MedicinePower Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 As a soon-to-be PA hopefully going into emergency medicine I've been looking at various ED educational programs/boot camps, residencies, and the various certifications available. This all leads me to my question: does a general EM certification other than the CAQ exist? I ask as the CAQ seems to have some onerous requirements which might take a while to fulfill. Thank you. Edit: Is this program beneficial at all? https://osteopathic.nova.edu/certificates/emergency-medicine-certificate.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSpectre Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 I think a post-graduate residency/fellowship is the best option to show proficiency to future employers. The CAQ seems like a good option, but it isn't made for new grads -- the requirements to sit for it means you have to have at least 3000 hours of EM experience as a PA (plus the CME and procedural requirements). This makes sense though since the CAQ is supposed to be an indicator of proficiency and experience in a given specialty -- it's not designed so that you can simply study and take the test without having the experience to back it up. The certificate program at Nova is something I hadn't heard of before, but I would be pretty skeptical about spending over $10,000 for it unless a residency is absolutely not an option. Would it be cheaper than the income lost by doing a residency? Yep. But will it prepare you for practice as well as a residency? Almost surely not. While the didactic portion is an important part of doing a residency, its definitely not the primary focus -- you could do CME for that part. The real strength of residencies/fellowships is that you are staffing patients with EM docs or EMPAs that can critique your approach to different issues, provide feedback in real time, and provide graduated responsibility as you become more competent. Additionally, you get off-service rotations and procedural skills training (and robust procedure logs) that you won't get from a certificate program or bootcamp. However, the Nova EM certificate may be a decent trade-off if you simply couldn't do a fellowship and got a job in EM as a new grad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted April 11, 2019 Author Share Posted April 11, 2019 1 hour ago, ProSpectre said: I think a post-graduate residency/fellowship is the best option to show proficiency to future employers. The CAQ seems like a good option, but it isn't made for new grads -- the requirements to sit for it means you have to have at least 3000 hours of EM experience as a PA (plus the CME and procedural requirements). This makes sense though since the CAQ is supposed to be an indicator of proficiency and experience in a given specialty -- it's not designed so that you can simply study and take the test without having the experience to back it up. The certificate program at Nova is something I hadn't heard of before, but I would be pretty skeptical about spending over $10,000 for it unless a residency is absolutely not an option. Would it be cheaper than the income lost by doing a residency? Yep. But will it prepare you for practice as well as a residency? Almost surely not. While the didactic portion is an important part of doing a residency, its definitely not the primary focus -- you could do CME for that part. The real strength of residencies/fellowships is that you are staffing patients with EM docs or EMPAs that can critique your approach to different issues, provide feedback in real time, and provide graduated responsibility as you become more competent. Additionally, you get off-service rotations and procedural skills training (and robust procedure logs) that you won't get from a certificate program or bootcamp. However, the Nova EM certificate may be a decent trade-off if you simply couldn't do a fellowship and got a job in EM as a new grad. I agree with all of this. I have been applying to residencies/fellowships but it seems my school graduates us a few months later than others which means I'll miss the July start and also not having taken the PANCE by that point. It's frustrating to need to wait a whole year to apply to/start residencies by which point I might be in a good job position with good money and good training and upward mobility. I hope and plan to do the EM boot camp courses (pretty much all of them) as well as all the various certifications (ACLS, PALS, ATLS, AMLS, etc etc). The Nova course looks interesting but they haven't graduated any classes yet so there isn't any data on how helpful it has been. Might you have other advice in the scenario where I'm not able to do a residency yet still plan on the boot camp + certs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatChecko Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 I'm a huge fan of education and gaining knowledge, but I caution you on overdoing it. If you have a job lined up that wants certain things, great. However, spending a bunch money on certs, just to get certs may not be the best way forward. When I started in EM, I was sent to the Advanced Bootcamp before starting and they did a fair amount of training in the first year. One of the challenges I had was that I learned a ton at the bootcamp, but I did not have they ability to apply it actively. I felt that had I had some experience under my belt, I would have been able to assimilate the information much better. I still learned a ton and it definitely helped, don't get me wrong. The point here is that other than the required tickets, BLS/ACLS/PALS and a bootcamp course, I think you're going to hit a deminishing return pretty quickly with the additional classes. I feel you on the residency challenge. My program also graduated just late enough to make many of them difficult if not impossible to make happen. However, there are some that start in the fall and I did interview at two (Albany and Hopkins). Life took me elsewhere and didn't get into either, but I was geographically constrained and those where the two I could make work. In the end, it has worked out well. Would a residency helped with my procedural skills, yes. However, had I ended up in the same region, it wouldn't have changed my day-to-day much. That being said, I'm still a huge fan of EM residencies in general. Just my two cents... I appreciate your enthusiasm, and have been exactly where you are right now. I wish you all the best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telemedic Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 19 hours ago, MedicinePower said: Might you have other advice in the scenario where I'm not able to do a residency yet still plan on the boot camp + certs? Join SEMPA and network at SEMPA 360. If you're really interested in a residency, you'll have the chance to meet multiple program directors at SEMPA 360. sempa.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiovolffemtp Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 There is some disagreement on this, but last year at SEMPA I asked all the recruiters how much they valued the CAQ and not a single one even knew what the CAQ was. They did recognize the "merit badge" courses like ACLS, PALS, & BLS. The ones which seemed to differentiate folks were ATLS and especially ultrasound. Talk to the recruiters - see what's available. Often, they'll know of positions that aren't advertised on web sites. You just need to find a decent 1st job where you'll learn. After 3-5 years you're considered an experienced EM PA and the job market improves significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatChecko Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 3 hours ago, ohiovolffemtp said: There is some disagreement on this, but last year at SEMPA I asked all the recruiters how much they valued the CAQ and not a single one even knew what the CAQ was. They did recognize the "merit badge" courses like ACLS, PALS, & BLS. The ones which seemed to differentiate folks were ATLS and especially ultrasound. Talk to the recruiters - see what's available. Often, they'll know of positions that aren't advertised on web sites. You just need to find a decent 1st job where you'll learn. After 3-5 years you're considered an experienced EM PA and the job market improves significantly. This. A trip to SEMPA to speak with recruiters directly is probably the best way to break into EM if you are flexible on location. Im working through the CAQ right now. I see it more of a personal challenge than anything else. I've learned a few things while studying and it might serve me in the future. Short of reimbursement from my employer, I don't see it affecting my day to day EM life very much. That being said, it is about experience and certs to make it through the recruiter filter. Many don't know much about medicine and "merit badges" sometimes go a long way to get their attention. Thus, why some, including myself, see the CAQ as valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 I have the opportunity to take ATLS in about 6 weeks through a site I've rotated at but I have to pay for it. This will be right when I graduate and am hoping to take the PANCE about 2 weeks later. Do you think it's "worth it" to go for ATLS so early in the game? The job market around me is very tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatChecko Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 8 hours ago, MedicinePower said: I have the opportunity to take ATLS in about 6 weeks through a site I've rotated at but I have to pay for it. This will be right when I graduate and am hoping to take the PANCE about 2 weeks later. Do you think it's "worth it" to go for ATLS so early in the game? The job market around me is very tight. IMO Yes. It has been challenging for me to find a course that I can fit into my schedule and that is accepting outside students. While you might not use the skills every day (it's nothing ground breaking BTW), it will be easier to find a 1 day renewal in the future if you continue in EM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetMeOuttaThisMess Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 IMO, re: PANCE, PANRE; either you know it or you don't. Take the ATLS if you wish to head toward the EM route. Unless things have changed, back in the stone age, you didn't get credit for the certification as a PA (you audited the course); only CME credit for having taken the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatChecko Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 You should get credit these days. Two of my classmates took the course while on rotation, not even as full PA-C, and they received the cert. I suppose it's a good idea to double check with the course provider... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiovolffemtp Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 ATLS has a "physician extender" certification. With it I was able to get credentialed to see all but level 1 trauma activations at my last FT position at a level 3 trauma center. My current employer requires it. Frankly, other than the procedures and imaging, it's exactly the same thought process I was taught as a medic years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 Update: The training coordinator said I am allowed to audit ATLS and optionally take the exam at the end. My other option would be to simply observe. I don't exactly understand how auditing differs from observation. Anyone know? Also, in the event I audit and successfully pass the written exam what practical difference does this make, if any? Thank you one and all for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetMeOuttaThisMess Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 When I audited back in the 90’s I was allowed to participate in the clinical skills portion of the course. Poor goat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MediMike Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Audit traditionally means you get to take and participate in the course without receiving credit for your participation. As in no certificate most likely. In other words, you get the knowledge and skills, but they don't want anyone to know that you were able to grasp the vast intricacies of ATLS as a simple country PA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 2 hours ago, MediMike said: Audit traditionally means you get to take and participate in the course without receiving credit for your participation. As in no certificate most likely. In other words, you get the knowledge and skills, but they don't want anyone to know that you were able to grasp the vast intricacies of ATLS as a simple country PA... I'll check the ATLS website for more info. I think I generally understand the difference between observe (no CEU, no certificate of completion) and audio (maybe CEU, certificate of completion), but what happens when you audit and take/pass the exam? Edit: Course coordinator says no difference in the certificate of completion if one audits and takes the exam or not. I'll likely take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiovolffemtp Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 As a PA you are NOT limited to auditing the ATLS class. You can get the same "physician extender" certification I got. You do the full class, all the procedures, and take the written and practical test at the end and have to pass them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted May 1, 2019 Author Share Posted May 1, 2019 Just now, ohiovolffemtp said: As a PA you are NOT limited to auditing the ATLS class. You can get the same "physician extender" certification I got. You do the full class, all the procedures, and take the written and practical test at the end and have to pass them. This is good to know. It seems this training institute will only let me audit (or observe) as I am not yet a PA. Since I am an EMT they will let me sign up under that certification and let me audit but I have to wait until I am an actual PA do the "physician extender" version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiovolffemtp Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 Yes, that's what I had to do when I took the class as a paramedic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirdDogPA Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 I was able to take ATLS as a PA student and get my certificate. I just wasn’t eligible for CME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetMeOuttaThisMess Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 11 hours ago, BirdDogPA said: I was able to take ATLS as a PA student and get my certificate. I just wasn’t eligible for CME. Because you were a student. You don't need CME until you've passed PANCE. Any medical education qualifies for some form of CME. It's just a matter of I or II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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