brookspa Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 cert. pgm for me. avg age in class 41, required minimum of 5 years as an RN tto apply...average time as RN in class 14 years. many had ADN, BSN MSN, military non military...it works, but the vol of info and data to be absorbed ona daily basis overwhelming...drinking froma a inch and a half...easy to drown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpayne2 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I wrote a blog post entitled "Does the Degree awarded by the PA Program Matter?" Go check it out: http://physician-assistant-ed.com/2010/05/does-the-degree-awarded-by-the-pa-program-matter/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Heck, Stanford was (maybe still is, not sure) an Associates Program. Yes they are but you have to formally request it from Foothill to get it or else you just get the Cert From Stanford School of Med. I got my AS now I'm moving on to a MSPAS...wait a minute? Did I skip a step??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Yes they are but you have to formally request it from Foothill to get it or else you just get the Cert From Stanford School of Med. Uhhh... yeah... Didn't even request it... since I already had a couple of them (AAS degrees). Didn't even attend graduation... moved out of the state 9 days after they signed the papers that certified that I had completed ALL requirements (Dec 17th). Told Lucinda to mail me the certificate... as we were paying $3,600/month in rent in Redwood Shores... and I couldn't see paying another lump of cash to stay for another 24 days (Jan 10th) to walk. I had a job before I actually recieved it in the mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Uhhh... yeah...Didn't even request it... since I already had a couple of them (AAS degrees). Didn't even attend graduation... moved out of the state 9 days after they signed the papers that certified that I had completed ALL requirements (Dec 17th). Told Lucinda to mail me the certificate... as we were paying $3,600/month in rent in Redwood Shores... and I couldn't see paying another lump of cash to stay for another 24 days (Jan 10th) to walk. I had a job before I actually recieved it in the mail. Yah only two of us in my class requested and received them and that was ONLY to get into the ATSU APA program which requires a pre-pa AA/AS AND a AA/AS in PA (in my case, Primary Care Associate). There were a couple people in my class that skipped graduation too. They had job offers and whatnot in other states or regions of Cali and couldnt make it. I think everyone was just SO tired of PCAP at that point they had to get away! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnpac Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I graduated with a certificate of completion from the Stanford program in '81. Our class was populated with about 25 second career folks, (nurses, paramedics, RT, etc.), all older than the current crop of students, and all highly experienced in nursing and medicine. Completed a BA and MA in public administration thereafter as I was working for a public health department and thought that it would be a good idea to diversify my education. The degree creep has largely been an economic issue. Masters are being offered because folks will pay the premium; not because it makes a superior PA. Schools of higher education may express lofty thoughts about their values and commitment to education, but it is the dollars that drive trends in education; not the needs of the students and society. Call me cynical. The goal of education is to train folks who are ready and competent to do a job. We need to keep a variety of avenues available for PA students to reach their goals. Making PA education more expensive and difficult will only work against the diversity of the profession and the deployment of PAs into medically underserved areas. Not to mention put negative pressure on the supply of PAs when we need to be ramping up production. The train has left the station on this one, and more and more, those hiring PAs will measure the worth of candidates by the initials behind their name, and not their experience and demonstrated competence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted September 24, 2011 Moderator Share Posted September 24, 2011 Totally agree with steve above. some of the best pa's I work with have a certificate or associates. I would put them against an ms level pa any day of the week. I had a bs going into pa school. pa school gave me another but it was the cert that was important. I got the ms because my work paid for 100% of it as cme and it seemed to be to good a deal to pass up on. I am currently working on a doctorate(health sciences/global health) out of personal interest and to keep open doors for teaching in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I graduated with a certificate of completion from the Stanford program in '81. Our class was populated with about 25 second career folks, (nurses, paramedics, RT, etc.), all older than the current crop of students, and all highly experienced in nursing and medicine. Completed a BA and MA in public administration thereafter as I was working for a public health department and thought that it would be a good idea to diversify my education. The degree creep has largely been an economic issue. Masters are being offered because folks will pay the premium; not because it makes a superior PA. Schools of higher education may express lofty thoughts about their values and commitment to education, but it is the dollars that drive trends in education; not the needs of the students and society. Call me cynical. The goal of education is to train folks who are ready and competent to do a job. We need to keep a variety of avenues available for PA students to reach their goals. Making PA education more expensive and difficult will only work against the diversity of the profession and the deployment of PAs into medically underserved areas. Not to mention put negative pressure on the supply of PAs when we need to be ramping up production. The train has left the station on this one, and more and more, those hiring PAs will measure the worth of candidates by the initials behind their name, and not their experience and demonstrated competence. Hey Steve, My class was made up of 2nd (or 3rd, 4th etc) career folks. Our average was 7000 hours of HCE and some of us have upwards of 20,000+. We had ex corpsmen, RN's, RT's, P-medics, and FMG's. There were only a couple who were MA's for a few years but even they had significant hands on experience in their capacity. I don't think PCAP has strayed far from their original mission especially with Valerie Berry at the helm. It is sad that degree creep has hit our profession. I decided to get my MS (Reluctantly) so I wont get left out, in the event the entry level degree becomes the MS-which looks to be just beyond the horizon. I agree that the Cert and AS programs need to survive so that we continue to get the traditional students but I think that is the "old" thinking and this profession has been trending towards low HCE/HIGH GPA BS holders as the new ideal applicant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAdamsPAC Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Ha, ok Contrarian... gotcha buddy, take it easy. ANYWAY... from the many PAs I know and work with, none of them have ever mentioned an Associates program for PA, but of course that doesn't mean they don't exist. I just don't understand how an individual can graduate highschool, take a two year associate's course and begin practicing as a PA. I understand 2 years is 2 years, but if one were to think about it, a lot more than two years of education is required for most people to get into a PA program. How does that not create discrepancies with education standards for individuals who have gone through BS/MS programs? It seems that trying to educate an individual in all collegiate level sciences AND PA education in two years would be extremely difficult to do. Can someone just clarify how this works? P.S. To the OP, I apologize for providing you with incorrect information. Good luck. I'm with "C" on your post's content ,exacerbated by the myopic comment about a high school graduate attending PA school. Those programs that offer AS/ Certificates have pretty high standards for applicants in terms of HCE and "life experience" along with the proven ability to successfully complete the academics of the program. Many "old time PA" on this forum came from Certificate or AS programs .As an Alumni of MEDEX which is a stellar long time program I know of what I speak. BTW I passed both Primary Care and Surgery boards with "Gold Stars" with an AS degree and practiced at a major east coast Ivy Medical school affiliated hospital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Ha, ok Contrarian... gotcha buddy, take it easy. ANYWAY... from the many PAs I know and work with, none of them have ever mentioned an Associates program for PA, but of course that doesn't mean they don't exist. I just don't understand how an individual can graduate highschool, take a two year associate's course and begin practicing as a PA. I understand 2 years is 2 years, but if one were to think about it, a lot more than two years of education is required for most people to get into a PA program. How does that not create discrepancies with education standards for individuals who have gone through BS/MS programs? It seems that trying to educate an individual in all collegiate level sciences AND PA education in two years would be extremely difficult to do. Can someone just clarify how this works? P.S. To the OP, I apologize for providing you with incorrect information. Good luck. Wow I can't believe I missed this post....umm ok well I dont even have a HS diploma, how you like them apples. i grew up in the hood and didnt really have much opportunity. I challenged the HS proficiency exam in 10th grade and passed so i started working cuz mom n dad couldnt support me. then i joined the Navy where i was a corpsman and a surgical tech (I had to go to school for these). When I got out, I worked full time cuz again no mom n dad $ to help me out so I got my AA and took all the PA prereqs with a 3.6 GPA the whole while racking up 22,000+ HCE's along with volunteering abroad on medical mission. Yah I be a moron and should not be able to practice because the perception of my lowly AS in PA is that i is un-edumacated. I should go back to working at the gas station where I was repeatedly robbed as a teenager.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 No downsides... as most associate/certificate PA programs have articulation agreements with other programs that will allow you to get a Masters degree either concurrently or consecutively while attending the associate/certificate PA program... IF you already hold a bachelors degree. The cost of training may be significantly reduced also... My PA training cost me $24k (out of state tuitiion) My masters degree cost me $3,200. PA-C with a MPAS = $27,200. This would have been even cheaper ($15,200) if I would have been a resident of the state of the school I attended. It is my understanding that most Masters PA programs are charging near $65k-80k for the same knowledge aquired in a $20k PA Associate/certificate program. The benefit of getting the MS is latitude and competativeness in the job market. Some states require it for licensing, and most of the folks YOU will be competing with for jobs will have one. Not really a issue for PAs of my generation because our 15-20 yrs of experience and a PA associates or Certificate will trump a masters degree with little to no experience in most cases. Yep, as I have stated before, the cost thing was huge. I only had 16,000 in student loans from PA school, but I also worked full time the entire time I was in school. I think we need MORE AS programs and less of the MS programs. We need to produce more providers quickly. I've thought for some time that this gradual move towards all schools being Master's in origin is a huge mistake for our profession, but the movement is already there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Thanks PAMAC, that clears it up a bit. I just have a hard time believing that an individual can go from high school to a PA Associates program. It seems that these programs are for individuals that have a considerable amount of experience besides a high school education. To my knowledge the high schoolers that go to PA programs are in those 3+2 programs that lead to a MS degree. I have never seen a high school student go straight into an AS or cert PA program. That may happen but our state has the greatest concentration of cert/AS programs. Students (I have admitted) in the AS and Cert programs are usually: older, second career choice, more likely to go into primary care, more gender and ethnically diverse, and greater number with military HCE. You know "old school". About three fourths of California trained PAs licensed today are from Cert/AS/BS programs. That's a large portion of the workforce out here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 I agree that the Cert and AS programs need to survive so that we continue to get the traditional students but I think that is the "old" thinking and this profession has been trending towards low HCE/HIGH GPA BS holders as the new ideal applicant. "Old thinking" lol. Yes its a AARP PA thing. We are still trying to get a few more through the door before the "train that left the station" won't even let you get a ticket. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryfran123 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Ditto about graduating from an AS program in '87. I actually ended up with a BS as I had 2.5yrs of college prior to PA school. I was one of the youngest in my class at 20yrs of age but had significant prior HCE having worked as a nurse's aide for 3 years and in a hospital lab for 2 years plus providing care for my grandmother having learned to give IM injections at the age of 10 and mixing her meeds for nebulizer treatments. The majority of my classmates were 2nd career students. I too got the "gold seal" for PANCE in both the medical and surgical exams. I find it sad that so many programs and our national organization have moved towards MS as a terminal degree. Most state licensing boards have followed suit. I think it is a combination of degree creep seen in all allied health: PT/OT/Audiology are PhD terminal degree, as well as NP's moving in this direction. There are many potential PA-S with significant prior HCE that will be left on in the cold because of the increased cost and pre-requisites that these programs now require. I have been a preceptor of PA students since '90 and can honestly say I haven't seen in increase in the quality of the students based up this move towards MS. To some extent, I find them weaker in many ways. Funniest thing, with the current pre-reqs for PA school, I wouldn't have qualified as an applicant. Go figure..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 I find it sad that so many programs and our national organization have moved towards MS as a terminal degree. Most state licensing boards have followed suit. Maryfran, currently I think its about a fifth of the state licensing that require some kind of degree for licensure. I think it is a combination of degree creep seen in all allied health: PT/OT/Audiology are PhD terminal degree, as well as NP's moving in this direction. There are many potential PA-S with significant prior HCE that will be left on in the cold because of the increased cost and pre-requisites that these programs now require. True but somewhere along the way it was determined that applicant pool couldn't sustain increased program growth and the other issue of FA played a role IMHO. Funniest thing, with the current pre-reqs for PA school, I wouldn't have qualified as an applicant. Go figure.... You are not alone lol. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 "Old thinking" lol. Yes its a AARP PA thing. We are still trying to get a few more through the door before the "train that left the station" won't even let you get a ticket. Just saying. LOL AARP, I was merely pointing out the trend which I disagree with. I am one of the ones who benefited from the "old" thinking (again, which I am all for not just for self-serving reasons but for the preservation of the original PA prototype). Had it not been for my program's emphasis on HCE over Degree, I would still be a MA today :0) Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Had it not been for my program's emphasis on HCE over Degree, I would still be a MA today :0)Joe I know. You are part of the few that I was talking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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