Sherrie2166 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Just want an opinion. I started O Chem thinking it would be a good idea to take it even though the PA program I've already been accepted into did not require it. How important is O Chem for PA school? Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 1, 2009 Moderator Share Posted December 1, 2009 I think o-chem is a waste of time for pa's. you will never use it. biochem I must admit has some utility but I have never felt the need to learn any ochem and have always scored > 95% on every pance and panre I have taken so clearly it is not needed to do well on those standardized exams. if you are enjoying the class by all means continue but if you hate chemistry as much as I do then ditch out now. there will be folks here who disagree with me. most of them have not been to pa school yet or have a deep love for the basic medical sciences( I can think of one in particular who was working on his phd when he decided to apply to pa school....:) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatswain2PA Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Sherrie - I'm in same boat. I'm taking Orgo now and wishing I hadn't (my #1 choice doesn't require it and the professor is BRUTAL). I'm not going to take Orgo II next semester. I'm going to just sit in the Biochem class instead (can't take it because Orgo II is prereq). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 1, 2009 Moderator Share Posted December 1, 2009 there are places (both online and traditional) that allow you to take biochem without ochem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiesOutHere Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 O Chem is good because it teaches you how to memorize, stay focused, and study effectively. You won't use the course material, but you'll use these skills every day in PA school. And heck, you'll have days in school when you think, "I made it through Orgo, I can make it through this" and days when you think, "If only I was back in Orgo!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 1, 2009 Moderator Share Posted December 1, 2009 O Chem is good because it teaches you how to memorize, stay focused, and study effectively. You won't use the course material, but you'll use these skills every day in PA school. And heck, you'll have days in school when you think, "I made it through Orgo, I can make it through this" and days when you think, "If only I was back in Orgo!" a+p will teach you the same skills and is actually valuable course material... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfwpa Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I gotta agree.....Organic chem is completely unnecessary for success in PA school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthIdahoPAC Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I have not yet started PA school but would have to agree with EMED. It seems like some of the ideas are useful but the need to know mechanisms and where protons are moving does not seem to useful. From working in the hospital and shadowing PA's and MD's I have not once heard Organic Chemistry come up in discussion. For those of us applying to schools who require it, just fight through it to preserve the GPA! I do know that University of Colorado at Denver is now offering the 'medical version' of some sciences. As far as I know they are only offering medical microbiology, the rumor is they are considering adding medical chemistry courses. Hopefully it is true and other schools follow suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrie2166 Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 Thanks for the replies. I only have one test left and a final but the teacher is brutal as well. His last name is Wieder and they call him "Wieder-outer" because by the end of the semester, more than half the class has failed or dropped out. I am trying to hang on to a C grade but I am so ready to be finished with this class! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfwpa Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Thanks for the replies. I only have one test left and a final but the teacher is brutal as well. His last name is Wieder and they call him "Wieder-outer" because by the end of the semester, more than half the class has failed or dropped out. I am trying to hang on to a C grade but I am so ready to be finished with this class! My senior year we had a new un-tenured professor teach biochem. He failed over half the class...most of whom were seniors about to graduate. The problem is that he made the class needlessly difficult, ranted about how he'd only give letters of recommendations to students who got an A in his class...and IIRC only 5 people got As in a class of over 100. A few years later, I heard through the grapevine that he was actually let go by the university, in part due to his attitude of being an elitist rather than trying to be a good teacher. I guess the university really wanted their professors to teach well and not just do research. Good for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrie2166 Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 Brandon, Are you going to the University of Colorado at Denver? That's where I applied and got accepted. I start in June 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haeriphos Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I took upper level biochem without organic and got an A. I had to do some remedial research but it wasn't a big deal. Honestly, biochem is more about memorizing metabolic pathways than it is about chemistry -- if you know what a proton is and can understand General Chem I concepts, you'll do fine. If you don't need organic for any of your schools, don't do it. If you don't get in to PA school on the first round you can always take orgo next year to increase the number of schools you can apply to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoRyou Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 I gotta agree.....Organic chem is completely unnecessary for success in PA school. Just out of curiosity sake what other classes would you all think is unnecessary for success in the real world or PA school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkansas Ranger Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Thanks for the replies. I only have one test left and a final but the teacher is brutal as well. His last name is Wieder and they call him "Wieder-outer" because by the end of the semester, more than half the class has failed or dropped out. I am trying to hang on to a C grade but I am so ready to be finished with this class! Perhaps Wieder-wacker would be a nice name. Seriously though, people like that really tick me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkansas Ranger Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 O Chem is good because it teaches you how to memorize, stay focused, and study effectively. You won't use the course material, but you'll use these skills every day in PA school. And heck, you'll have days in school when you think, "I made it through Orgo, I can make it through this" and days when you think, "If only I was back in Orgo!" One can stumble upon a lot of scenarios in life that require the ability to memorize, stay focused, and study effectively and not just in an academic setting. It's ridiculous that an irrelevant school class can have so much negative bearing on a person's aspirations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfwpa Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Just out of curiosity sake what other classes would you all think is unnecessary for success in the real world or PA school? Personally, I feel physics isn't really necessary, although it can lead to a better appreciation of trauma/mechanism of injury...but it won't help you do any better in PA school. I had to have 2 semesters of calculus for my undergrad....they benefitted me in no way whatsoever, and neither did the specialty senior level microbiology courses I had to take, such as microbial metabolic regulation, microbial diversity, instrumentation, etc...but those were necessary for a BS in microbiology where I went to school. Other than that, pretty much all the core courses make you a better provider...especially english, Spanish ( a near must here in TX) , communications, computer classes, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthIdahoPAC Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Sherrie, I am doing my Orgo at Metro as well, with Barrows though. I did not apply to the CU program. I have a few friends there now who seem to really like it. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest starvingstudent Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 a+p will teach you the same skills and is actually valuable course material... Ochem (for scientists) will enhance your understanding of histology, physiology, and biochem (for scientists)... likewise with biochem, it makes everything come together IMO. And physics (for scientists) will enhance your understanding of general chem and Ochem IMO. Will taking these classes make you a better pa, yes I believe so. Anything that can enhance your understanding of the human body is worth taking IMO. I believe calculus is traditionally a course to filter out the pre-med boneheads, like me:p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfwpa Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Ochem (for scientists) will enhance your understanding of histology, physiology, and biochem (for scientists)... likewise with biochem, it makes everything come together IMO. And physics (for scientists) will enhance your understanding of general chem and Ochem IMO. Will taking these classes make you a better pa, yes I believe so. Anything that can enhance your understanding of the human body is worth taking IMO. I believe calculus is traditionally a course to filter out the pre-med boneheads, like me:p. Well, if you want to get technical, all medicine can be boiled down to mathematics....high level math explains physics, which in turn exlplains chemistry, organic and biochem. Biochem lays down the foundations for physiology, pathology, anatomy, etc. But you certainly don't need a PhD in mathematics to learn medicine. Are calculus, physics and organic chem necessary to do as well in PA school as a student who never too them? I think probably not. Certainly they won't increase your likely hood of passing the PANCE or PANRE. If you practice toxicology organic chem and biochem might benefit you there, if you do research at a very pure science level and are analyzing data, groth rates, AUCs, etc, calculus might help you there...but otherwise these classes really won't impact a person's ablitilty to learn and master the material learned in PA school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest starvingstudent Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Well, if you want to get technical, all medicine can be boiled down to mathematics....high level math explains physics, which in turn exlplains chemistry, organic and biochem. Biochem lays down the foundations for physiology, pathology, anatomy, etc. But you certainly don't need a PhD in mathematics to learn medicine. Are calculus, physics and organic chem necessary to do as well in PA school as a student who never too them? I think probably not. Certainly they won't increase your likely hood of passing the PANCE or PANRE. If you practice toxicology organic chem and biochem might benefit you there, if you do research at a very pure science level and are analyzing data, groth rates, AUCs, etc, calculus might help you there...but otherwise these classes really won't impact a person's ablitilty to learn and master the material learned in PA school. Biochem doesnt lay the ground work, (thats what gen chem and ochem are for).... it explains the how and why micro/macro molecules behave the way they do, and their physical properties. When I took Biochem I hardly ever used a calculator, except to calculate pH or determine reaction rates or enzyme kinetics or something of that nature... and never used calculus in either Ochem, or Biochem (except conceptual calculaus to demonstrate ideas). I agree with you though, but I cant comment on what will help or not help a person in pa school because I havent experienced that yet. I can comment though, that taking undergrad/graduate level science courses will definatly increasee your understsanding of the human body, its functions, and in the long run will make one a better pa.... But thats just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acozadd Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 a+p will teach you the same skills and is actually valuable course material... A+P is purely memorization and regurgitation (unless you are lucky enough to have a professor who puts many of their test questions into medical scenarios). There really isn't much application involved. Organic chemistry requires you to memorize many reactions, and also APPLY these. For example, my exams commonly had a starting structure and I was asked to convert it into another structure using 1 or more of the mechanisms we had to learn. Not only did you have to memorize the reactions, but you had to determine how they could work together to come to a final product. While you wont ever use the material again, it seems a bit like coming to a differential diagnosis and piecing together all necessary components... doesn't it? I feel that this is why organic chemistry is used as a weed out tool-- it separates those that can memorize facts from those than can memorize and apply the information. (I'll admit that I remember only a small part of what I learned in that course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest starvingstudent Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 A+P is purely memorization and regurgitation (unless you are lucky enough to have a professor who puts many of their test questions into medical scenarios). There really isn't much application involved. Organic chemistry requires you to memorize many reactions, and also APPLY these. For example, my exams commonly had a starting structure and I was asked to convert it into another structure using 1 or more of the mechanisms we had to learn. Not only did you have to memorize the reactions, but you had to determine how they could work together to come to a final product. While you wont ever use the material again, it seems a bit like coming to a differential diagnosis and piecing together all necessary components... doesn't it? I feel that this is why organic chemistry is used as a weed out tool-- it separates those that can memorize facts from those than can memorize and apply the information. (I'll admit that I remember only a small part of what I learned in that course) Most pa programs do not require a full year of Ochem. Reaction mechanisms are taught during second, and third quarter Ochem, and are really only good for (some) biochem concepts, but mostly useful for pharm tox, or when you are taking about intermediary metabolism (glucogenisis, lypogenisis, sterol synthesis, protein synthisis, etc, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eventide Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 We briefly talked about cis and trans molecules in a nutrition lecture. Other than that, my suffering through O-Chem last year is unjustified. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoRyou Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Is there a lot of math that one must know beforehand to even get an understanding of O Chem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest starvingstudent Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Is there a lot of math that one must know beforehand to even get an understanding of O Chem? college algebra at least so you can understand graphical data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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