Pre-Pa or RN first?

[givemethatdegree]

So I'm currently in this weird and stressful situation. College classes start next week and I haven't decided what I want to do and where I want to go. 

I'm stuck choosing between starting out as a nurse and getting my nursing associates at my local community college while getting my pre requisites done for PA school versus going straight into my state name university as a Pre-Pa major.

Each path has it's own benefit. Starting out as a nurse will guarantee me quality patient contact hours that I'll need for PA school, I was hoping to get a lot maybe around 2500-4000 to be competitive. Working as an RN will help me get those hours and I've read around this post how the clinicals in nursing prepare you well for PA clinicals. When I get my associates in nursing I could transfer and finish my BSN in nursing in my state name university, and then after that apply to PA school. I'll have the pre req classes completed and a sufficient amount of patient contact hours. Or instead of finishing my BSN, I can transfer into the junior year of the Pre-Pa major at that university. Finish my bachelors in Pre-Pa while working as an RN and accumulating hours and then apply to PA school. My school also has an articulation agreement with one of the top PA schools in the country so if I transfer into that Pre-Pa major I'll be able to have that advantage of provisional acceptance. I'm getting my associates for free at my community college so I'm saving a lot of money.

Now the other path is going straight into Pre-Pa. This I feel like would prepare me the best for PA school classes, but getting quality patient contact hours will be difficult and in addition expensive. I would need to get certifications in CNA or EMT and that would cost around another $2k-$4k. And if I don't get into PA school then my bachelors will be completely useless and I would go into a second degree nursing program anyways. Also I am not willing to take a gap year so that isn't an option to get more hours.

Currently I'm leaning towards the Pre-Pa and going all in or nothing but whenever I feel myself choosing on option I realize that I'm having second thoughts and then start leaning toward the other. I'm currently on a sea-saw and any help would be very appreciated.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by givemethatdegree

[KuchiKopi]

I didn't even read the whole post cause I'm at work, sorry!! But just remember it's not often you can apply to PA school after nursing school. The sciences that most nursing schools teach do not meet the requirements since they are not at the science major level. I have a BSN and had to go back for the main prerequisites. Which seems to be the common thing among BSNs

Edited August 25, 2020 by Kirby219

[givemethatdegree]

4 minutes ago, Kirby219 said:

I didn't even read the whole post cause I'm at work, sorry!! But just remember it's not often you can apply to PA school after nursing school. The sciences that most nursing schools teach do not meet the requirements since they are not at the science major level. I have a BSN and had to go back for the main prerequisites. Which seems to be the common thing among BSNs

I would be able to get my pre-requisite classes along side my nursing associates. It takes out 2 birds with one stone so when I get my bachelors I'll already have all the pre-reqs finished.

[TheFatMan]

My opinion is, if you can get into an RN program that has courses that will work for PA programs, do that. Becoming an RN would make you a better PA and would you give you a huge leg up on PCE. Also, who knows, maybe you'll fall in love with being a nurse. A knew an ER nurse who only had an RN (no BSN) who made 6 figures. Also, a lot of hospitals would pay for you to get your BSN.

[DiggySRNA]

Having done both a Pre-PA track and a BSN, I would say the most efficient one to do will be BSN from the start. It is feasible to BSN + PA pre-requisites together. Even more so if you do ADN RN then bridge to RN-BSN (completely online) while adding 1-2 courses per semester for PA pre-requisites.

I worked a few low paying PCE jobs ($10-17/hr) while obtaining my BS in Exercise and Health Science degree for ~1.7K hrs and did not make it into PA school. Albeit, I only applied one cycle. 

I then pursued an ABSN and my earning potential has tripled. Had I done that first, I would've had a higher salary years ago and better experience which would have translated into a higher chance of PA school acceptance. 

That said, RN clinicals (I am assuming you mean as a student) will NOT translate into easier PA clinicals (the focus is greatly different). I gained much of my nursing knowledge from on the job  training and pursuing additional certifications. After a year of ER experience, I am able to anticipate certain work ups, medications, and results from said interventions, and how to respond if it did not fix the issue. RN experience though, will definitely make you a better and safer PA.

My confidence as a RN surpasses the confidence I had as a MA. I am able to intervene quickly and approach the providers better should I need another intervention to be done because the patient is not responding to what was done previously. The ability to decipher who is sick vs not sick is as clear as day now. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Diggy

[Guest mands]

 

3 hours ago, Diggy said:

Having done both a Pre-PA track and a BSN, I would say the most efficient one to do will be BSN from the start. It is feasible to BSN + PA pre-requisites together. Even more so if you do ADN RN then bridge to RN-BSN (completely online) while adding 1-2 courses per semester for PA pre-requisites.

I worked a few low paying PCE jobs ($10-17/hr) while obtaining my BS in Exercise and Health Science degree for ~1.7K hrs and did not make it into PA school. Albeit, I only applied one cycle. 

I then pursued an ABSN and my earning potential has tripled. Had I done that first, I would've had a higher salary years ago and better experience which would have translated into a higher chance of PA school acceptance. 

That said, RN clinicals (I am assuming you mean as a student) will NOT translate into easier PA clinicals (the focus is greatly different). I gained much of my nursing knowledge from on the job  training and pursuing additional certifications. After a year of ER experience, I am able to anticipate certain work ups, medications, and results from said interventions, and how to respond if it did not fix the issue. RN experience though, will definitely make you a better and safer PA.

My confidence as a RN surpasses the confidence I had as a MA. I am able to intervene quickly and approach the providers better should I need another intervention to be done because the patient is not responding to what was done previously. The ability to decipher who is sick vs not sick is as clear as day now. 

I will say, I REALLY liked this answer. It's definitely one of the most useful things i've yet to read off this site.

Given, i'm not anywhere near knowledgable as the other responders...  From what i've learned in this whole process is that the nursing model and medical model are so vastly different, that it'll feel a little deaf (??? for a lack of better words) to say in an interview setting that it would be helpful in any way....except make you a more understanding team member, better bedside manners, more procedural knowledge than other PA students.

However, I think that you're onto something. It's like a two birds with one stone situation with getting a RN degree. I do get concerned with how competitive that major is though. It would be hard to hold a solid GPA, in my opinion, especially if things are graded with a curve. 

If you need an idea for patient care though, some school will take emergency department scribing (what I did!). It's paid training and I really felt like I got to connect with PAs and learn about what their job was really like. I got a little bit of exposure to documenting medicines, procedure notes, and seeing a patient case from start to finish. I think that this is a great alternative to the expensive training of EMT or CNA  

[givemethatdegree]

1 hour ago, mands said:

 

I will say, I REALLY liked this answer. It's definitely one of the most useful things i've yet to read off this site.

Given, i'm not anywhere near knowledgable as the other responders...  From what i've learned in this whole process is that the nursing model and medical model are so vastly different, that it'll feel a little deaf (??? for a lack of better words) to say in an interview setting that it would be helpful in any way....except make you a more understanding team member, better bedside manners, more procedural knowledge than other PA students.

However, I think that you're onto something. It's like a two birds with one stone situation with getting a RN degree. I do get concerned with how competitive that major is though. It would be hard to hold a solid GPA, in my opinion, especially if things are graded with a curve. 

If you need an idea for patient care though, some school will take emergency department scribing (what I did!). It's paid training and I really felt like I got to connect with PAs and learn about what their job was really like. I got a little bit of exposure to documenting medicines, procedure notes, and seeing a patient case from start to finish. I think that this is a great alternative to the expensive training of EMT or CNA  

Yea one of my friends introduced me to the idea of being a scribe but I was still skeptical because I wasn't sure if I would be satisfied with the amount of hours I obtained from that. As I also said I wasn't looking to take a gap year, I was looking to try and get in the first cycle so I wanted to have as strong of an application as I could. 

Also CNA and EMT certifications in my state are pretty expensive, there aren't any free programs near me. I called every place I found online. So I wasn't also for the idea of trying to pay extra for a CNA certificate when I could just start out as a nurse and get an RN for free.

So what do you think about the idea of becoming an RN first to get those hours while finishing my bachelors, and then applying to PA school?

It is taking out 2 birds with 1 stone, securing a back up plan and quality PCE with the nursing degree as well as finishing my pre reqs for PA school.

Edited August 26, 2020 by givemethatdegree

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

4 hours ago, Diggy said:

Having done both a Pre-PA track and a BSN, I would say the most efficient one to do will be BSN from the start. It is feasible to BSN + PA pre-requisites together. Even more so if you do ADN RN then bridge to RN-BSN (completely online) while adding 1-2 courses per semester for PA pre-requisites.

I worked a few low paying PCE jobs ($10-17/hr) while obtaining my BS in Exercise and Health Science degree for ~1.7K hrs and did not make it into PA school. Albeit, I only applied one cycle. 

I then pursued an ABSN and my earning potential has tripled. Had I done that first, I would've had a higher salary years ago and better experience which would have translated into a higher chance of PA school acceptance. 

That said, RN clinicals (I am assuming you mean as a student) will NOT translate into easier PA clinicals (the focus is greatly different). I gained much of my nursing knowledge from on the job  training and pursuing additional certifications. After a year of ER experience, I am able to anticipate certain work ups, medications, and results from said interventions, and how to respond if it did not fix the issue. RN experience though, will definitely make you a better and safer PA.

My confidence as a RN surpasses the confidence I had as a MA. I am able to intervene quickly and approach the providers better should I need another intervention to be done because the patient is not responding to what was done previously. The ability to decipher who is sick vs not sick is as clear as day now. 

Diggy said all I was going to say. I went BSN -> PA (with a detour in CRNA school). I've never regretted it. The experience in the ICU made me a much better clinician, but @diggy is right that nursing school itself will do little to prepare you for PA school or acting as a clinician. 

[givemethatdegree]

25 minutes ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

Diggy said all I was going to say. I went BSN -> PA (with a detour in CRNA school). I've never regretted it. The experience in the ICU made me a much better clinician, but @diggy is right that nursing school itself will do little to prepare you for PA school or acting as a clinician. 

Thank you for sharing your journey! It's really motivating to hear. If I do go BSN -> PA, what do you think I can do to get that extra preparation for PA school that nursing wont give me?

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

9 minutes ago, givemethatdegree said:

Thank you for sharing your journey! It's really motivating to hear. If I do go BSN -> PA, what do you think I can do to get that extra preparation for PA school that nursing wont give me?

RN experience will help. Our point was nursing school won’t give you much of anything. There’s little that prepares you being the person writing orders except doing it.

[ohiovolffemtp]

There are at least 2 different aspects that nursing won't give you:

1. Science pre-reqs: you'll need the majors/pre-med level science courses: 1 year of biology with a lab, 1 year of A&P with a lab, 1 year of chem with lab, 1 year of organic chemistry with lab, micro with lab, genetics with lab, sometimes pathophysiology, sometimes biochemistry.
2. "medical exposure & decision making" - this is highly dependent upon the area of nursing actually practiced.  In many cases, nursing aren't given a lot of decision making authority.  Paramedics often have more independence within the scope of their protocols.  The key is the actual experience obtained.

[givemethatdegree]

40 minutes ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

RN experience will help. Our point was nursing school won’t give you much of anything. There’s little that prepares you being the person writing orders except doing it.

Yes I was hoping to have the majority of my patient contact hours come from working as an RN during my bachelors course. 

[givemethatdegree]

46 minutes ago, ohiovolffemtp said:

There are at least 2 different aspects that nursing won't give you:

1. Science pre-reqs: you'll need the majors/pre-med level science courses: 1 year of biology with a lab, 1 year of A&P with a lab, 1 year of chem with lab, 1 year of organic chemistry with lab, micro with lab, genetics with lab, sometimes pathophysiology, sometimes biochemistry.
2. "medical exposure & decision making" - this is highly dependent upon the area of nursing actually practiced.  In many cases, nursing aren't given a lot of decision making authority.  Paramedics often have more independence within the scope of their protocols.  The key is the actual experience obtained.

I have the science pre-reqs for the major listed down and was hoping to take it along side my nursing associate classes. Even better all of the science pre-reqs for the major will fulfill PA school pre-requisites as well. So if I can do that then thats more like 3 birds with 1 stone. Getting my nursing license, getting my pre-reqs for the pre-pa major, and getting my pre-reqs for PA school.

And what you said about paramedics is very interesting. I might even try and obtain a EMT license after I become an RN. The money I'll get working as RN will definitely cover it and I'm getting patient contact hours too. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by givemethatdegree

[DiggySRNA]

38 minutes ago, givemethatdegree said:

And what you said about paramedics is very interesting. I might even try and obtain a EMT license after I become an RN. The money I'll get working as RN will definitely cover it and I'm getting patient contact hours too. 

What is your goal with getting your EMT after RN? The scope of an EMT-B (basic) is below that of a RN. You wouldn't be doing your self due diligence working backwards. However, Paramedic is on par with that of RN (with intubations being the exception). 

If salary is of no concern you might as well do Paramedic from the start then find a Paramedic to RN bridge instead of going RN to EMT-B. It'll be longer education and training wise but there is no point going from RN to EMT-B...to Medic.

EMT-Bs in Philadelphia can't do much. I can't count the amount of time's we have altered patients come in and I ask for last blood sugar and they state "we are basics, we cannot check that".

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Diggy

[KuchiKopi]

4 hours ago, Diggy said:

What is your goal with getting your EMT after RN? The scope of an EMT-B (basic) is below that of a RN. You wouldn't be doing your self due diligence working backwards. However, Paramedic is on par with that of RN (with intubations being the exception). 

If salary is of no concern you might as well do Paramedic from the start then find a Paramedic to RN bridge instead of going RN to EMT-B. It'll be longer education and training wise but there is no point going from RN to EMT-B...to Medic.

EMT-Bs in Philadelphia can't do much. I can't count the amount of time's we have altered patients come in and I ask for last blood sugar and they state "we are basics, we cannot check that".

 

I had basics in philly yesterday put someone on oxygen but when asked what their sats were they literally said "we're basics and can't do that"

All these answers are good! After being an emergency and travel nurse for years. I feel the exposure to different patient populations, hospitals, clinicians, and everything else will help me a lot when going (hopefully) into PA school. Yeah it wont really help with being medical provider in the clinical setting, but my confidence is up speaking to patients and especially people in positions above me, getting in and doing procedures, asking questions, and many other things. I do not regret my ED EN experience prior to PA school.

But honestly If I was a floor nurse or anything but ED or ICU then I would feel less prepared. The ED and ICU teaches alot

 Now even though I'm "just a nurse" I do now have an understanding of alot of procedures, what labs to expect to draw, or what might be off. I have a good idea of why that person's CK, lactate, or BNP is elevated even though I'm lacking in formal education on pathophysiology of it. The doctors I work with will generally more than happily discuss or explain things. Yes this may not help in PA school but it is a start that I am happy to have.  just my 2 cents!

Edited August 26, 2020 by Kirby219

[givemethatdegree]

9 hours ago, Diggy said:

What is your goal with getting your EMT after RN? The scope of an EMT-B (basic) is below that of a RN. You wouldn't be doing your self due diligence working backwards. However, Paramedic is on par with that of RN (with intubations being the exception). 

If salary is of no concern you might as well do Paramedic from the start then find a Paramedic to RN bridge instead of going RN to EMT-B. It'll be longer education and training wise but there is no point going from RN to EMT-B...to Medic.

EMT-Bs in Philadelphia can't do much. I can't count the amount of time's we have altered patients come in and I ask for last blood sugar and they state "we are basics, we cannot check that".

 

Ah okay, I just didn't want to limit myself to only one healthcare setting and getting all my hours from RN experience. Yes, I wanted the majority of my hours to come from there but I also wanted a diverse healthcare experience, I feel like that would allow me to learn a lot more than just being an RN. 

[TheFatMan]

4 hours ago, givemethatdegree said:

Ah okay, I just didn't want to limit myself to only one healthcare setting and getting all my hours from RN experience. Yes, I wanted the majority of my hours to come from there but I also wanted a diverse healthcare experience, I feel like that would allow me to learn a lot more than just being an RN. 

I wouldn't try to overdo it. Having good experience as an RN is plenty, and will make you much more desirable than the majority of applicants. Pick one thing and stick to it. Use the rest of your energy on having a competitive GPA. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by TheFatMan

[DiggySRNA]

1 hour ago, givemethatdegree said:

Ah okay, I just didn't want to limit myself to only one healthcare setting and getting all my hours from RN experience. Yes, I wanted the majority of my hours to come from there but I also wanted a diverse healthcare experience, I feel like that would allow me to learn a lot more than just being an RN. 

Quality over quantity my friend! Focus your energy on RN experience if that is where you are headed. 

Best of luck. 

[DiggySRNA]

7 hours ago, Kirby219 said:

I had basics in philly yesterday put someone on oxygen but when asked what their sats were they literally said "we're basics and can't do that"

All these answers are good! After being an emergency and travel nurse for years. I feel the exposure to different patient populations, hospitals, clinicians, and everything else will help me a lot when going (hopefully) into PA school. Yeah it wont really help with being medical provider in the clinical setting, but my confidence is up speaking to patients and especially people in positions above me, getting in and doing procedures, asking questions, and many other things. I do not regret my ED EN experience prior to PA school.

But honestly If I was a floor nurse or anything but ED or ICU then I would feel less prepared. The ED and ICU teaches alot

 Now even though I'm "just a nurse" I do now have an understanding of alot of procedures, what labs to expect to draw, or what might be off. I have a good idea of why that person's CK, lactate, or BNP is elevated even though I'm lacking in formal education on pathophysiology of it. The doctors I work with will generally more than happily discuss or explain things. Yes this may not help in PA school but it is a start that I am happy to have.  just my 2 cents!

My thoughts exactly, the autonomy in the ER has served me well. I don't think I'd be as level headed or confident as a future provider had I not start out in the ER as compared to starting out in the inpatient setting.

For example, 2 days ago our volume was so high it was taking a bit for the providers to evaluate patients at the bedside and I initiated the workup and imaging for a patient who was clearly in CHF. After about 15 mins of still waiting I went to the provider and said this is what is happening, can I get this guy on a Bipap before he crashes on us? He came to the bedside and confirmed it, prescribed the meds, and he was able to move on to the next patient. 

[EMEDPA]

21 hours ago, givemethatdegree said:

I would be able to get my pre-requisite classes along side my nursing associates. It takes out 2 birds with one stone so when I get my bachelors I'll already have all the pre-reqs finished.

Go with this plan. Having the RN sets you apart from all the CNAs, medical assistants , and scribes applying to PA school these days. Best prep for PA school has always been medic, rn, or rt.

[EMEDPA]

47 minutes ago, TheFatMan said:

I wouldn't try to overdo it. Having good experience as an RN is plenty, and will be much more helpful/beneficial than the majority of applicants. Pick one thing and stick to it. Use the rest of your energy on having a competitive GPA. 

This. And by the way, Your screen name is great. Wish I had thought of it.

[TheFatMan]

2 hours ago, EMEDPA said:

This. And by the way, Your screen name is great. Wish I had thought of it.

I'm just glad someone gets the reference! 

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

11 hours ago, TheFatMan said:

I'm just glad someone gets the reference! 

Are you really a clinician if you haven’t read house of god? *raises ED gurney to ortho height*

[TheFatMan]

4 hours ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

Are you really a clinician if you haven’t read house of god? *raises ED gurney to ortho height*

 I wonder if anyone will claim Grenade Room Dubler?

Also, LT, is that Mark Greene in your pic?

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by TheFatMan

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

6 hours ago, TheFatMan said:

 I wonder if anyone will claim Grenade Room Dubler?

Also, LT, is that Mark Greene in your pic?