andersenpa Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 36 states had an outright majority in favor.emergency medicine as a specialty was strongly for name change and willing to pay for it. I couldn't find the link I thought I had for the tabulation.... If you've got it pls post it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Sigh... Looks like you've gone over to the dark-side... Maybe you need a few days out at Camp Mckall to re-ignite that "COIN" indoc and dust off your TTPs and that STP 31-18-SM-TG SOLDIER’S MANUAL AND TRAINERS GUIDE MOS 18 SPECIAL FORCES COMMON SKILLS SKILL LEVELS 3 AND 4... Well....if it so simple why don't you get off your backside and come do something about it. Why don't you get involved with fixing it? It seems to really be a thorn in your side. You seem to have some hidden answers that no one else has been intelligent enough to come up with. Come on and apply for a position on one of the committee's. Get involved if this bothers you so. Seriously..... Nice try sport.... I Didn't at one time write that 'it would be simple'... but just because it won't be simple, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. "Iron Mike" exemplifies that notion. Also I'm NOT the "meetings and committee" type of guy (I'm more of a total chaos and Mass confusion, smiling dictator type). I'll leave the commitees for the careerists.... aka.. buearucrats. I'll let them deal with that... but do expect them to listen to their constituency (the folks financing them via membership dues) sans paternalism. Well, Brian...you seem to be the only other person here who recognizes that that could happen. The first time it did, some of the doubters would jump up as ask "Just what the H*^L were you folks in leadership thinking?" Thanks for your comment Are you ready to get flamed by those who disagree with you?(LOL) Bob Again... nice try...!! Brian isn't "the ONLY other person on this forum who recognizes that ... that could happen"... The Moon could burst tonight, spewing cheese all over the galaxy... The Mars rover COULD find a real live martian named Eddie... Just because something COULD happen doesn't follow that it will. As a well trained and experienced SOF solder YOU should know this. Also... I asked for concrete examples/instances/references of PAs actually losing ground/position/scope during the many THOUSANDS of times in any of the states that the practice acts were opened to change/add/remove something. I look forward to reading these actual occurrences where what "could" happen acttually happens ... since its all too often reflexively tossed out on the table as the reason the status quo should be maintained. I don't believe there is such a program and if there was you couldn't get into it if you were not first a nurse, then an NP....they aren't going to let PA's into a nurse practitioner led program without being an NP....also...what makes you think they have more privileges than you do now? [independence, practice ownership without physician involvement. Even in Your clinic there in NC... your SPs name MUST be on your wall. I think I remember from the pics that its even on the outside "signage" ... at theFront door right...?? And , regardless of how much you have invested, or how much GOLD Standard medicine you provide to that community YOU are in there... if they/he/she (SP) decides tonight to stop allowing YOU to use their name.. YOU are done by tomorrow morning...!! This is not a situation NPs face in over half the states as physician involement is not required for the NPs.] Just because they hold the DNP degree doesn't let them practice medicine any different than you do. [umm... yes it does.. INDEPENDENTLY...!!] That would be their desire, but state legislation regulates that and you can be sure physician led organizations are NOT going to give those privileges to anyone [Correct... but since NPs respond to and take direction from the BON... those physician led organizations can POUND SAND and are all but irrelevent...!!] who has not graduated from a bona-fide medical school. Your are kidding right...??? Notice that the STUDENTS who responded above know better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 20, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 20, 2012 I couldn't find the link I thought I had for the tabulation....If you've got it pls post it I don't have the breakdown. I know who does and will try to get a copy from him to post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Come on and apply for a position on one of the committee's. Get involved if this bothers you so. Seriously..... What committees, where? Please expound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 20, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 20, 2012 Andersen- here are the aapa census stats: TOTAL States FULL MAJORITY 30.1 % TOTAL States Plurality 42.9 % Total % of PAs PRO 73% of PA Population http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparetable.jsp?ind=440&cat=8⊂=103&yr=138&typ=7&sort=a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 20, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 20, 2012 Totals: Yes 5,880 45.20% No 4,299 33.10% Unsure 2,817 21.70% Revised with SPLITTING UNSURE Yes 7,289 56% No 5,708 44% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIPPER Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Brian isn't "the ONLY other person on this forum who recognizes that ... that could happen"... . The same be said about name change? "Physician Associate" could produce more respect could cause less confusion could engender a mutual respect within the medical community could lessen confusion politically, could lessen insurance barriers... etc... Speculation is a two way street... The grass isn't always greener and there isn't one iota of proof that title change will have any positive impact. None. Frankly I don't want to find out if thing could happen 12000 voters isn't representative of the entire PA population by a longshot. Yes, you can extrapolate and assume. I'd argue that many just didn't spend the time voting/filling out the survey b/c they didn't feel like it...Jeez do you know how many of those things I've thrown away??? So who really knows what would happen in a real vote. it could go either way...But when one is emotional charged and takes sides (just like in politics) any varying opinion faces immediate flame-out. Ruled immature, stupid, baseless and obtuse. It's annoying. Bob I'm not trying to stir the pot. Thsi is obviously a hot-topic for many. The only thing I have in this fight is my beliefs about what is best for our profession (just like Dem vs Repub)...I'm entitled to take sides...Many on this forum support change. But that isn't representative of the whole... That it was killed off so emphatically speaks volumes... one could speculate as to why, but conspiracy sounds better. Fact is, our elected representatives killed it off, as is their perogative.If we don't like our representatives, someone can begin a recall movement, or wait and continue to vote for those who can make things change. That sir is democracy. Much is said about how this is just the beginning of a stronger movement. Name change has been pursued more than once and each time flames out. I'm sure the Libertarian party feels every 4 years that this year it will be different... but it never is. Contrarian I'm not mocking you, I'm simply showing how this whole issues is all based on speculation...for both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 The same be said about name change?"Physician Associate" could produce more respect could cause less confusion could engender a mutual respect within the medical community could lessen confusion politically, could lessen insurance barriers... etc... Speculation is a two way street... The grass isn't always greener and there isn't one iota of proof that title change will have any positive impact. None. Frankly I don't want to find out if thing could happen With regards to respect, confusion, insurance....there is more to be lost/less to be gained by staying with assistant. Right now the best we have is anecdotal evidence.....Level C evidence if you follow that parlance. 12000 voters isn't representative of the entire PA population by a longshot. Yes, you can extrapolate and assume. I'd argue that many just didn't spend the time voting/filling out the survey b/c they didn't feel like it...Jeez do you know how many of those things I've thrown away??? So who really knows what would happen in a real vote. it could go either way...But when one is emotional charged and takes sides (just like in politics) any varying opinion faces immediate flame-out. Ruled immature, stupid, baseless and obtuse. It's annoying. OK....so, do we disregard all statisitical analysis because we don't "feel" like it has any merit (the exact words used by the HOD by the way)? We base multiple decisions about PAs on the national survey and that gets ~20k responses per yr or ~25% return. Yes, we CAN extrapolate. That's how data works. Furthermore one could say that the PAs who "threw their survey away" or didn't take the time did so because they didn't feel the issue was worth consideration. Our AAPA friends tell s that "policy is made by those who show up". If those PAs don't put in the effort to make their views known, then they forfeit their say in the matter. Your efforts to disregard the numbers....just don't fly. Varying opinion deserves flame out if it is simply opinion without basis (basis which we have with the petition and the AAPA census). Bob I'm not trying to stir the pot. Thsi is obviously a hot-topic for many. The only thing I have in this fight is my beliefs about what is best for our profession (just like Dem vs Repub)...I'm entitled to take sides...Many on this forum support change. But that isn't representative of the whole... The forum isn't. The census is. That it was killed off so emphatically speaks volumes... one could speculate as to why, but conspiracy sounds better. Fact is, our elected representatives killed it off, as is their perogative. At least you are willing to speak the truth. Delegates followed their personal politics over the concensus of their constituents. Not exactly representative, is it? I chose to be a CLINICAL PA and have my dues and votes go towards leaders who would represent the PAs of my state/specialty, etc. That didn't happen for many PAs in Toronto. If we don't like our representatives, someone can begin a recall movement, or wait and continue to vote for those who can make things change. That sir is democracy. It's happening. Much is said about how this is just the beginning of a stronger movement. Name change has been pursued more than once and each time flames out. I'm sure the Libertarian party feels every 4 years that this year it will be different... but it never is. Contrarian I'm not mocking you, I'm simply showing how this whole issues is all based on speculation...for both sides. If you want to speak for the concesus of PAs nationwide, look at the numbers. EMEDPA just posted them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Totals:Yes 5,880 45.20% No 4,299 33.10% Unsure 2,817 21.70% Revised with SPLITTING UNSURE Yes 7,289 56% No 5,708 44% E, I love you brother. But you cannot split the unsure category. They are unsure for a reason. What if 99% of them changed to no? You can't manipulate the data like that. We have a plurality, but NOT a majority. That's what we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2012 I just copied and pasted. data manipulation done by others. if you look at the state by state breakdown I believe > 30 states had a true majority. for example in my home state the "for" figure was 53% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Mark Twain once *said," there are lies, damn lies and statistics." *i agree with michael. *don't try and twist the data so it looks like it's in your favor. give it a rest and get *involved! *if you're really committed *to your cause and ideals, why don't you try and change things from within. *complaining on this forum is not going to get *the professional title changed, activism will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2012 several of us here are "involved" at the level of specialty and state societies as well as grass roots campaigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 several of us here are "involved" at the level of specialty and state societies as well as grass roots campaigns. And those societies are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 several of us here are "involved" at the level of specialty and state societies as well as grass roots campaigns. And what official policy on the issue of title change has any of these societies written and or publish? and please do not mention the "names change committee". What society such as emergency medicine, orthopedics, pediatrics or other society has made an official statement/policy on this issue. I already know about psychiatry family practice. Can you name any other officially recognized specialty organizations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2012 The airforce, psych, and fp societies all endorse name change. we have several state and specialty society past presidents and officers on the 100 leaders statement as well as a former 2 time president of the aapa. we have several pa paragon award winners. we have several military officers at the rank of general or admiral. we have a member of the first class at duke. we have many pa school faculty members, several at the director level. the fact of the matter was that the hod circumvented the will of those who elected them for completely self serving reasons( it would be too much work to explore name change). we weren't asking them to change the name, we were asking them to investigate the ramifications. Even Steve hanson, former aapa president, who is against name change saw the merits of conducting the study. without that study anything they say(or anything we say) is pure conjecture. what is the down side of doing a study? if it truly costs 100 million dollars, prove it and I will let it go. what if it costs only 10,000 dollars/state? that is definitely doable. without the study we are all just spouting opinions, myself included. stay tuned for new info on the name change movement likely coming before the end of the month.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted August 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2012 The airforce, psych, and fp societies all endorse name change.we have several state and specialty society past presidents and officers on the 100 leaders statement as well as a former 2 time president of the aapa. we have several pa paragon award winners. we have several military officers at the rank of general or admiral. we have a member of the first class at duke. we have many pa school faculty members, several at the director level. the fact of the matter was that the hod circumvented the will of those who elected them for completely self serving reasons( it would be too much work to explore name change). we weren't asking them to change the name, we were asking them to investigate the ramifications. without that study anything they say(or anything we say) is pure conjecture. what is the down side of doing a study? if it truly costs 100 million dollars, prove it. what if it costs only 10,000 dollars/state? that is definitely doable. without the study we are all just spouting opinions, myself included. As a future military PA, is there a place I can see the endorsement or statement from the air force or other military officers you mention. You can PM me if you'd like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2012 as a future military pa, is there a place i can see the endorsement or statement from the air force or other military officers you mention. You can pm me if you'd like. will do..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2012 ). One lobby is a powerhouse that chases what it wants, the other is afraid of its shadow. Which brand is going to supports its crew? Where do i want to spend 20 years or more of my career? in you shoes i would do the dual pa/np program at uc davis. Training of a pa with backing of the np lobby...best of both worlds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2012 You get licensed as both and have to keep both certs up. recerts for pa's go to 10 yrs in 2014. having both would be great. work anywhere regardless of local politics. best job around me is np only as the docs don't want to sign pa charts because they feel it gives them added liability. name change is importnat but it isn't the only issue. the aapa leadership(at least the president) knows we need to get rid of terms like supervision, etc in order to have a better work environment. I support them doing so and remain a member( and "distinguished fellow") at the present time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostnineone Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Aren't PA's considered "assistants" because things are usually delegated to them? (I read something like that somewhere, but I also read something that says PA's usually just assist in surgery and even I know that's bull****) It seems like most PT's end up just walking in to the ER and getting a PA or picking one as a PCP so idk how the delegation thing would work anyways (but I don't know how ANYTHING works...so...) Edit: if the AAPA drops supervision does that mean total autonomy or just finding another word for supervision? (or at least having it sound less like you need to be supervised by a Dr 24/7 so you don't go fishing in the sharps container because it's pretty) Edit: I also know that technically EVERYTHING is delegated to someone or other, and it doesn't make someone an assistant because of that but I hope you know what I mean... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 the fact of the matter was that the hod circumvented the will of those who elected them for completely self serving reasons( it would be too much work to explore name change). the delegates in the HOD did not circumvent anything. Were you there to observe the debate, I was? IMO, the issues were debated in open forum, both sides presented there cases in a collegial and civil manner and in the end the vote was very close.100 individual signing and supporting a petition is admirable and there is a lot of information in that petition that could be debated. However, a well-developed factual policy statement from one or more of the officially recognized specialty organizations would be more creditable. And not just a statement stating that they support a title change. I would like to see several of the specialty organization unite, develop policy/position statement and then create a resolution to be submitted at the 2013 HOD. Just because the issue failed to achieve your desire results at the 2012 HOD does not mean you should continue to pursue your goal. However eventually we must put this issue to rest and focus on the more important things that face our profession. I still don't believe that a title change is in any way going to change our future potential increase in scope of practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2012 Aren't PA's considered "assistants" because things are usually delegated to them? (I read something like that somewhere, but I also read something that says PA's usually just assist in surgery and even I know that's bull****) It seems like most PT's end up just walking in to the ER and getting a PA or picking one as a PCP so idk how the delegation thing would work anyways (but I don't know how ANYTHING works...so...) Edit: if the AAPA drops supervision does that mean total autonomy or just finding another word for supervision? (or at least having it sound less like you need to be supervised by a Dr 24/7 so you don't go fishing in the sharps container because it's pretty) Edit: I also know that technically EVERYTHING is delegated to someone or other, and it doesn't make someone an assistant because of that but I hope you know what I mean... the preferred term word be collaboration or sponsorship. the way delegation works is very loose. I work without a physician on site. they delegate in absentia all the pts who present there to me but don't know about them until a month later when they review their charts. the decisions and dispos are mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I have to wonder what the PA part brings to the equation besides the benefit of training. Basically, it's if you have an interest in a Surgical focus. NPs don't train in Surgery, PAs do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIPPER Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 the fact of the matter was that the hod circumvented the will of those who elected them for completely self serving reasons( it would be too much work to explore name change). we weren't asking them to change the name, we were asking them to investigate the ramifications.. Implying a representative rolled over and didn't support a stand for title change completely, totally and in whole discounts the constituency that supports the status quo and that EXPECTS the vote to reflect that.... They are there to represent us, Which it appears they did as retold by those that attended.... It was debated. There was a vote, and ruled out. If this isn't what happened, then there must be official minutes kept.. Perhaps get them and post them online... To add some clarity to what happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 if it gets put to rest without name change, the i would bet that marks an accelerated decline of the aapa. you have over 40 percent of PAs that indicated that as an important issue. what i see happening if this gets benched is that it will highlight how mickey mouse things have become, and PAs wont be making advances down the line. youll see PAs going more to the specialties, and NPs taking over general practice with thier DNPs. more and more, PAs will identify as "cardiology PA", or "emergency PA", or "surgical PA", because they will be marginalized to either niches, or be practicing under conditions that always trail NPs. jdtpac, you are the poster boy for someone choosing NP vs PA... it in how you advocate for a timid approach to advancing PAs. Statements like this further convinces me that you have a very narrow scope of understanding of the big picture in our profession. If the nurse practitioners "takeover general practice" it is not because of anything that the Academy did or did not do. And it surely doesn't have anything to do with our title. You identified the issue in your own statement. PAs are going into this subspecialties because that is where the needs is and the jobs are plentiful. Not to mention that PA's matriculate into the subspecialties at a greater rate than nurse practitioners. The reward of going into a subspecialty is not only because of the mental and physical challenges a PA might face, but also because of the monetary awards. Your obvious commitment to primary care is admirable and the profession/Academy is continually advocating for more involvement of PAs in providing that care but it is not our greatest area of utilization. Greater than 60% of the profession practices in subspecialties. I do not know what you mean that I am the " poster boy" for someone choosing NP versus PA? 2 totally different paths and prerequisites to getting in these professions. My advocacy over my career has been quite aggressive in promoting our profession. I been intricately involved in writing policies and opening the door for many positions in my state and around the country. But you're entitled to opinion despite the fact you know nothing about me personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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