We don't always know what's going on that's why it's better in that person's situation, I believe, to not take a risk unless they feel they can do it safely anonymously. Anonymity isn't always anonymous.

 

It does sound like I'm contradicting myself at times because sometimes it IS good/necessary to speak up, as I did with those two patients. what was I supposed to do...let the person die from respiratory distress? I sought the help of another doctor who was in the room and he intervened. I just saw a bad reaction to the medication she was given and tried to go get the pt's doctor--he was unavailable. How in the world is this an ego thing on my part? I was helping the patient. If I didn't alert someone the consequences could've been devastating. And, with the other preceptor...I can honestly say I have NEVER in my life run across such a bad doctor. this is not someone who just makes a few mistakes---we ALL make mistakes, including me, and I am going to make more mistakes too. There's a difference between someone who makes a mistake and someone who is SO BAD at what they do they shouldn't be practicing. This doesn't mean I think I'm better than everyone else or know more than everyone else. It's just interesting that people don't think that a program can be bad or that a doctor can be bad.

The blame, as my school did so well, goes straight to the student. Why is it so hard for people to believe that clinicians (all levels) can be insecure and have egos? I had mostly wonderful preceptors who were secure enough in themselves who wanted nothing more than to help me learn. If I asked one a question (because I didn't know the answer) and they didnt' know the answer they just "I don't know" and left it at that. They didn't feel so insecure that they had to punish me for something. I was asked questions too, that I didn't know the answer to.

 

Honestly, what those students are doing is not just unethical, it's immoral. Even though my original response to this OP came off as pretty harsh and as if I wanted to cover my own ***, it's really because I was just so flabberghasted by what I experienced. Maybe that person's school is different and would handle things better. I don't know. But, given what they said about the professors being purposefuly intimidating makes me think that it would not be a fair situation. I agree with Hemegroup that you need to pick your battles wisely or at least to maneuver them wisely. I'm interested, just_me, to see if you actual would go to the dean in a situation like what the OP said and how you would feel if you got kicked out of school for doing what is right, or punished somehow. Sometimes it gets a little tiring and getting punished is no longer worth it, unless what you are doing is going to save a patient from being harmed.

[cinntsp]

I dont think speaking up is a "battle".....now if you continue to pressure, nag or whatever you call it then you are "picking a battle"

 

If they do something about it or not isnt my problem and does nothing for how I see myself......as long as I say something I feel that Im a better person for that and could never bring myself to advise someone to do anything different.

 

Educational and professional politics don't always play out with "doing what is right" being numero uno. It's important to decide whether the risk of being martyred is worth one's belief about a particular situation. Often times it may not be. Heme's academic dishonesty story says as much.

[just_me]

So?

 

If its a situationw here you fel you may be retaliated against then do it anonymously....dont just turn a blind eye.....its pretty simple. What battle is there to fight if no one knows who is involved in it?

 

Regardless if you went to the director yourself, slipped a note under the door, sent an email from a generic account, had a friend call and leave a voicemail on a machine so on an so forth you did the right thing and said something and THAT is the point. THAT is what sperates the moral from immoral, risk takers from cowards.

 

You dont have to be front and center to lead a battle and you definitely do not have to make yourself known when blowing the whistle. This is oe thing Ill stand by....not really sure theres anything anyone can do to change my mind on it.

 

Im not stupid I know that there can be retaliation BUT I also feel like I wouldnt let it stop me especially if I hd ways of reporting WITHOUT identifying myself. If nothing is done about it....so be it...at least I did my part

 

Educational and professional politics don't always play out with "doing what is right" being numero uno. It's important to decide whether the risk of being martyred is worth one's belief about a particular situation. Often times it may not be. Heme's academic dishonesty story says as much.

[just_me]

No you explained yourself.....but you dont slap someone in the face .....say sorry and expect them to be ok with it do you?

 

So while I understand your emotinal stability was shaken due to something...it doesnt make me automatically ok......what you said bugged me.....and well first impressions tend to stick with me.

 

I have gone to professors three times in my life and a dean twice. Most of those times I didnt hear of anything happening to the student BUT policies were changed in the classroom. Now I will say of all those times only ONCE did I actually stand in front and say something...and that was because I was part of a group. Other that that I slipped a note under their door because I didnt want the student to find out that it was me

 

I have had retaliation in the workplace. Sure I was upset and felt it wasnt fair but Im also an adult and handled it as such. Sorry my experiences have been better than yours....guess thats why I have no problem sticking to my guns. I dont personally beleive that its about picking battles wisely but more about "maneuver them wisely" (see I actually agree with something you said). There are loopholes and ways around most things however allowing oneself to feel hopeless can blind you to your options as well as getting emotionally charged.

I just must not be explaining myself well and must be coming across the wrong way. I already apologized for what you listed in the numbers you listed

 

1. It was wrong for me to say that..I've already mentioned that.

2. My comments you're referring to in #2 are emotionally charged and maybe not said in a more direct/observational perspective BECAUSE the events that took place at my school, as I tried to explain before were egregious.

3. I simply can't give you the whole story, and as I've said in another post that I understood how this can cause confusion for people reading about it.

4. I did go to the Dean, we all did, and as I already stated we got nothing but a bunch of excuses. I also went to the Dean on my own because I realized this situation is probably worse than what the Dean may realize is going on (i.e. not ignoring it, but simply unaware of how bad it was). A while after this situation was resolved (i.e. professor terminated, etc) I spoke to an employee at the school. This person asked me how I would handle this situation and I told them. They agreed with me and apologized for not handling it appropriately. They finally took some responsbility. This person said they made a change in their policy how to handle situations and also told me I took a big risk by going to the Dean and that things could've easily gone the other way (i.e. I would've been thrown out of school). Keep in mind this is an employee of the school telling me this. I also know, for a fact, that HR told the professors they were not allowed to talk to students about this situation or even reach out. My classmates were crying and traumatized. What I was upset about the school not doing, without giving too much information, was informing us that the professor was banned from campus. Don't you think they should've told us? None of us knew what was going on and we literally sat in the library scared that this person would come back and go postal. This is not a matter of a program not handling a situation the way "I wanted" but a program that was looking more to cover its butt rather than care for its students. So, when I saw how bad things had to get before the school took action made me think that the original OP (or person posting on this thread) made me just think that this person is going to get in trouble. Because the school is new, maybe it needs to keep those students who are cheating for financial reasons. We don't always know what's going on that's why it's better in that person's situation, I believe, to not take a risk unless they feel they can do it safely anonymously. Anonymity isn't always anonymous.

 

It does sound like I'm contradicting myself at times because sometimes it IS good/necessary to speak up, as I did with those two patients. what was I supposed to do...let the person die from respiratory distress? I sought the help of another doctor who was in the room and he intervened. I just saw a bad reaction to the medication she was given and tried to go get the pt's doctor--he was unavailable. How in the world is this an ego thing on my part? I was helping the patient. If I didn't alert someone the consequences could've been devastating. And, with the other preceptor...I can honestly say I have NEVER in my life run across such a bad doctor. this is not someone who just makes a few mistakes---we ALL make mistakes, including me, and I am going to make more mistakes too. There's a difference between someone who makes a mistake and someone who is SO BAD at what they do they shouldn't be practicing. This doesn't mean I think I'm better than everyone else or know more than everyone else. It's just interesting that people don't think that a program can be bad or that a doctor can be bad.

The blame, as my school did so well, goes straight to the student. Why is it so hard for people to believe that clinicians (all levels) can be insecure and have egos? I had mostly wonderful preceptors who were secure enough in themselves who wanted nothing more than to help me learn. If I asked one a question (because I didn't know the answer) and they didnt' know the answer they just "I don't know" and left it at that. They didn't feel so insecure that they had to punish me for something. I was asked questions too, that I didn't know the answer to.

 

Honestly, what those students are doing is not just unethical, it's immoral. Even though my original response to this OP came off as pretty harsh and as if I wanted to cover my own ***, it's really because I was just so flabberghasted by what I experienced. Maybe that person's school is different and would handle things better. I don't know. But, given what they said about the professors being purposefuly intimidating makes me think that it would not be a fair situation. I agree with Hemegroup that you need to pick your battles wisely or at least to maneuver them wisely. I'm interested, just_me, to see if you actual would go to the dean in a situation like what the OP said and how you would feel if you got kicked out of school for doing what is right, or punished somehow. Sometimes it gets a little tiring and getting punished is no longer worth it, unless what you are doing is going to save a patient from being harmed.

[ugh]

No you explained yourself.....but you dont slap someone in the face .....say sorry and expect them to be ok with it do you?

 

So while I understand your emotinal stability was shaken due to something...it doesnt make me automatically ok......what you said bugged me.....and well first impressions tend to stick with me.

 

I have gone to professors three times in my life and a dean twice. Most of those times I didnt hear of anything happening to the student BUT policies were changed in the classroom. Now I will say of all those times only ONCE did I actually stand in front and say something...and that was because I was part of a group. Other that that I slipped a note under their door because I didnt want the student to find out that it was me

 

I have had retaliation in the workplace. Sure I was upset and felt it wasnt fair but Im also an adult and handled it as such. Sorry my experiences have been better than yours....guess thats why I have no problem sticking to my guns. I dont personally beleive that its about picking battles wisely but more about "maneuver them wisely" (see I actually agree with something you said). There are loopholes and ways around most things however allowing oneself to feel hopeless can blind you to your options as well as getting emotionally charged.

 

Fair enough.

[Hemegroup]

So?

 

If its a situationw here you fel you may be retaliated against then do it anonymously....dont just turn a blind eye.....its pretty simple. What battle is there to fight if no one knows who is involved in it?

 

Good lord, what do you think I did, go in with a hat with foghorns and fireworks? Actually (and this is probably going to make you laugh), to be completely honest ... I told him it was me. Well??? He came up to my desk during the second test and said, "how is it?" I acted innocent ... "fine, why?" but inside was thinking, "oh sh*t". So I sent him an email the next day, basically saying, 'fine, now you know it's me'. His reply was, "actually, I didn't. But now I do. It doesn't matter, the Dean and I are next door neighbors and very close friends ... I would have found out who it was."

 

Would he have? Who knows. Did I want to kick myself in the teeth, yes (have you stopped laughing yet?) But the fact remains that he gave me a C and no one cared. Sure, I did the right thing, but what if that C had kept me out of my pre-req classes? Which it very well could have, had my other Bio series classes not made up for it.

 

Either way, it doesn't matter. Systems are what they are. People talk. Disclosures FLY around the PA program offices, I guarantee you ... staff and faculty meet to determine if there are any 'bad eggs' that can get in the way of their prime directive. Do you know how difficult it can be to find professors, preceptors, etc? If your program is making x amount of money getting by with Dr. Senility teaching, do you think it's their imperative to get them out of that spot? What if there isn't anyone else to FILL that spot? You have to remember ... not every situation and system are the same. And what Ugh has said about 'whistle-blowers' and what can happen is true ... 'anonymous' or not. You just never know ... although I like that slip under the door idea ;)

[ugh]

Ugh - if you do quit the medical field (and I hope you do), PLEASE do not go into counseling as you have just given some of the worse advice EVER offered in the history of the internet.

 

Anyone notice that both of these (allegedly) poor programs are in the Northeast? I visited MCPHS Worcester a few years ago and was impressed. Well, except for the location (Mass...and even worse...Worcester) and the price tag (WOW!!)

 

So, based on one visit by you to a campus you were impressed as opposed to someone who completed 2 years of education with an establishment, and I'm not saying it's the school(s) you are referring to. I mean in general. One visit does not equate to 2 years of experience with an establishment. What in the world can you learn from a visit that is more informative than what people who actually attend have to say about it. My advice is realistic and not sugar-coated. I've seen the Academic Dishonesty Policy abused by professors and the school. It's as if they have the policy and they're not sure how they should utilize it. It's more like they have it just to have a policy.

[just_me]

Heme what are you talking about withthe forghorns and such lol that comment was simply a general response to a comment wutthechris said......I was speaking in general in regards to fear of retaliation.

 

Honestly I dont think about that stuff...retaliation and everything. Maybe I should but I dont.

 

So I guess on this topic I may just have to agree to disagree with the stances that some of you are taking.......dont get me wrong I understand what you guys are saying.....I just dont agree that theres no other options besides keeping your mouth shut. I mean if I slip a note under a door...who knows I did it unless someone sees me or I say I did it? Well they can dust for fingerprints but...... lol

 

Good lord, what do you think I did, go in with a hat with foghorns and fireworks? Actually (and this is probably going to make you laugh), to be completely honest ... I told him it was me. Well??? He came up to my desk during the second test and said, "how is it?" I acted innocent ... "fine, why?" but inside was thinking, "oh sh*t". So I sent him an email the next day, basically saying, 'fine, now you know it's me'. His reply was, "actually, I didn't. But now I do. It doesn't matter, the Dean and I are next door neighbors and very close friends ... I would have found out who it was."

 

Would he have? Who knows. Did I want to kick myself in the teeth, yes (have you stopped laughing yet?) But the fact remains that he gave me a C and no one cared. Sure, I did the right thing, but what if that C had kept me out of my pre-req classes? Which it very well could have, had my other Bio series classes not made up for it.

 

Either way, it doesn't matter. Systems are what they are. People talk. Disclosures FLY around the PA program offices, I guarantee you ... staff and faculty meet to determine if there are any 'bad eggs' that can get in the way of their prime directive. Do you know how difficult it can be to find professors, preceptors, etc? If your program is making x amount of money getting by with Dr. Senility teaching, do you think it's their imperative to get them out of that spot? What if there isn't anyone else to FILL that spot? You have to remember ... not every situation and system are the same. And what Ugh has said about 'whistle-blowers' and what can happen is true ... 'anonymous' or not. You just never know ... although I like that slip under the door idea ;)

[mediman]

Boy I didn’t mean to start all this. I just wanted some advice about a bad situation that I am in. Like I said before I am not trying to bash my program but I am trying to get some opinions. I feel like I am trapped in a situation that I didn’t sign up for. The program turned out to be very different than I hoped for and expected. So does that mean that I either have to suck it up or give up on my dream? I guess I’m hoping there is somewhere in between. For fear of stating up a big huge controversy (like I did) I don’t want to go into detail about why its so bad but can someone please tell me if I leave this program does that mean the end for my potential career as a PA? Has anyone ever left one program because they didnt like it and then got in somewhere else?

I appreciate all the intrest in this, but I dont want to cause fighting.

[Firemedic13]

I worked with a man at a hospital who witnessed purposeful criminal behavior that harmed patients. He called the anonymous tip line that the hospital has to report this kind of behavior. The first thing they said to him was that the hospital could find out who he was and there could be ramifications for him, including termination and asked him if he wanted to continue reporting the doctor. He decided to report the incidents anyway. Guess what happened to the doctor? Nothing. There was a resident at a hospital who reported the abuse of residents (violation of the 80 hr work-week, not just by a few hours either) to a committee. Guess what happened? The resident was thrown out of his residency. There are endless stories like this. I'm not telling this person to be unethical or be a coward, but to be careful about what you decide to expose and how and when. Most PA programs are small so the school is probably aware of the issues he's talking about but they are not being addressed for some reason. Better for him to just stay out of this. You're a law student, right? You of all people should know that this is what happens MOST of the time, and this idealic "be good and nothing will happen to you" is just not the case. It's unethical that the hospital allowed this man to practice medicine, and it's unethical that this resident was thrown out of his residency because the hospital was not obeying a mandated 80 hr work week. No one should ever let a patient's life/care be jeopardized. It's the people who see this happen that are frustrated because they sometimes feel helpless about situations and WANT to help.

 

Looks like you're early on in your law school degreee. I think you will see what I am talking about when you get closer to graduating and are practicing. Maybe you'll be one of those lawyers who tells the hospital to fire such and such an employee for telling the truth. How are you going to feel when that person gets fired because they were trying to help a patient?

 

Hahahahahaha! Seriously, I laughed so hard I almost peed myself.

 

Way to indicate that your cowardice is, in fact the way to go.

 

Whether or not they got punished for it, it was the ethical thing to do.

 

Furthermore, if that happened, then the resident/employee/PA/etc. has a right to sue, will most likely win, and will end up rich and in another program somewhere.

 

I also liked how you indicated that I am naive and inexperienced, and will someday be the guy advising firing for the whistleblower. Another hearty LOL on my part. First off that isn't me, since I am more likely to be suing on behalf of the little guy. But if for some reason I find myself in house counsel someday I still wouldn't advise that because it is stupid. Why would I advise my client to do something that will almost certainly get them sued? Sure, it is more work for me, but I would be on salary, so that is also counterproductive for me. Not to mention wildly unethical.

 

There is this thing called "Honor." People used to value it, even die for it. Apparently it is uncommon lately. Consider trying it, though. It could be beneficial.

 

To the OP: I wish I could tell you whether you could get into another program or not. I don't know. And I can't really give you advice on your situation. I just don't know enough to give you good advice. What I can say for sure is, though, is to ignore this ugh person. Not impressed at all.

[ugh]

Boy I didn’t mean to start all this. I just wanted some advice about a bad situation that I am in. Like I said before I am not trying to bash my program but I am trying to get some opinions. I feel like I am trapped in a situation that I didn’t sign up for. The program turned out to be very different than I hoped for and expected. So does that mean that I either have to suck it up or give up on my dream? I guess I’m hoping there is somewhere in between. For fear of stating up a big huge controversy (like I did) I don’t want to go into detail about why its so bad but can someone please tell me if I leave this program does that mean the end for my potential career as a PA? Has anyone ever left one program because they didnt like it and then got in somewhere else?

I appreciate all the intrest in this, but I dont want to cause fighting.

 

Dear Mediman,

 

I am sorry you are so conflicted. I don't think you caused fighting, but actually brought light to some very interesting viewpoints, and it's interesting how different the viewpoints can be when people don't know all the facts. To answer your question I don't know of anyone who has left a program and gotten in to another program. The people who left our program I think just decided this profession wasn't for them. I think you would have a hard time getting into another program if you leave one. Keep in mind: If your program goes on probation you are not allowed to sit for the PANCE. This is a fact, not an opinion (check the ARC-PA website). Is this program on probation at the moment?

[just_me]

You didnt cause anything....as you can see the responses have been towards someone else...not you.

 

Wish I knew someone that went from one program to another but I dont. Honestly I can only say from my viewpoint I would tough it out and try to finish. I mean the added debt of restarting another program, the application fees, interviewing costs, having to explain the switch PLUS the chance that I may end up in that exact same situation again with another program--all this would encourage me to just finish.

 

Wish you luck in figuring things out

 

Boy I didn’t mean to start all this. I just wanted some advice about a bad situation that I am in. Like I said before I am not trying to bash my program but I am trying to get some opinions. I feel like I am trapped in a situation that I didn’t sign up for. The program turned out to be very different than I hoped for and expected. So does that mean that I either have to suck it up or give up on my dream? I guess I’m hoping there is somewhere in between. For fear of stating up a big huge controversy (like I did) I don’t want to go into detail about why its so bad but can someone please tell me if I leave this program does that mean the end for my potential career as a PA? Has anyone ever left one program because they didnt like it and then got in somewhere else?

I appreciate all the intrest in this, but I dont want to cause fighting.

[coloradopa]

Dear Mediman,

snip

Keep in mind: If your program goes on probation you are not allowed to sit for the PANCE. This is a fact, not an opinion (check the ARC-PA website). Is this program on probation at the moment?

 

Would you care to reference the ARC-PA website for your "fact". ARC-PA does not determine eligibility for the PANCE, NCCPA does. The eligibility is to graduate from a PA program:

"To be eligible for PANCE, you must graduate from a program accredited by the Accreditation Review Commission on Education for the Physician Assistant (ARC-PA) as a Physician Assistant Program or a Surgeon Assistant Program. PA program graduates will be deemed to have graduated from an accredited program if their PA educational program was accredited at the time of their matriculation."

 

Have people left a program and gotten into another one yes, but its very rare. There are plenty of qualified candidates out there. An applicant would have to be pretty special to get a second change.

[ugh]

Would you care to reference the ARC-PA website for your "fact". ARC-PA does not determine eligibility for the PANCE, NCCPA does. The eligibility is to graduate from a PA program:

"To be eligible for PANCE, you must graduate from a program accredited by the Accreditation Review Commission on Education for the Physician Assistant (ARC-PA) as a Physician Assistant Program or a Surgeon Assistant Program. PA program graduates will be deemed to have graduated from an accredited program if their PA educational program was accredited at the time of their matriculation."

 

Have people left a program and gotten into another one yes, but its very rare. There are plenty of qualified candidates out there. An applicant would have to be pretty special to get a second change.

 

Ok, the NCCPA does. Whatever. The point and FACT is you can't sit for the PANCE. Period. So I referenced the wrong one. Big deal. My God, you're going to go ego over something that stupid. Would you care to remain stupid?

[ugh]

Hahahahahaha! Seriously, I laughed so hard I almost peed myself.

 

Way to indicate that your cowardice is, in fact the way to go.

 

Whether or not they got punished for it, it was the ethical thing to do.

 

Furthermore, if that happened, then the resident/employee/PA/etc. has a right to sue, will most likely win, and will end up rich and in another program somewhere.

 

I also liked how you indicated that I am naive and inexperienced, and will someday be the guy advising firing for the whistleblower. Another hearty LOL on my part. First off that isn't me, since I am more likely to be suing on behalf of the little guy. But if for some reason I find myself in house counsel someday I still wouldn't advise that because it is stupid. Why would I advise my client to do something that will almost certainly get them sued? Sure, it is more work for me, but I would be on salary, so that is also counterproductive for me. Not to mention wildly unethical.

 

There is this thing called "Honor." People used to value it, even die for it. Apparently it is uncommon lately. Consider trying it, though. It could be beneficial.

 

To the OP: I wish I could tell you whether you could get into another program or not. I don't know. And I can't really give you advice on your situation. I just don't know enough to give you good advice. What I can say for sure is, though, is to ignore this ugh person. Not impressed at all.

 

Can't wait until the firm you end up working for instructs you to do something dishonest or "sneaky." Let's see if you have tell on them and stand up for what you "believe" in.

[coloradopa]

Ok, the NCCPA does. Whatever. The point and FACT is you can't sit for the PANCE. Period. So I referenced the wrong one. Big deal. My God, you're going to go ego over something that stupid. Would you care to remain stupid?

You referenced a "fact" and advised Mediman to go "look it up" when it was obvious that you had no idea what you are talking about. You compound that by stating the "fact" is that he can't sit for the PANCE when again if you had bothered to read my link, its obvious that if you enter a PA program while its accredited you can sit for the PANCE.

[ugh]

You referenced a "fact" and advised Mediman to go "look it up" when it was obvious that you had no idea what you are talking about. You compound that by stating the "fact" is that he can't sit for the PANCE when again if you had bothered to read my link, its obvious that if you enter a PA program while its accredited you can sit for the PANCE.

 

My thoughts exactly!

[just_me]

From my understanding, even if a program goes on probation it is still accredited until that accredidation is actually stripped from them

 

They are given a certain amount of time to meet standards and have the probation status removed

 

So until they are actually stripped of accredidation people can still for the PANCE and once accredidation has been stripped the last matriculating class is the last class that can sit for the PANCE

[themanpete]

The University of Bridgeport has received Provisional Accreditation by the Accreditation Review Commission on Education for the Physician Assistant (ARC-PA). This status was granted after an exhaustive review of University sponsorship, Institute processes, faculty and administrative credentials also didactic and clinical curriculum components. The first cohort of students will begin classes in January 2011.

 

Accreditation is required in order for graduates to sit for the Physician Assistant National Certification Examination (PANCE). This credential is required for state licensure. Those students completing studies in a provisionally accredited program are eligible to sit for the examination.

 

Provisional Accreditation is an accreditation status granted by ARC-PA for a limited, defined period of time to a new PA program that has demonstrated its preparedness to initiate a program in accordance with the Accreditation Standards for Physician Assistant Education.

 

The University of Bridgeport PA Program is not on probation, in fact they are taking applications and setting up interviews for the second class currently.

[merryt24]

It would be very helpful to know which program this is. You could save others from making the same mistake!

[Phooey]

I think most of us can agree that in a difficult scenario, doing the right thing rarely comes without a cost. I know a PA-S who witnessed unethical and unprofessional behavior and tried his best to point it out without "pointing it out." A preceptor was using intoxicating substances in the office and forced the student to work late at the office while he had his buddies over to partake. This PA-S once had a problem with certain substances and wanted nothing to do with it. Not only was he dropped from the rotation by the preceptor, he was docked by the program and forced to attend counseling and random drug testing by the program and state BOM mental health over-seers. He got f-ed because he stood up for what he felt was the right thing to do. I am not sure if he'd do the same over again.

 

The point is, no good deed goes unpunished. But this is one field where doing the right thing is the only thing to do.

 

Dropping your crappy PA program will not ruin your PA career but it put a gigantic speed bump in your path, count on it.