Online PA Programs

[whoRyou]

Me too ^^^

[PACdan]

db_pavnp & gbrothers,

 

I respect and for the most part agree with your points on the fact that the education itself may be just fine. I'm mainly addressing the image factor and how it appears to the layperson, the public who is not familiar with our education process, credentialing or even our very existence at times.

 

It's the "t-shirt & jeans" vs. "button-up & slacks" point. We could wear either and deliver the same exact quality of care to patients. However, they convey different impressions to the patient, hence one is much more common and "traditional". And we need all the good first impressions we can get. I think there will be a time and place for PA schools (and many others) to follow an online modality, however at this juncture I think we should keep ourselves "offline" for the sake of the general populous. At least until we can point to medical schools and say "they do it the same way". While many med students watch their lectures online these days and don't always attend class, this isn't common knowledge outside our circles. And it certainly isn't advertised by the schools as a common practice. People just think of white coats running around hallowed brick halls, piled with textbooks.

 

I don't want the common, lay perception to be that PAs got their degrees in their jammies, eating Cocoa Puffs. (even if this modality ends up being just as effective)

[cg02186]

If you want to call that thinking more broadly, fine.  I would not.

 

Obviously, I am really missing what is pulling so tightly at heartstrings here.  It seems to me that any education is based on a handful of components.  We can dissect out those components and make simple conclusions about whether the quality is roughly equivalent or not.

 

Online lectures are currently utilized by med schools.  The days of raising your hand in class might be over, but you still have access to the professor.  Doesn't anyone remember what it's like to have students ask endless questions that divert and distract a class?  Questions are for after class.  When you have access to video, you have options.  Playspeed options, taking poop options, breakfast at home options, pause and google options.  These options are better.  Online lectures are better.  Disagree with some of this if you want, but this is why med schools use them and why people like them.

 

The clinical education is face to face, the lectures are online, the rotation are whatever, organized at home.  I see an immediate advantage here as in my city I have access to a top 5 US hospital, the state's largest pysch hopsital, two level 1s, two OB's, plus a local PA and multiple NP programs so those hospitals are familiar with it.  I strongly doubt that the majority of PA programs have a quarter of the access that I do from my home city.

 

Anyway, there is definitely no changing minds on this.

 

I think this is largely based on each individual student.  I know for me it is the complete opposite.  All of our lectures are taught in class, in person and recorded for us to go back to listen.  On instances when lectures have been recorded and not taught in person, I have not gotten as much out of the lecture.  Yes, to some it may be a distraction, but students asking questions and the professor being able to clarify something, give an example, or talk about a story involving the subject clinically, helps me a tremendous amount and I don't get that with just the recording.  To me, the best way to learn the material is to hear it first in person in class, review it on my own, and then listen to it online when I can adjust the play speed, re-listen to certain parts, skip through the stuff I'm already confident about.  Again, to each their own, but for me personally being taught in person in the classroom is way more beneficial than sitting on a couch at home listening to something. 

[Guest Paula]

db_pavnp & gbrothers,

 

I respect and for the most part agree with your points on the fact that the education itself may be just fine. I'm mainly addressing the image factor and how it appears to the layperson, the public who is not familiar with our education process, credentialing or even our very existence at times.

 

It's the "t-shirt & jeans" vs. "button-up & slacks" point. We could wear either and deliver the same exact quality of care to patients. However, they convey different impressions to the patient, hence one is much more common and "traditional". And we need all the good first impressions we can get. I think there will be a time and place for PA schools (and many others) to follow an online modality, however at this juncture I think we should keep ourselves "offline" for the sake of the general populous. At least until we can point to medical schools and say "they do it the same way". While many med students watch their lectures online these days and don't always attend class, this isn't common knowledge outside our circles. And it certainly isn't advertised by the schools as a common practice. People just think of white coats running around hallowed brick halls, piled with textbooks.

 

I don't want the common, lay perception to be that PAs got their degrees in their jammies, eating Cocoa Puffs. (even if this modality ends up being just as effective)

 

I ate Wheaties, the breakfast of champions during my DE program.  Maybe that's why I passed PANCE (and PANRE) and got a job after graduation. 

[PACdan]

I ate Wheaties, the breakfast of champions during my DE program.  Maybe that's why I passed PANCE (and PANRE) and got a job after graduation. 

 

Again, I'm against the way Yale is rolling this out and what they've said SO FAR. I'm against the expansion and proliferation of it, which is exactly what I see as the goal when you partner with for-profit, publicly traded companies to manage parts of your program.

 

Did your program: 1) Shut out alumni and others within the profession during the decision making process, who are largely opposed?

                              2) Have someone state they'd like to add hundreds more online PA students within five years (even though their current program size is 40)?

                              3) Split student tuition with a for-profit company to outsource & manage clinical rotations?

 

Or did your program start with a small cohort and keep their online class sizes relatively small, while managing it in-house without huge, national attention getting press releases?

 

Call me cynical, I've said all I can really say on it, but I think it's all about the $$$$$.

[Guest Paula]

^^^^^   It was a joke.  Laugh a little today, it will make you feel better.

 

I was the guinea pig for my DE program, first one accepted and first one who graduated from it.

 

 

I get your points, tho.  The money and number of students who might be allowed to enter the program appears to have the $$$$$$$ intent behind it.

 

But, why are Yale students content with paying $80,000 for the on-campus program when obviously Yale can afford to split the tuition for the for-profit company?

 

Tuition overall is way too much for both.  

[swooshie1]

Still can't imagine someone would actually pay $80K plus on an online program... Seems like a risky gamble if after it you can't pass the PANCE!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I would argue it is far more annoying and frustrating to pack up your car, uproot yourself and potentially your family, pay $80k plus for a traditional brick and mortar program, and THEN not pass PANCE!   I know of no program, online or trad'l,  that guarantees graduates will pass the PANCE. 

[Whitcc1]

I would argue it is far more annoying and frustrating to pack up your car, uproot yourself and potentially your family, pay $80k plus for a traditional brick and mortar program, and THEN not pass PANCE! I know of no program, online or trad'l, that guarantees graduates will pass the PANCE.

No program can guarantee it but isn't that up to the student to research which program will give them the best shot to pass? IMHO

 

Also isn't that part of the reason the older more established programs are harder to get into?

They have proven that the didactical portion of their curriculum works. Oh that and the whole established clinical rotations part...

 

But I see your point if someone is convinced that an online curriculum will ensure their success... Be my guest, that just isn't my cup of tea.

 

You're going to spend plenty of $ either way. But seems to me that an online program pumping out hundreds of students should be about 1/4 to 1/8 of the cost of a regular institution.

 

Just my thoughts...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SocialMedicine]

i do not think anybody on this forum really understands what distance education is at this stage. I am not sure I understand it. But if the right people and the right amount of money are put into this it could be very interesting. i believe traditional programs are the best option for 99% of students. But maybe there is someone out there that could fit into this program ? 

[swooshie1]

No program can guarantee it but isn't that up to the student to research which program will give them the best shot to pass? IMHO Also isn't that part of the reason the older more established programs are harder to get into? They have proven that the didactical portion of their curriculum works. Oh that and the whole established clinical rotations part... But I see your point if someone is convinced that an online curriculum will ensure their success... Be my guest, that just isn't my cup of tea. You're going to spend plenty of $ either way. But seems to me that an online program pumping out hundreds of students should be about 1/4 to 1/8 of the cost of a regular institution. Just my thoughts... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I do agree with you regarding cost. But actually I think PA education in general is grossly inflated, given the amount of time PA students spend teaching themselves (refer to Gbrothers' post re: youtube, Google, UptoDate, etc).  This is true in the older as well as newer programs.  If you're using PANCE pass rates as the benchmark for one's "best shot to pass" then it looks like Yale is right up there with a 5-yr avg at 98%.   Seems like they're doing something right; maybe they will bust this online thing out of the water too.  I'm not sure this is really about anyone being convinced online curriculum will ensure success, I think it is more about what fits one's lifestyle / learning style. 

[Music and Medicine]

i do not think anybody on this forum really understands what distance education is at this stage. I am not sure I understand it. But if the right people and the right amount of money are put into this it could be very interesting. i believe traditional programs are the best option for 99% of students. But maybe there is someone out there that could fit into this program ? 

As a Senior Graduating from East Carolina University in May I can say that online education has its pros/cons. The major problem is with the content that professors use for class lectures and test. Many people can take the quiz or exam via Blackboard and just Google the questions and find the answers in some type of study bank related to the class. I have learned that many professors use the same material in different states and it's as if they are just copying each other and not using the books properly. There are several classes where students do not need to use their books because the material has been used so many times that copying the question in Google brings up the test and answers. For me most of my classes have required that I use a locked down browser which stops students from having open tabs on the testing computer. It is effective until someone pulls out an extra laptop and Googles the question and gets the answer. The best form of test taking I have seen and used which costed me between $25-$30 is using the online proctor services. This service requires that you pay money to take the exam in your home or for free at some colleges. However, I always did mine at home because it would cost me more in gas to travel to my campus. The proctor would view the room, testing area, and computer screen to make sure there were no cheat sheets or extended monitors. Then they would ask for remote assess to the computer to check for duplicate pages etc. Once everything was done they read the rules and normally we had about a 2 hour block to finish the test depending on the content. That could work for reducing cheating among students and rid the school of slackers. Online school is not easy by any means and in some ways it requires more of you than traditional seated class.

 

 My goal is to apply to PA school next year and the thought of an online PA school scares me because I know what it is like to do an entire degree online. Some of the online degrees are watered down and many students do not have to open a book because the answers are already on the web. The good thing about online school is it gives some who have families the ability to work while going to school. However, I have found that there are just as many dumb people in online as there are dumb people in a traditional seated class on campus. When I started working on my pre-reqs last summer I decided to attend another school closer to home for the summer and the experience I gained by being in a class with classmates was something I will always remember. Now with me graduating in about a month and going to campus more so now to pick up my cap and gown among other things like my honors society stoles etc,. It makes the whole online and graduation experience bitter sweet because I missed out on some possible good relationships and friends. I hardly know anyone that I am graduating with because some classes require Discussion Board post and some do not which neglects the students from meeting each other. I go to one of the top tech schools in my state and have had a great experience while here but for some doing an online PA program might cause many problems. I prefer to go to a traditional campus for PA school because the online experience has become dull to me. I can not wait to interact with people in a class again where I can help classmates who may need help figuring out something in anatomy or pharmacology and receive help myself.

[SocialMedicine]

sounds like you are going to be doing some great stuff music/medicine.

 

what is the cost of developing a distance program that is high quality and includes in person (electronically or physically in person) w/ some frequency. It is likely going to cost similar to in person PA school. At least initially for a few years until production costs can be recovered.

 

Take a look at Georgetowns distance learning degree. It does not look like Univ of Phoenix or blackboard.

 

PA school is expensive ... Currently the cost is worth it even at 80 or 90 or perhaps 100K. If we believe the AAPA that PAs are starting at 90 and median of 110 it seems to be a financially sound career option. Look at other Masters degrees (most of them) with similar cost that often do not lead to a professional or executive level job within the subject matter. Look at public health school. The reason why it is expensive is because it takes A LOT to manage a program and instruct it correctly. The PA school with 1 faculty member teaching 5 areas of clinical medicine (pulm, GI, pharmacology) can get away with lower tuition. However, if your goal is a robust faculty with expertise in each area they lecture it is going to take a lot of administrative and salary support at the MD, PhD, and senior lecturer level.  Not to mention several PA schools now pay for clerkship sites. I have heard (this could be inaccurate) one school pays 700 for each student per clerkship at one site.

[Music and Medicine]

SocialMedicine,

I cannot say how much a distance education program for PA school would cost compared to traditional seated class. However, from my experience distance education tuition in the state of North Carolina is cheaper than traditional seated class by at least $1500-$2000.

I'm not sure I believe the reports on how much a PA makes starting out after graduation. Some numbers state in the 80k range and some state in 90k range. I have also seen on some job posting sites like indeed.com and monster.com where some doctor offices are offering 100k or more if the experience level is between 3-5 years. I may have this incorrect but one place I saw in Texas I believe was offering around $140,000 a year. IMHO the financial factor while important is not more important to me than job security. What scares me about the online PA programs are the possibility of oversauturation and people who care nothing about patients and their wellness. I have seen a lot of people who have gone to college and majored in degrees that landed them in jobs far from their field of interest. When people see how attractive the salaries are for PA's it can strike that intergreed that most people have causing many to chase it for the money. I was talking to my wife a few days ago before finding this website and told her that the way things are going the PA program may need to go to a doctoral level to ween out those who are doing it for the high salary and not for the well being of the patients. However, one has to wonder then if it is worth doing a doctoral in PA when one could just go to Med School since it would be similar from a time stand point.

[Yale10]

One of the main issues that non-Yalies wouldn't understand about the current program is that they have had major issues for a long time. I think they were put on probation for accreditation a while back, they had a huge cheating scandal a few years ago, and a couple years ago they had a full revolt by the students on the program administration for being incompetent. This is just another in a long line of issues, and there is a general lack of trust that the program can make good decisions. In general, this is not a program at the top of its game. Adding an online degree should be the last thing on their minds until their house is in order.

 

A Yale PA degree is only worth as much as it is because of the constant learning experiences you get on-campus and the general prestige of its medical school resources. You get neither from an online program with outsourced clinical rotations and a virtual cadaver lab, and it is ridiculous that Yale tried to bypass the accreditation by applying for a "program expansion" instead of applying as a separate program. It isn't the same program in nearly every way, and the degrees should be differentiatable on a resume. Yet, they are one shady accrediting maneuver away from it being so. If Yale opens a can of worms with this maneuver, you're going to be seeing on-campus PA degrees as the minority in a few years, and no one will be able to compare their credentials. They say their "first class" will be ~12 students, but they are planning to have new "classes" start three times per year, so they might have just as many online students as on-campus students after the first year.

 

Yale still doesn't have a clue about why the students are angry, and explaining it to them seems to end with another media statement and press release. All we want is for them to apply for separate accreditation from the current program, differentiate the degrees by name, ... and now an apology for how they are treating those with reasonable opinions and suggestions. These are things they should have done without asking. Who designed this new program anyways?....oh, it was a corporation, a bunch of MDs, and a Yes Man.

 

By the way, are those involved required to sign financial forms barring them from investments in 2U?

 

Students who had multiple acceptances for next year's class are already dropping out for their other options. I wonder what the students that are left will say to next year's cohort during their visitation and interviews? Probably to stay as far away as possible from this fiasco. Nice recruitment strategy.

[didymus]

Much of the following was a reply I posted in a conversation with a senior member of this forum. I thought it was worth posting here.

 

This program is interesting to me since Yale plans to use 2U for the didactics, which is the same program I am using for a distance MPH I'm getting through The George Washington University. The lectures are actually live and "face to face" with the other students and the professor via webcam (think Skype). We show up at a scheduled time, can see each other, speak up, break into small groups for presentations, reports, and projects; there are live powerpoint presentations, white boards, and other interactive materials that equal to or surpass anything I've ever experienced with traditional, on-campus education.

 

There are recorded lectures as well that are very similar to what medical schools provide their students during M1 and M2. My experience has been that the distance MPH is the most challenging academic experience of my life and far out performs any in-person education I have received. The program is rigorous​, and my 4-hour biostatistics final last week kicked my ass (I've never taken a more challenging exam).

 

For me, this distance, online program is far superior to all of my previous educational experiences. Since GW is such a reputable university (one of the top MPH programs in the country) I'm in class with other students from Berkeley, Harvard, Yale, Northwestern, etc. My professors are hired by GW to run these courses, yet many of them are still in tenured positions at the top universities around the country, and give their live class sessions remotely (such as one professor who is on faculty with Johns Hopkins Medical school, or another at Vandy, and another at Harvard). For anyone who thinks the education is somehow less than because it is delivered on a computer screen rather than on a campus, you are just mistaken. We are learning everything the traditional students are, and we have the same lectures, assignments, quizzes, projects, research papers, and exams as they do. The material isn't different. The grading scale isn't different. A 90% on the final exam is the same for the student on campus as the student across the country. It requires applying the exact same information.

 

It's my personal experience with 2U that has me most interested in the Yale PA program since the lectures are live, yet instead of sitting in a lecture hall or conference room, I am sitting at a rented office space in my city 1,000 miles away, but still have live interaction with my professors and classmates. For me, it has actually been much easier to speak up during class via the online platform than in a crowded lecture hall. It actually feels much more personal.

 

It seems like those educated before online learning became legit are opposed to it at every level. I know of old school docs who don't like that many med students these days don't even have to actually go to in-person lectures since all of them are recorded and can be watched at home. These are the same docs who think the 80-hour week restrictions on residents are too lenient. It's almost as if any time something is different for "youngsters" it is deemed too easy by those who had to "walk 20 miles to school in the snow without shoes, uphill both ways."

This approach to education seems to fit much of how younger people learn these days, and is, again, in my experience quite rigorous. A tremendous amount of self-motivation is required to keep up with the material, and, ultimately, all the same exams have to be passed. I'm not personally sure what the difference is between PA students doing didactics via a computer screen and the high number of med students doing it.

But I do understand the skeptical perspective as well. I think the first few cohorts are going to have to kill PANCE to legitimize this program and this approach. As long as Yale doesn't lower admissions standards, but only offers more seats to equally qualified applicants, and gives the same exams to those in New Haven as those in BFE, I think it will work out well.

[EMEDPA]

how do you do an online neuro or knee exam? how do you practice it after lecture with folks who can correct your errors unless you live near other students in the program?

[didymus]

how do you do an online neuro or knee exam? how do you practice it after lecture with folks who can correct your errors unless you live near other students in the program?

This is a great question and I'm not sure everyone can recreate these experiences off campus. As you know, my situation is a little different since I have more access to physicians and clinical time than others may, so having guided hands-on practice for me won't really be a problem.

 

Your point is totally valid for some, but not for all. That means this online PA program won't be for everyone, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be for anyone.

[SocialMedicine]

but isn't this program combining online / in person ? lets say you spend 4 weeks on campus during the didactic year. perhaps that is enough time for a cadaver anatomy lab and physical exam course ?  but lets see what the final product is. I am speculating. 

[cinntsp]

As you know, my situation is a little different since I have more access to physicians and clinical time than others may, so having guided hands-on practice for me won't really be a problem.

 

Being around clinicians doesn't equate to having physical exam labs and whatnot.

[didymus]

Being around clinicians doesn't equate to having physical exam labs and whatnot.

 

I agree. Could having clinician mentorship (sort of like what N. Dakota does, I believe) serve this function? Also the information I have read has stated explicitly that Yale will require physical presence on campus in New Haven a few times a year. I wonder if this is when a foundation will be established for these types of skills.

 

It sounds like there are many details to be worked out still. It will be interesting to learn how the program intends on addressing these concerns.

[db_pavnp]

didymus, I assume your MPH exams are proctored in some fashion.  That is the only comment I think your post was missing.  Please address.

 

 

 

I don't want to beat a horse, but concerns about exam labs, as mentioned, seem unfounded as everything indicates that there will be face-to-face exam labs.

[Z PA-C]

Yes...I am curious about how the testing process works. How can you assure that students are not cheating with an online test?

 

Locked browser? Have a second laptop/all your notes in front of you, have a classmate on speakerphone

 

Go to a testing center between this date and this date?..hey classmate, you already took the test first, what was on it? Tell me for this test and I will help you on the next one

 

I personally don't mind having online lectures (I certainly would not prefer it) but it's the cadaver lab, the physical diagnosis/clinical skills, and exams are where the issues are going to be.

[EMEDPA]

proctored exams at testing ctrs. I did that for an online stats course in the past. Just like taking pance or panre. you are on camera, have to show ID,have to empty pockets, etc.

[Z PA-C]

proctored exams at testing ctrs. I did that for an online stats course in the past. Just like taking pance or panre. you are on camera, have to show ID,have to empty pockets, etc.

But did everyone have to take the exam at the exact same time or do you have a time period in which it had to be completed?

 

If it's flexible my above concern still stands

[Febrifuge]

i do not think anybody on this forum really understands what distance education is at this stage. I am not sure I understand it. But if the right people and the right amount of money are put into this it could be very interesting. i believe traditional programs are the best option for 99% of students. But maybe there is someone out there that could fit into this program ? 

 

I've been staying out of this thread so far, but at some small risk of revealing my identity (to like 3 or 4 people who would possibly have reason to read this), I worked for 7 years for the company that became Capella University, before chucking it all to double my student loans and pursue my medical career. So I've had some heady discussions with PhD type administrators about distance education, adult learning, and such. I've also dealt with the business side of that industry.

 

One thing that really struck me about PA school, once I got there, was that even accounting for the laptops and the PowerPoint (ohh, the endless PowerPointA!) it was very much a traditional, lecture-style, heavy pedagogical style of teaching and learning. Especially so for us PAs; the MD students at the affiliated school on campus apparently could attend lectures or not, except for certain mandatory ones. If they wanted to study at home or in the library, and show up to take tests, they could. Meanwhile, we would get a phone call by 10am on any day we weren't in class as usual (often sitting in unofficially "assigned" seats, to keep things simple) at the beginning of the day.

 

It felt very much like attending Harvard or Yale or any state school medical program probably would have... 100 years previous.

 

It struck me as strange, and frightening, and kind of funny, that my ability to function as a clinician would on some level depend on my ability to recall and synthesize information that at one point in time, somebody at the front of the room had read to me, while I sat in an auditorium seat and typed my notes. For the record, that is a very efficient way to teach, but the last 50 years of research have made it pretty clear that for a lot of people and a lot of subjects, it's actually a fairly poor way to learn.

 

Most of my best learning happened on the train to or from school, talking through the tougher material with classmates. Failing a section of a test was never fun, but the remedial sessions where I would sit in a professor's office for half an hour and we would go back and forth about a topic was always a very effective way to lock something down and really understand it.

 

So, "distance ed" or "online school" is a big category. If it's done intelligently, and it's well-delivered by the school and well-used by the students, I think not only test scores but actual useful retention of the info might actually be better in the online cohort than in their traditional classroom-bound classmates. I certainly hope they will be studying this kind of thing up and down and sideways, and Yale being Yale I imagine they will.