FfIghter23 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Update: http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2015/09/02/belitsky-apologizes-for-botched-pa-program/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MediMike Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Oh yeah, PAs can totally be taught online, but us MDs? *scoff* I love how they mention the # of students necessary to "break even" financially, followed by their desire to upsize soon after. What's the motivation here...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I just found this thread and started at the beginning. I have to say I am AGAINST anyone becoming a PA by online training. The camaraderie with your peers speaks volumes about your clinical abilities and since our profession is dedicated to patient care which involves one on one interaction - I firmly believe the interaction should start on day one. To be quite frank - some folks in my class 25 years ago were complete flakes and it showed in the classroom and in doing physical exams on each other with a proctor and in their ability to group-solve and interact with the general public. Some folks just aren't cut out to be PAs or MDs for that matter. Those people who stood out as poor communicators or selfish loners with superiority complexes did NOT make it through my program in Texas. I wouldn't want to waste the space in any class for someone who can't cut it. As I posted elsewhere - Quantity does NOT equal Quality. We need good PAs not a lot of mediocre or Meh PAs. Unless our legal standing changes, we are going to flood with the market with newbie grads who will either have no docs or jobs or will diminish the earning capacity and put us old folks out of work by taking lower salaries in hopes of paying off their staggering student loans. More is not better. We need quality and that only comes from hands-on in my opinion. I would vote against this type of educational model. PERIOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FfIghter23 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 It will get passed in a few years. no doubt. There is no stopping the train rumbling down the track when it involves Yale and big money. They basically apologized for trying to sneak it behind everyones back and said they will go through the proper channels to get it approved in a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camha92 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I highly doubt competitive applicants will choose to receive their education in a new online program, especially at the high tuition cost of Yale. So even though Yale say the online program will have the same requirements as the residential program, that's just unrealistic. My biggest fear is that other programs will follow Yale's footsteps in hopes of gaining profits. That will be very bad for the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 As much as I may not be in favor of the online program, there are definitely enough applicants who would consider it. Just look around the forum at the number of qualified applicants that are applying only to local schools because of some situation that prohibits them from moving. They definitely could consider an online program as an alternative option. The program will have the same requirements (3.0 sGPA, 1,000 hours HCE, prereqs, etc), but that does not mean the admitted applicant will have equivalent statistics to the typical admitted applicant for the residential program. That remains to be seen. What also remains to be seen is how they will effectively monitor the clinical curriculum. I think many people believe that the didactic portion (aside from the neccessary hands on components) could be delivered relatively effectively online. There are many programs with online components and other programs (UND, UW) that have much of their didactic curriculum online. Clinically though, it will be hard to determine how well students are doing on rotations. Preceptor evals can vary from the preceptor who gives everyone a 100%, to the preceptor who is a hard grader, and everything in between. How will we know that a student in New Mexico who gets a good grade from the preceptor is equivalent to the student at Yale New Haven? They could be better, they could be worse, or they could be the same. That is something that is very hard to measure. It is likely that the program will point to PANCE scores to show that the program is successful when it comes to fruition, and I have no doubt that students will be able to pass the PANCE, as there are great study resources and review materials that if studied appropriately would allow most students to pass the exam, probably with very little clinical exposure. The PACKRAT in many ways proves just that, as most students score highly enough on PACKRAT after year 1 to pass PANCE, yet have not had more than the occasional weekly patient encounter. And to be honest, Yale won't put together a program that sets people up to fail. The University reputation is something that is highly regarded among faculty members, and if they go forward with this, they won't let it fail. However, I do not believe the PANCE scores really tell you how ready a person is to enter into practice at graduation, or how good of a clinician they will be out of the gate, and I think that is something that the program will struggle to measure or to be confident in without the daily or frequent in-person encounters with these students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MediMike Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 There are many programs with online components and other programs (UND, UW) that have much of their didactic curriculum online. Huh? Unless that is University of Wisconsin it is incorrect. University of Washington has a fluffy basic AnP/Basic sciences online review prior to the start of curriculum, but that is it. Remainder of didactic education is on site. (They do have a distance Master's option for those who are already certified and wish to get that fancy de-gree) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Yes by UW i meant wisconsin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbum Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I highly doubt competitive applicants will choose to receive their education in a new online program, especially at the high tuition cost of Yale. I would. Especially at Yale's high cost, which is pretty much the same as every other private program I've seen. My cGPA is equal to Yale's class of 2015 average. My sGPA, GRE verbal, GRE quantitative, and GRE analytical percentiles are significantly higher than the class of 2015 average. I'm not sure what their HCE looks like, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that mine is a lot better (quality and quantity). So, I'm what you might call a competitive applicant. In a lot of places, medical students already go to school this way. Plenty of them choose to watch recorded lectures online and study on their own, provided that attendance isn't mandatory. Learning is learning no matter how you go about it. Maybe I'm more comfortable with this because my education has been 90%+ online. The most valuable thing I've learned is how to learn independently...that's a skill that will matter (both as a person and as a provider) a long time after biochemistry has become useless. I realize that my n=1 is a small sample, but it's bigger than the n=0 sample informing the opinions that anything other than a strictly traditional in-person lecture format can't produce successful providers. Maybe instead of asking ARC-PA to stop online PA education folks should ask them to focus on ensuring that online programs address the particular challenges inherent in their delivery model and set students up for success. Just like they do with traditional programs. A lot of people keep referencing the fact that Yale stands to make a lot of money off of this program....but aren't all programs to some extent motivated by revenue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MediMike Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Yes by UW i meant wisconsin. Gotcha brotherman, sorry for the misunderstanding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purrpa Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I would. Especially at Yale's high cost, which is pretty much the same as every other private program I've seen. My cGPA is equal to Yale's class of 2015 average. My sGPA, GRE verbal, GRE quantitative, and GRE analytical percentiles are significantly higher than the class of 2015 average. I'm not sure what their HCE looks like, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that mine is a lot better (quality and quantity). So, I'm what you might call a competitive applicant. In a lot of places, medical students already go to school this way. Plenty of them choose to watch recorded lectures online and study on their own, provided that attendance isn't mandatory. Learning is learning no matter how you go about it. Maybe I'm more comfortable with this because my education has been 90%+ online. The most valuable thing I've learned is how to learn independently...that's a skill that will matter (both as a person and as a provider) a long time after biochemistry has become useless. I realize that my n=1 is a small sample, but it's bigger than the n=0 sample informing the opinions that anything other than a strictly traditional in-person lecture format can't produce successful providers. Maybe instead of asking ARC-PA to stop online PA education folks should ask them to focus on ensuring that online programs address the particular challenges inherent in their delivery model and set students up for success. Just like they do with traditional programs. A lot of people keep referencing the fact that Yale stands to make a lot of money off of this program....but aren't all programs to some extent motivated by revenue? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purrpa Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Oops...obviously I'm not as adept with my iPad as I'd like to be. Nonetheless, Doug, we now have n=2. Although I am most likely more than several decades older than you, I agree, people learn differently. In my prior life I was a nurse, 1st an LPN, than an RN. I was admitted in a pilot program at a local community college in a "self directed" plan of study, utilizing modules (no home internet in 1980! Although they had a fabulous Media Learning Center...). We had no requirements to attend any classes EXCEPT for mandatory lab/clinical learning requirements - just show up & take the exams - practical & written. Graduated top of my class. I enjoyed the social aspect of PA school, however, had I not been accepted to my program of choice, i.e., in same city as spouse, I would still be a RN...or maybe an NP - oh the horror ????. (Grad #1 in PA class too...) Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 the tuition is on par with other PA programs. top distance education programs cot as much as on campus programs and typicall cost same tuition. almost every major university is figuring out distance education as the ciurrent paradigm of high education is not the best fit long term and for many graduate/professional learners. It is said about 10-15% of private US University may close within next 10-15 years due to financial problems. As a result other institutions will fill in the gap. This is why so many seemingly unaffiliated with health care Universities are starting PA programs. They need the money, a PA program that is exclusively didactic curriculum online/distance would be disaster. A program that includes several on campus experiences for physical exam history, anatomy dissection, and other small group work has the potential to work. Georgetown NP school uses a distance education similar to this model check out their web site. Could an MD degree be administered in this format ? Maybe. Depends on the focus/goals of that Medical School. If the goal is to train researchers and research is a major part of the curriculum then it certainly would not be a fit. However, if the medical school is training with the goal of primary care clinician then a portion of the didactic could work. If you are informed and criticizing the program go ahead ..... I have critiques of it myself. However if you do not know what distance education tools exist today then reserve your comments. The old standard of videos and blackboard discussion groups are no longer the standard for distance learning. Schools such as Harvard Columbia UC Berkley and other major universities offer distance degrees and have found them successful. Yale offers a DNP through distance format. It seems there is something to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 We still aren't addressing quality versus quantity. No program should graduate 300 PAs at a time - just ridiculous. No new programs should be accredited without an overall look at the number of schools, number of students, percentage of PAs who might be retiring and the market. Flooding the market with newbie grads is not good for our profession or for those of us who are still in the workforce and need to be here for another 20 years or so. So, I still do not endorse online education of our profession but I am more worried about overwhelming the market with tons of grads who come out in mass numbers with not enough docs or jobs. Also, I could care less if it is Yale or Cornell or whatever. Reputation - meh. Do you know what you are doing? Are you a good PA? One of my kids had a teacher in middle school who went to Grad School at Duke for Poli Sci. He had a certificate on his wall for his Masters. He often pointed at it while teaching and said "As you know, I went to Duke for my Masters AND that said, I know blah, blah, blah". Somehow, his certificate was taken down and a new sheet was put in front from the Muppet University. It took him a while to notice. It was hysterical. Moral of the story - don't talk down to me or be grandiose because you went to X University. One of our Presidents went to Yale and he is an idiot…… I am more impressed by what you do and how you act than where you went to school. Education does not equal wisdom or talent. Nor does quantity equal quality. My very old 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbum Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 We still aren't addressing quality versus quantity. No program should graduate 300 PAs at a time - just ridiculous. Why do you say that? Is there some data that suggests what an appropriate number for a program to graduate is? If the online program graduated say, 30, would that change your opinion at all? No new programs should be accredited without an overall look at the number of schools, number of students, percentage of PAs who might be retiring and the market. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't ARC-PA already require a feasibility study as part of the accreditation process? Also, I could care less if it is Yale or Cornell or whatever. Reputation - meh. Do you know what you are doing? Are you a good PA? I could care less if it is online or live or whatever. Class location-meh. Do you know what your are doing? Are you a good PA? Moral of the story - don't talk down to me or be grandiose because you went to X University. I haven't seen anything to suggest that anyone is pushing this program or paradigm in an effort to show off a fancy diploma. Personally, I am most intrigued at having one more opportunity to get a quality PA education. I don't care about names. I care about results. And having another option is pretty useful when my statistical odds of getting into any one particular school are incredibly long. Education does not equal wisdom or talent. I couldn't possibly agree more. Traditional education does not necessarily impart wisdom or talent and neither does online education. But online education isn't failing to do anything that traditional education does. Except constrain my learning to the dictated times, places , and methods that are laid out in front of me. My very old 2 cents. I can't begin to tell you how much respect I have for the "old 2 cents" contributed by so many on this forum, you included. You all nourished a profession from practically nothing and made it what it is today. And you did it in spite of the old guard establishment who said that medicine couldn't possibly be practiced by anyone other than a classically trained physician. You weren't afraid to try something new and make it a success. So, on behalf of newcomers everywhere, thank you. I get that you have reservations and I get that an educational model that (I'm guessing) you're not all that familiar or comfortable with just doesn't feel right. But I also hope that everyone can put aside the personal feelings long enough to really, honestly, empirically assess whether or not a hybrid (because Yale's proposed program isn't purely online) PA education is viable...and whether or not I am smart enough to figure out whether or not it's a good choice for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camha92 Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Why do you say that? Is there some data that suggests what an appropriate number for a program to graduate is? If the online program graduated say, 30, would that change your opinion at all? I think it's common sense that a class of 300 students would fail miserably unless the faculty:student ratio remains the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbum Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 I think it's common sense that a class of 300 students would fail miserably unless the faculty:student ratio remains the same. Who said anything about not adding faculty? The program is supposed to have its own staff and funding sources, right? So what reason is there to believe that the faculty:student ratio wouldn't be appropriate? Has Yale been known to skimp on such things? As to what an appropriate ratio is, I think it would be better to rely on data to make such judgments rather than relying on the notoriously subjective notion of common sense. I'm sure that there is a wealth of such data available from institutions with quality distance education offerings. Like Yale, for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Latest update: https://medicine.yale.edu/pa/update.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted September 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted September 10, 2015 Latest update: https://medicine.yale.edu/pa/update.aspx should pave the way for their online med school too, right....oh yeah, they don't think that would work.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 In a lot of places, medical students already go to school this way. Plenty of them choose to watch recorded lectures online and study on their own, provided that attendance isn't mandatory. Learning is learning no matter how you go about it. The problem is, these are still "brick and mortar" medical programs. Even if the med students can sit in their rooms and watch video feeds of many lectures, they're not labelled "online" medical schools. Nor does the public perceive them as such. Public perception and branding is VERY important, and unfortunately it's not something the PA profession is notoriously good at. As I've said, when the first US medical schools offer an "online" MD program, we can proudly follow the precedent. But I don't think we should be trying to set it, as it may very well work against our favor in the realm of public perception. should pave the way for their online med school too, right....oh yeah, they don't think that would work.... Yup. It's downright insulting us to our faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aharriganashley Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I'm not realy sure about this. I'm a little nervous as to how this is going to go 5 years from now Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted September 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted September 10, 2015 I fear this will clump us in with the NPs as having online education in the minds of physicians and the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlottew Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I find it interesting that the Yale residential students will be physician ASSOCIATES when they graduate, while grads of the Yale online program will apparently be physician ASSISTANTS. Hmmm. ps. Don't forget that in academics, the entry level position for full faculty is assistant professor, the next level is associate professor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 It has nothing to do with rank of the programs. The on campus program has been the physician associate program since the 70s, and noone wants to change that. Students on campus lobbied to make the online program a different name that would distinguish it from the on campus program, hence Yale Physician Assistant Online was born. Are there better names? Probably, but that wasnt left up to students to decide. Students also lobbied for it to be a second degree, different from the MMSc awarded to on campus students, but that was rejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbum Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 The problem is, these are still "brick and mortar" medical programs. Even if the med students can sit in their rooms and watch video feeds of many lectures, they're not labelled "online" medical schools. Nor does the public perceive them as such. Public perception and branding is VERY important, and unfortunately it's not something the PA profession is notoriously good at. As I've said, when the first US medical schools offer an "online" MD program, we can proudly follow the precedent. But I don't think we should be trying to set it, as it may very well work against our favor in the realm of public perception. It doesn't seem to have hurt the nursing profession a bit. The general consensus around here is that their education pales in comparison to the PA's and yet they still dominate in the political and PR arenas. And their online programs don't have anything close to the level of oversight and scrutiny that an ARC-PA accredited program will. I think we're dramatically overestimating the degree to which the public is aware or cares to be aware of how physicians, PAs, NPs, etc. are educated. But, that's just an opinion. As far as waiting for the doctors to do online medical education first, I disagree. One of the hallmark characteristics of a profession is that it directs itself. We shouldn't be starting online PA schools just because the nurses do and we shouldn't be avoiding it just because the physicians don't. I think most everyone here means well with their comments and opinions, but it's pretty clear that nobody's going to change his or her mind...and that's ok. It looks like online PA training will continue (because it's been going on for quite some time, apparently). Hopefully this will give us all a better opportunity to judge based on results rather than opinions, hopes, and/or fears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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