PAstudentCanada Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63689 some attacks on PAs there for those interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAstudentCanada Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63689 some attacks on PAs there for those interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 What is that site? sdn 2.0??? Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 What is that site? sdn 2.0??? Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted June 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2012 i though canadians were polite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted June 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2012 i though canadians were polite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kargiver Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 As with all things, it is one or two bad apples who spoil it for the rest. They are wannabes who are misinformed about the breadth of scope of what PAs really do. When they get out of diapers and actually work with PAs, they will figure it out... Don't sweat it, G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kargiver Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 As with all things, it is one or two bad apples who spoil it for the rest. They are wannabes who are misinformed about the breadth of scope of what PAs really do. When they get out of diapers and actually work with PAs, they will figure it out... Don't sweat it, G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beorp Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Obviously it just takes a few vocal people on forums to make things go downhill fast. Whether it is even worth engaging with them is a difficult question. I certainly wouldn't want to spend my time on it, but I can understand you not wanting their claims to be left online for others to find without other views also being shared. Trying to read the thread from a somewhat "neutral observer" perspective, there are obviously a bunch of people chiming in who do not care to learn about the PA profession. You'll probably never win with them. Luckily, there did seem to be a couple who appreciated your clarifications. The other thing I would say is that I wonder whether focusing more on the "average" PA than the spectacular might be something that rubs some of them the wrong way. Specifically, I'm thinking of the psychiatry preceptor story and the mention of PAs performing surgery. I think we would both agree that most PAs in EM are not mentors of their attending physicians and most gen surg PAs are not doing appendectomies solo. I don't question the validity of your statements, but they aren't typical situations. I don't mean to criticize your approach; you're certainly doing more to advocate for PAs on that forum than I am! I just wonder whether it would be more helpful and accepted by these people to promote the more mainstream PA role. That way no argument can be made about how PAs are contributing to health care in Canada and other aspects of how exactly the PA profession will mature in Canada can take place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beorp Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Obviously it just takes a few vocal people on forums to make things go downhill fast. Whether it is even worth engaging with them is a difficult question. I certainly wouldn't want to spend my time on it, but I can understand you not wanting their claims to be left online for others to find without other views also being shared. Trying to read the thread from a somewhat "neutral observer" perspective, there are obviously a bunch of people chiming in who do not care to learn about the PA profession. You'll probably never win with them. Luckily, there did seem to be a couple who appreciated your clarifications. The other thing I would say is that I wonder whether focusing more on the "average" PA than the spectacular might be something that rubs some of them the wrong way. Specifically, I'm thinking of the psychiatry preceptor story and the mention of PAs performing surgery. I think we would both agree that most PAs in EM are not mentors of their attending physicians and most gen surg PAs are not doing appendectomies solo. I don't question the validity of your statements, but they aren't typical situations. I don't mean to criticize your approach; you're certainly doing more to advocate for PAs on that forum than I am! I just wonder whether it would be more helpful and accepted by these people to promote the more mainstream PA role. That way no argument can be made about how PAs are contributing to health care in Canada and other aspects of how exactly the PA profession will mature in Canada can take place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAstudentCanada Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Yah, I know that the majority of PAs don't do appys. He specifically, in a sarcastic tone, asked about that so I replied. as you can see, I will no longer be replying to that individual. Obviously it just takes a few vocal people on forums to make things go downhill fast. Whether it is even worth engaging with them is a difficult question. I certainly wouldn't want to spend my time on it, but I can understand you not wanting their claims to be left online for others to find without other views also being shared. Trying to read the thread from a somewhat "neutral observer" perspective, there are obviously a bunch of people chiming in who do not care to learn about the PA profession. You'll probably never win with them. Luckily, there did seem to be a couple who appreciated your clarifications. The other thing I would say is that I wonder whether focusing more on the "average" PA than the spectacular might be something that rubs some of them the wrong way. Specifically, I'm thinking of the psychiatry preceptor story and the mention of PAs performing surgery. I think we would both agree that most PAs in EM are not mentors of their attending physicians and most gen surg PAs are not doing appendectomies solo. I don't question the validity of your statements, but they aren't typical situations. I don't mean to criticize your approach; you're certainly doing more to advocate for PAs on that forum than I am! I just wonder whether it would be more helpful and accepted by these people to promote the more mainstream PA role. That way no argument can be made about how PAs are contributing to health care in Canada and other aspects of how exactly the PA profession will mature in Canada can take place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAstudentCanada Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Yah, I know that the majority of PAs don't do appys. He specifically, in a sarcastic tone, asked about that so I replied. as you can see, I will no longer be replying to that individual. Obviously it just takes a few vocal people on forums to make things go downhill fast. Whether it is even worth engaging with them is a difficult question. I certainly wouldn't want to spend my time on it, but I can understand you not wanting their claims to be left online for others to find without other views also being shared. Trying to read the thread from a somewhat "neutral observer" perspective, there are obviously a bunch of people chiming in who do not care to learn about the PA profession. You'll probably never win with them. Luckily, there did seem to be a couple who appreciated your clarifications. The other thing I would say is that I wonder whether focusing more on the "average" PA than the spectacular might be something that rubs some of them the wrong way. Specifically, I'm thinking of the psychiatry preceptor story and the mention of PAs performing surgery. I think we would both agree that most PAs in EM are not mentors of their attending physicians and most gen surg PAs are not doing appendectomies solo. I don't question the validity of your statements, but they aren't typical situations. I don't mean to criticize your approach; you're certainly doing more to advocate for PAs on that forum than I am! I just wonder whether it would be more helpful and accepted by these people to promote the more mainstream PA role. That way no argument can be made about how PAs are contributing to health care in Canada and other aspects of how exactly the PA profession will mature in Canada can take place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted June 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2012 Ive never known any PAs to do appies. I know one who performed emergency surgery on a observation ship to the Antarctic. Don't know what kind though. I also know of three instances of independent duty corpsman doing emergency appies when evacuation was impossible. Still, none performing them other than the most dire of circumstances. Would be nice though to be able to perform the same surgeries as well trained FP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted June 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2012 Ive never known any PAs to do appies. I know one who performed emergency surgery on a observation ship to the Antarctic. Don't know what kind though. I also know of three instances of independent duty corpsman doing emergency appies when evacuation was impossible. Still, none performing them other than the most dire of circumstances. Would be nice though to be able to perform the same surgeries as well trained FP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted June 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2012 Ive never known any PAs to do appies. I know one who performed emergency surgery on a observation ship to the Antarctic. Don't know what kind though. I also know of three instances of independent duty corpsman doing emergency appies when evacuation was impossible. Still, none performing them other than the most dire of circumstances. Would be nice though to be able to perform the same surgeries as well trained FP. I know a few ortho pa's who do quite a bit of ortho surgery. when they work with the surgeon doing a b/l procedure the doc does one side, the pa does the other at the same time. I know a few plastic surgery pa's who do the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted June 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2012 Ive never known any PAs to do appies. I know one who performed emergency surgery on a observation ship to the Antarctic. Don't know what kind though. I also know of three instances of independent duty corpsman doing emergency appies when evacuation was impossible. Still, none performing them other than the most dire of circumstances. Would be nice though to be able to perform the same surgeries as well trained FP. I know a few ortho pa's who do quite a bit of ortho surgery. when they work with the surgeon doing a b/l procedure the doc does one side, the pa does the other at the same time. I know a few plastic surgery pa's who do the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Whoever said/suggested PAs are "performing surgery" is hurting the case for PA practice. It's just not true in a literal or suggestive sense. We do co-operate, and do things as EMED suggested, but the general idea of performing surgery or being a surgeon is far too rooted in physician practice. We should avoid trying to step to deep into that realm. It makes PAs sound like the stereotype that some docs carry- that we are cowboys, recklessly practicing out of scope. Almost every surgical PA I know/have worked with respects and understands their role in the practice. We are good at what we do and can (with experience) function at or above the level of a spceialty fellow. But we should still show deference to all the baggage that goes along with being a surgeon (decision making, liability, training, etc) We should be grounded in what we do and the fact that we do it well. The fact that one of those posting said "I've never worked with a PA" and then proceeded to philosophize about them says it all about the quality of that discussion. PAs are too new a creature in Canada for folks up there to have an informed opinion unless they've taken the time to study the US model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Whoever said/suggested PAs are "performing surgery" is hurting the case for PA practice. It's just not true in a literal or suggestive sense. We do co-operate, and do things as EMED suggested, but the general idea of performing surgery or being a surgeon is far too rooted in physician practice. We should avoid trying to step to deep into that realm. It makes PAs sound like the stereotype that some docs carry- that we are cowboys, recklessly practicing out of scope. Almost every surgical PA I know/have worked with respects and understands their role in the practice. We are good at what we do and can (with experience) function at or above the level of a spceialty fellow. But we should still show deference to all the baggage that goes along with being a surgeon (decision making, liability, training, etc) We should be grounded in what we do and the fact that we do it well. The fact that one of those posting said "I've never worked with a PA" and then proceeded to philosophize about them says it all about the quality of that discussion. PAs are too new a creature in Canada for folks up there to have an informed opinion unless they've taken the time to study the US model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAstudentCanada Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 I am the one who posted about PAs performing surgery. I know several PAs that do indeed perform surgery. I'm not sure I understand why telling the truth is harmful. Whoever said/suggested PAs are "performing surgery" is hurting the case for PA practice. It's just not true in a literal or suggestive sense. We do co-operate, and do things as EMED suggested, but the general idea of performing surgery or being a surgeon is far too rooted in physician practice. We should avoid trying to step to deep into that realm. It makes PAs sound like the stereotype that some docs carry- that we are cowboys, recklessly practicing out of scope. Almost every surgical PA I know/have worked with respects and understands their role in the practice. We are good at what we do and can (with experience) function at or above the level of a spceialty fellow. But we should still show deference to all the baggage that goes along with being a surgeon (decision making, liability, training, etc) We should be grounded in what we do and the fact that we do it well. The fact that one of those posting said "I've never worked with a PA" and then proceeded to philosophize about them says it all about the quality of that discussion. PAs are too new a creature in Canada for folks up there to have an informed opinion unless they've taken the time to study the US model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAstudentCanada Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 I am the one who posted about PAs performing surgery. I know several PAs that do indeed perform surgery. I'm not sure I understand why telling the truth is harmful. Whoever said/suggested PAs are "performing surgery" is hurting the case for PA practice. It's just not true in a literal or suggestive sense. We do co-operate, and do things as EMED suggested, but the general idea of performing surgery or being a surgeon is far too rooted in physician practice. We should avoid trying to step to deep into that realm. It makes PAs sound like the stereotype that some docs carry- that we are cowboys, recklessly practicing out of scope. Almost every surgical PA I know/have worked with respects and understands their role in the practice. We are good at what we do and can (with experience) function at or above the level of a spceialty fellow. But we should still show deference to all the baggage that goes along with being a surgeon (decision making, liability, training, etc) We should be grounded in what we do and the fact that we do it well. The fact that one of those posting said "I've never worked with a PA" and then proceeded to philosophize about them says it all about the quality of that discussion. PAs are too new a creature in Canada for folks up there to have an informed opinion unless they've taken the time to study the US model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted June 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2012 I am the one who posted about PAs performing surgery. I know several PAs that do indeed perform surgery. I'm not sure I understand why telling the truth is harmful. I'm going to ask for a reference on that. There are no PAs performing major surgery requiring anesthesia (like appies) without direct supervision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted June 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2012 I am the one who posted about PAs performing surgery. I know several PAs that do indeed perform surgery. I'm not sure I understand why telling the truth is harmful. I'm going to ask for a reference on that. There are no PAs performing major surgery requiring anesthesia (like appies) without direct supervision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAstudentCanada Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 I'm going to ask for a reference on that. There are no PAs performing major surgery requiring anesthesia (like appies) without direct supervision. They do have direct supervision. The surgeon is on-site with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAstudentCanada Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 I'm going to ask for a reference on that. There are no PAs performing major surgery requiring anesthesia (like appies) without direct supervision. They do have direct supervision. The surgeon is on-site with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted June 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2012 Direct means in the room and doing nothing that would prevent them from being immediately and instantly available if complications arise. If that is the case, what is the benefit of the PA? It would only happen as a learning experience I imagine or in a bilateral case. Appies are, of course, not bilateral. So again, what is the benefit of the PA doing it? ETA: I do many PAs that open and close to speed up the surgery. By law, the surgeon must be present for and major portion of surgery (basically anything opening and closing). A heart surgeon at a major hospital I worked at did this. The PA and team would basically get everything open and ready. All the surgeon would do is the cut the sternum, go on and off pump, and the bypass anastomosis. Needless to say he would knock out several CABGs in a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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