Hckyplyr Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hey guys, I'm in my didactic year of PA school in western new york, and I had a few questions. I left my P1 year of pharmacy school last year because of the proliferation of pharm schools, subsequently diluting the prospective applicant pool, and saturating the job market. I read this forum often, and people comment on how difficult it is to find a PA job, or how they are repeatedly low balled with job offers. I jump on websites like indeed.com, simplyhired.com, and most importantly paworld.net. I cant help but notice the huge amount of job listings there are throughout the country, not to mention the salaries seem pretty fair. Now, with pharmacy, alot of job listings are just that, Listings, with no jobs behind them. Lets take a site like paworld.net. This site has TONS of job offers, with extremely generous starting/experienced salaries. Is this site legit, and is this site a good indication of the overall job market for PA's nationwide? I'm trying to be open minded, and not a naive student who thinks a high paying job will just be handed to me upon graduating. So, when all of you are searching for jobs, have you ever looked at paworld.net, and if not, maybe this could help you out when looking for potential job prospects? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason09 Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Look, the bottom line is there are plenty of good jobs out there. The keys to finding them are passing up low ball offers and be willing to travel or uproot to find a job. One of the greatest quotes I have heard is "people who expect more get more" If you go into job hunting with an attitude that you will not be taken advantage of and know what you are worth then you will be fine. I am not saying be arrogant or obnoxious just know your worth. Also great jobs are not going to find you. It takes lots of work and lots of phone calls to get opportunities for interviews. This is especially true for new grads which I was recently one of them. Most new grads expect great offers to jump at them and this is not the case. It took me many many hours and applications to get a couple (key word a couple) of interviews and ultimately find a great gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beezus614 Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 I agree 100%. I graduated at the top of my class and had fantastic recommendations, volunteer activities, etc. and it still took me 2 1/2 months after graduation to find a great job. And actually, I had started looking for potential jobs 7 months before I graduated and still didn't have anything good by the time graduation actually came around. I was actually offered a job with a plastic surgeon in midtown Atlanta but it was a 3 year contract with a training fee that was paid to him if I left before 3 years, 65K salary with no health insurance, 401K, or CME money, and 70 hr work weeks. Needless to say, I wrote him a lengthy letter explaining the MANY reasons this offer was bogus. I just got a great offer in IR with wonderful pay and benefits, but it's not in the location I was hoping for. But when a good offer comes your way, as Jason09 mentioned, you have to be willing to travel/uproot. Know what you're worth, be your own best advocate, and be persistent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted November 20, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 20, 2011 there are plenty of jobs for every pa grad but many are not in major metro areas. many of the threads you will see on here are "why can't I find a job in new york city, san francisco, chicago, etc. in my specialty of choice? these are saturated markets. the rule of thumb for a new grad is this: salary, location, specialty. Pick 2 and only 2. sure you can do derm in nyc as a new grad...but you might make 45k. sure you can do em for 150k/yr...but it's in backwater, kansas, etc in my area there are 3 local pa programs kicking out 90+ pa's/yr. many want to stay here and to do so take jobs in specialties in which they have no interest like urology, endocrinology, etc when they really want ortho, em, or surgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 ... the rule of thumb for a new grad is this:salary, location, specialty. Pick 2 and only 2. sure you can do derm in nyc as a new grad...but you might make 45k. sure you can do em for 150k/yr...but it's in backwater, kansas, etc Most excellent advice...!!! many want to stay here and to do so take jobs in specialties in which they have no interest like urology, endocrinology, etc when they really want ortho, em, or surgery. For substandard renumeration and scope of practice... thus making it harder for the PAs that follow... or worse... causing the practices to only consider hiring NPs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason09 Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 salary, location, specialty. Pick 2 and only 2. sure you can do derm in nyc as a new grad...but you might make 45k. sure you can do em for 150k/yr...but it's in backwater, kansas, etc One of the best pieces of advice. I remember reading a post from EMEDPA about this same topic and really helped me out. Very true and great advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted November 20, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 20, 2011 I was actually offered a job with a plastic surgeon in midtown Atlanta but it was a 3 year contract with a training fee that was paid to him if I left before 3 years, 65K salary with no health insurance, 401K, or CME money, and 70 hr work weeks. WHAT???? I can't believe a doc or surgeon would actually stoop so low as to actually make and offer from this to a new grad..... seriously 65k is crap even with great beenies - then take away the loss of bennies and this is the offer equal to about 45k....... EVERY new grad should read this post and realize that offeres like that should be flatly and immediatly declined with a letter just as you did. funny I think I would have counter offered that you charge him a PA salary fee of $another $65,000 a year for hiring a PA and not and MA..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hckyplyr Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 You guys are great, thanks for your quick responses. EMEDPA, I've read that advice about "pick only 2" a few times before from some of your many informative posts, it makes alot of sense. A new grad PA (who was my ortho surgery lecturer for class last week) who recently graduated last year, just took a $65k/year job in ortho. She's young, maybe 24-25, and has no idea what a disservice she's doing to herself, as well as her profession by taking a low ball offer like that. I'm actually putting together a powerpoint with a different PA lecturer from class, and we are going to do a presentation to our class/upperclassmen on negotiation skills, and what to ask/accept when it comes time to negotiate for a job. As a side note, we're also doing a bit on investing/stocks/etc. for those interested in our class. I know a few new grad PA girls (not picking on girls, it's just the few I know) who graduated, took a low ball offer, and bought a brand new car, coach purses, Iphone, etc.........Maybe we can make a dent, maybe not........Thanks again to all of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrsmurf Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 65k for starting (assuming regular benefits, 40 hrs/wk no call) is decent for a new grad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 65k for starting (assuming regular benefits, 40 hrs/wk no call) is decent for a new grad. Sure is.... if this was still 1999... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicMovingOn Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 65k for starting (assuming regular benefits, 40 hrs/wk no call) is decent for a new grad. Disagree. Providers working for 65k are being taken advantage of. Period. Please (New Grads) do yourself a favor and research salaries so you can make informed decisions as to what is and is not a reasonable offer. EDIT -- Beat me to it, C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMtoPA Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Providers working for 65k are being taken advantage of. Period. +1. Not for 40 hrs/wk, and definitely not for 70 hrs/wk. Especially for what a plastic surgeon must be raking in - come on. This guy would be getting over so hard on a PA if one took the offer, and don't think for a second that he doesn't know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted November 21, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 21, 2011 Sure is.... if this was still 1999... I got more than 65k at my first job out of school(70k) with a full benefits package 3 weeks vacation, cme, etc when dinosaurs roamed the earth. the avg pa in 2010 made 90k with 1 yr experience, new grads made less, but not much less. with 5 yrs experience you can get all 3 if your timing is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul2834 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I'm making 67k right now with 2 weeks vacation and all benefits with just a B.S. that's less than a year-old. There's no way I'm taking a job that pays less after the beat down that is PA school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrsmurf Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 thanks for enlightening me. i've seen plenty of new grads start 75-80k in specialities, so I figure 65k starting in primary care was a reasonable assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted November 21, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 21, 2011 65000 per year for a 70 hour work week figures to something like $16 per hour! Any PA who thinks that is a fair wage should hang their head in shame. (then to realize this was an unbennefitted position is insane beyond insane) Come on new grad PA's get the AAPA salary data and study it before you accept any offer or even before you go on an interview. Stop underselling yourself because it negatively effects every other PA out there. Some day in the future you are going to be the experienced PA asking for 100+ per year and to have some new grad take the same job for below market (slave labor) is just not fair and should be avoided at all costs..... Also remember the AAPA data is 1 to 2 years old. It takes hat long to collect and analyze the data....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpagano Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Can you please post the AAPA Salary Data? I don't have access to it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummm987 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 65k for starting (assuming regular benefits, 40 hrs/wk no call) is decent for a new grad. Definitely low ball. I graduated last December & I haven't heard of anyone in my class taking less than 75K. I took a job in General Surgery, 4 x 12 hour shifts, no weekend, no call, full benefits, 98K starting....in Philadelphia. Taking lowball offers like 65K only hurts the profession by keeping our averages down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummm987 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Can you please post the AAPA Salary Data? I don't have access to it... Send me a message with your email. It is a large pdf document that has to be emailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momed Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I would appreciate the AAPA Salary Data if you wouldn't mind as well. I am starting PA school in January. I am starting to research the job market and find out about how PAs negotiate and all the contract stuff. Does anyone have advice for first time negotiations or any links to places to look at for stuff to include in contracts? I have always been an hourly wage employee working as a paramedic so this will be the first time that I will be looking for salary positions and signing a contract. I know wage usually differs by specialty. Can anyone share the average other benefits that I should be negotiating for? CME $, CME time off, vacation, sick, retirement, health insurance coverage (ie. 80/20 or 100% employer paid), dental, any other. I appreciate everyone's advice. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hum1doug Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Here is a link to some 2010 stats on PA/NP compensation: http://nurse-practitioners-and-physician-assistants.advanceweb.com/Features/Articles/National-Salary-Report-2010.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted November 21, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 21, 2011 Can you please post the AAPA Salary Data? I don't have access to it... Hey people AAPA is an agency you should be a member of and if you are you can get the entire salary survey for $20 (if you did it last year) I used to send the reports around to those that asked for it but then I stopped doing this as it is undermining the AAPA - they work hard to get the data and YOU should be a member and supporting the national organization (don't flame me as I am at time very unhappy with the AAPA but if you do not join them you had best be doing something else to advance the PA model and protect our jobs - since I don't have the time or energy for this I join AAPA and my local state chapter) join AAPA, pay for the report - if you hate AAPA then don't gripe that you can't get the report heck most of the info is on the advance web page anyways and a fair amount of it is public on aapa.org sorry to those that Hate AAPA - but we gotta stand up and be counted as a singular profession and I know that AAPA has dropped the ball many times in the past - but to do nothing and gripe about it is worse..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
convulsed Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Definitely low ball. I graduated last December & I haven't heard of anyone in my class taking less than 75K. I took a job in General Surgery, 4 x 12 hour shifts, no weekend, no call, full benefits, 98K starting....in Philadelphia. Taking lowball offers like 65K only hurts the profession by keeping our averages down. With NY and its 20+ programs , the employers can afford to low ball. You don't want it ? Fine , somebody who is hungry , with loans and bills to pay will. There's also been quite a bit of hospital closings in our neck of the woods, so more experienced PA's are also looking for new positions. I plan to move out west and dream big in the next 5 years ,because I was reading somewhere in CA that they were paying 100K + benefits for a new grad, and that's when I realize I'm in the wrong place , so for the moment I'm just accruing experience and scouting at new places to settle in. Actually even if you were to move up north (Upstate NY) the prospect and salary is much higher , but speaking for NYC , the salary stinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason09 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 thanks for enlightening me. i've seen plenty of new grads start 75-80k in specialities, so I figure 65k starting in primary care was a reasonable assumption. Just because "plenty" of PAs took those offers doesn't mean they are reasonable or good. I know a lot of ppl I graduated with made the mistake of staying around our area and took low ball offers like that. The area I graduated from had 6 PA schools within like 50 miles and I am guessing a lot of neive PAs taking low ball offers which completely ruined the market for everyone else. MedicMovingOn is right. If you do the basic research about PA salaries you will find the median salary across the board is 90k. If you are talking derm/ER/CT you are looking at over 100k median. I am guessing this number would be near 100k across the board if it were not so common for us to hear "I got X crap offer and took it and now I regret it... blah blah blah" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floopy Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 It seems there are two issues here: entry level salary and median salary. The report below shows only the latter. So how reasonable is it for a new grad to start at or near the median? http://nurse-practitioners-and-physician-assistants.advanceweb.com/Features/Articles/National-Salary-Report-2010.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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