andersenpa Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 http://www.braintrack.com/college-and-work-news/articles/growing-doctor-shortage-drives-need-for-physician-assistants-12030701 Numbers from the article worth noting: The number of certified physician assistants has skyrocketed 75 percent in the past eight years, from 48,000 to 84,000, according to the National Commission on Certification of Physician Assistants. Schools are also graduating more physician assistants than ever before--nearly 6,000 in 2010, compared with 4,202 a decade earlier, reports the PAEA. Currently 159 schools operate accredited PA programs, with close to another 40 pursuing development. Healthcare work experience--civilian or military--is a plus when applying to PA school, says PAEA's Brenneman. Currently, 50 percent of schools require that applicants have this experience, and another 39 percent prefer it. "With competition to get into PA schools becoming more difficult," he says, "this is often the line that helps programs decide between candidates." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Good to see 89% are still pro HCE on some level.... Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navyflyPAC Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 @Joelseff: As a student with no HCE myself, I'm wondering why I always see you on here preaching pro HCE for PA programs? Do you happen to know what the number of MD/DO admitted students with HCE is? Extremely low. Since physicians are more or less the top of the "food chain" and are considered the authority on knowledge base and decision making- perhaps you can find a spot in your heart for those new to the field (PA's). Somehow the green med student finds a way to make an excellent provider and most PA's do as well. As a matter of fact, it makes more sense for PA's to have no HCE then it does med students, as PA's benefit from the guidance of a physician overseeing the PA practice. It smacks of arrogance and elitism when you spout of making such comments. Just food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navyflyPAC Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 @Joelseff: As a student with no HCE myself, I'm wondering why I always see you on here preaching pro HCE for PA programs? Do you happen to know what the number of MD/DO admitted students with HCE is? Extremely low. Since physicians are more or less the top of the "food chain" and are considered the authority on knowledge base and decision making- perhaps you can find a spot in your heart for those new to the field (PA's). Somehow the green med student finds a way to make an excellent provider and most PA's do as well. As a matter of fact, it makes more sense for PA's to have no HCE then it does med students, as PA's benefit from the guidance of a physician overseeing the PA practice. It smacks of arrogance and elitism when you spout of making such comments. Just food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted March 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2012 medstudents have 7 years to learn medicine. pa's have 2. that is why prior experience is expected for pa's. pa's on rotation are expected to perform at a much higher level than 3rd yr medstudents. as a pa student preceptor for >15 years I can honestly say there is a difference between those with and without significant health care experience. sure, one can spend an entire rotation learning the basics of emergency medicine but if you only have 4-6 weeks and we are spending it on learning how to read an ekg or draw blood or start an IV you won't be doing any lp's or putting in central lines. those skills are for folks who already have the basics down..."oversight" in many practices is chart review. don't expect to be taught how to do your job after you graduate...sure on the job training is important but it can't be the foundation of your practice. day 1 at job 1 you need to be somewhat competent and safe. that same expectation is not made for medschool grads. they have to present every pt their first yr or 2 of residency. we don't. we are already licensed. they are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted March 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2012 medstudents have 7 years to learn medicine. pa's have 2. that is why prior experience is expected for pa's. pa's on rotation are expected to perform at a much higher level than 3rd yr medstudents. as a pa student preceptor for >15 years I can honestly say there is a difference between those with and without significant health care experience. sure, one can spend an entire rotation learning the basics of emergency medicine but if you only have 4-6 weeks and we are spending it on learning how to read an ekg or draw blood or start an IV you won't be doing any lp's or putting in central lines. those skills are for folks who already have the basics down..."oversight" in many practices is chart review. don't expect to be taught how to do your job after you graduate...sure on the job training is important but it can't be the foundation of your practice. day 1 at job 1 you need to be somewhat competent and safe. that same expectation is not made for medschool grads. they have to present every pt their first yr or 2 of residency. we don't. we are already licensed. they are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Emed pretty much elucidated the point. We PAs have a condensed education compared to the years our md/do counterparts. I heavily relied on prior hce in school and in practice. At my program i rotated with MS3 and MS4s at my school. Our fellows and attendings didn't care that i was a pa-s when i was pimped, i was pimped like everyone else. despite the fact that i had a disadvantage in didactics. I HAD to rely on lots of studying of course but also my years prior to pa school. The ms3s esp had a hard time due to their inexperience, esp at getting good hnps and forming clinical pictures. They had read about it but never saw "SICK" before. Im not saying that non hces wont make good pas, just that having hces makes you more prepared. I am sorry you found it elitist, don't mean to be. But our profession is built on condensed training to build upon an existing foundation. No vitriol intended. C'mon, im an ex squid... Cheers, Joe Sent from my VEGAn-TAB using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Emed pretty much elucidated the point. We PAs have a condensed education compared to the years our md/do counterparts. I heavily relied on prior hce in school and in practice. At my program i rotated with MS3 and MS4s at my school. Our fellows and attendings didn't care that i was a pa-s when i was pimped, i was pimped like everyone else. despite the fact that i had a disadvantage in didactics. I HAD to rely on lots of studying of course but also my years prior to pa school. The ms3s esp had a hard time due to their inexperience, esp at getting good hnps and forming clinical pictures. They had read about it but never saw "SICK" before. Im not saying that non hces wont make good pas, just that having hces makes you more prepared. I am sorry you found it elitist, don't mean to be. But our profession is built on condensed training to build upon an existing foundation. No vitriol intended. C'mon, im an ex squid... Cheers, Joe Sent from my VEGAn-TAB using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdahoPA Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I believe that students without HCE can become fine PAs. But let me ask you this. I was an army medic for 9 yrs. By your own admission you have no HCE. Which of us will have the harder time in labs? I have skills in basic exams, EKGs, labs, meds, giving IVs, immunizations, splinting, blah blah blah. So while I'm fine tuning my skill set to take it to a provider level, you're starting from the bottom. My prior experience is clearly a huge advantage for me. I've never met Joelseff, but I'm sure he believes PA school is difficult and would want people entering to have the best groundwork so that they may be successful. That's not elitist or arrogant; that's just common sense and looking out for the integrity of the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdahoPA Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I believe that students without HCE can become fine PAs. But let me ask you this. I was an army medic for 9 yrs. By your own admission you have no HCE. Which of us will have the harder time in labs? I have skills in basic exams, EKGs, labs, meds, giving IVs, immunizations, splinting, blah blah blah. So while I'm fine tuning my skill set to take it to a provider level, you're starting from the bottom. My prior experience is clearly a huge advantage for me. I've never met Joelseff, but I'm sure he believes PA school is difficult and would want people entering to have the best groundwork so that they may be successful. That's not elitist or arrogant; that's just common sense and looking out for the integrity of the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acozadd Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Oh look it's THIS thread again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acozadd Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Oh look it's THIS thread again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator True Anomaly Posted March 11, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 11, 2012 Oh look it's THIS thread again... I actually LOL'ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator True Anomaly Posted March 11, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 11, 2012 Oh look it's THIS thread again... I actually LOL'ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH_7.40 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 If you actually read a little about the history of PAs you would realize that the original PAs came from medics and Corpsman returning from the war. Elitist? Hardly. It's not our fault you chose the wrong rating when you came in. If you want an advanced medical degree without the HCE then be my guest, go to medical school. Don't take it out on us who paid our dues first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH_7.40 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 If you actually read a little about the history of PAs you would realize that the original PAs came from medics and Corpsman returning from the war. Elitist? Hardly. It's not our fault you chose the wrong rating when you came in. If you want an advanced medical degree without the HCE then be my guest, go to medical school. Don't take it out on us who paid our dues first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 Guys, settle down. What works for one does not apply to all. It's not elitist to think HCE is important; it IS dismissive to regard someone with little/no HCE as disadvantaged or (at worst) unfit for PA school. So to tell them "just go to med school" is, well, wrong. I had HCE. But- as a CNA/HHA. I had plenty of "patient contact hours". I worked w/ PAs and observed them while I worked, shadowed them after my shifts were over etc. Did I know how to do an H&P? No. Did I ever put in an IV before phlebotomy lab in PA school? No. Did I know how to read an ECG, X ray? Hardly. (the extent of my ECG was knowing what flutter waves look like. Big whoop.) Did I ever actually examine a pt? Nothing outside of basic VS and do you have a pulse/breath sounds. So I went to PA school with some exposure to how PAs, docs, nurses, health systems work. But I had (in my mind) very little “experience” that paid off during labs or clinicals. Now none of you (except maybe some people here who have done rotations or shadowing with me) know if I’m good or I suck. But I’ve gotten some decent success and autonomy. And I wasn’t a medic/RN/uber prePA stud prior to PA school. So I would hope that we don’t get too dogmatic about what is needed to be a good PA student. With all deference to the PA profession’s roots, we are now a COMPLETELY different provider with a COMPLETELY different educational system than we were in the late 60s. Modern PA education is set up to meet the needs of modern PA students, with a wide variety of experiences. And we’re doing a good job of creating competent providers, as evidenced by the 100% growth in our numbers over the 2000-2010 period... 40,000 to 80,000 PAs over 10 yrs. Let’s not become “PA Originalists” to spite a swath of smart students who will learn to become great PAs, just as good as the 4000+ hrs crowd...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 Guys, settle down. What works for one does not apply to all. It's not elitist to think HCE is important; it IS dismissive to regard someone with little/no HCE as disadvantaged or (at worst) unfit for PA school. So to tell them "just go to med school" is, well, wrong. I had HCE. But- as a CNA/HHA. I had plenty of "patient contact hours". I worked w/ PAs and observed them while I worked, shadowed them after my shifts were over etc. Did I know how to do an H&P? No. Did I ever put in an IV before phlebotomy lab in PA school? No. Did I know how to read an ECG, X ray? Hardly. (the extent of my ECG was knowing what flutter waves look like. Big whoop.) Did I ever actually examine a pt? Nothing outside of basic VS and do you have a pulse/breath sounds. So I went to PA school with some exposure to how PAs, docs, nurses, health systems work. But I had (in my mind) very little “experience” that paid off during labs or clinicals. Now none of you (except maybe some people here who have done rotations or shadowing with me) know if I’m good or I suck. But I’ve gotten some decent success and autonomy. And I wasn’t a medic/RN/uber prePA stud prior to PA school. So I would hope that we don’t get too dogmatic about what is needed to be a good PA student. With all deference to the PA profession’s roots, we are now a COMPLETELY different provider with a COMPLETELY different educational system than we were in the late 60s. Modern PA education is set up to meet the needs of modern PA students, with a wide variety of experiences. And we’re doing a good job of creating competent providers, as evidenced by the 100% growth in our numbers over the 2000-2010 period... 40,000 to 80,000 PAs over 10 yrs. Let’s not become “PA Originalists” to spite a swath of smart students who will learn to become great PAs, just as good as the 4000+ hrs crowd...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taotaox1 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 But....But.... how will we make self satisfied, snarky posts on the PA forum without having a group of people to hate? I swear, sometimes this forum reads a bit like SDN and its nursing paranoia when it comes to HCE. I am not saying there is no merit to HCE.. just that it turns into a witch hunt now and then. I just had a fantastic idea for an image macro. Photoshop...BRB Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taotaox1 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 But....But.... how will we make self satisfied, snarky posts on the PA forum without having a group of people to hate? I swear, sometimes this forum reads a bit like SDN and its nursing paranoia when it comes to HCE. I am not saying there is no merit to HCE.. just that it turns into a witch hunt now and then. I just had a fantastic idea for an image macro. Photoshop...BRB Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Speaking of witch hunt, there was a post in clinicician1 from sermo-think sdn on red bull and 3 rockstars. It was md/dos talkin smack about nps and pas. I only read some because, well, actually it made me sick. But majority of it cited that nps were better because they had exp b4 going to school and to paraphrase one doc: "pas can work at the slaughterhouse to figure out the head from the feet then 2 years of school and theyre pas..." Or something to that effect.... I know these arent docs we want to work with and there are DE nps too and face it these docs they were just hateful but it is a criticism that i have heard from other md colleagues. So HCE i think benefits the credibility of our profession also, at first glance at least, to the unknowing public. Our performance as PAs of course is the one that keeps it going. I come on here to opine. Sometimes it offends ppl, cant help that i guess, i still stand by recommending getting hce to anyone wanting to enter the field. As much as i recommend getting all As in the sci courses. I just *believe* that it is *better* prep. There i go opining again... Cheers. i was able to dl the transcript from sermo on pdf. If anyone wants a "pick me up" lol i cam pm it to u. Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Speaking of witch hunt, there was a post in clinicician1 from sermo-think sdn on red bull and 3 rockstars. It was md/dos talkin smack about nps and pas. I only read some because, well, actually it made me sick. But majority of it cited that nps were better because they had exp b4 going to school and to paraphrase one doc: "pas can work at the slaughterhouse to figure out the head from the feet then 2 years of school and theyre pas..." Or something to that effect.... I know these arent docs we want to work with and there are DE nps too and face it these docs they were just hateful but it is a criticism that i have heard from other md colleagues. So HCE i think benefits the credibility of our profession also, at first glance at least, to the unknowing public. Our performance as PAs of course is the one that keeps it going. I come on here to opine. Sometimes it offends ppl, cant help that i guess, i still stand by recommending getting hce to anyone wanting to enter the field. As much as i recommend getting all As in the sci courses. I just *believe* that it is *better* prep. There i go opining again... Cheers. i was able to dl the transcript from sermo on pdf. If anyone wants a "pick me up" lol i cam pm it to u. Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navyflyPAC Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Very well put Andersen. And btw ph_ whatever.....I didn't choose the wrong rating. I was a commissioned officer and aviator and was fortunate enough to accomplish two dreams (PA school being the second) and I've seen more combat then most of you "peace time" medics who have been PA's for 10 years acting like you just won a MOH. Spare me. . Additionally, I'm the #4 student in a class of about 40 at the 12th best PA school in the country so apparently some of the nurses and EMTs in my class just don't seem to be benefitting from all of this so valuable experience. Perhaps you should give people more of chance. They just might surprise you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navyflyPAC Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Very well put Andersen. And btw ph_ whatever.....I didn't choose the wrong rating. I was a commissioned officer and aviator and was fortunate enough to accomplish two dreams (PA school being the second) and I've seen more combat then most of you "peace time" medics who have been PA's for 10 years acting like you just won a MOH. Spare me. . Additionally, I'm the #4 student in a class of about 40 at the 12th best PA school in the country so apparently some of the nurses and EMTs in my class just don't seem to be benefitting from all of this so valuable experience. Perhaps you should give people more of chance. They just might surprise you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Ok, congrats to you navyfly....thanks for your service. Yes i was a peace time corpsman, so in battalion medicine i prob would suck.lol but i did gain invaluable experience and am proud of my foundation gained along with the years i put in after in the civilian world. So if that was meant as a sleight, whatever. In medicine, the Hospital Corps was great experience, peace time or otherwise. With regards for your standing good for you. You deserve it with the work you are obviously putting in. I still stand by my other comments though. We just have to agree to disagree... Sent from my VEGAn-TAB using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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