Organic Chemistry

[just_me]

I think my pharm courses have given me a solid foundation to build on in whatever PA program I get into as they coverd pharmcodynamics and kenetics quite well:cool:

 

Plus I never said I wasnt taking BIOCHEM I just have no desire or plans to take Organic--and from my understanding BIOCHEM is more applicable to drug interaction with the body is it not

 

Thanks for the concern "yo":p

 

 

BTW wouldnt Genetics be a better course for teaching you the "genetic basis of disease" as opposed to Organic?:confused:

 

 

well ya'll good luck trying to understand pharmacodynamics, pharmacokenetics, biochem, genetic basis of disease, etc, etc... some people like to fully understand how things work and why... others are simply happy with connecting the dots.... i am the former. i like to know how drugs work and what they do in the body... i am not comfy with just dolling out medication... just sayin yo.:cool:

[devildoc0311]

I hate to agree, but having taken 2 semesters of organic and a semester of biochem I don't even remember much about organic other than the mass amount of time trying to memorize mechanisms that I will probably never see or need ever again. I can definitely see how biochem would have a more practical benefit in PA school or with understanding drug interactions. I wonder how many working PA's remember the difference between an SN1 and SN2 nucleophilic substitution reactions?

[Guest starvingstudent]

lazy bums!;)

 

cant you hear the violins playing your song haha.:D

[Guest starvingstudent]

. I wonder how many working PA's remember the difference between an SN1 and SN2 nucleophilic substitution reactions?

 

honestly thats not something you need to remember, even for biochem... well, maybe for understanding enzyme kinetics.

 

really you need very little ochem to understand biochem.... ochem helps in understanding nomenclature though.

 

.... remember those fx groups doc.

 

it also helps for understanding conformational changes in proteases and steric effect, kinetics, etc etc....

[Guest starvingstudent]

agree- I have never seen a clinical use for ochem outside of research related positions. you will learn all the organic chemistry related info you need to be a pa in pa school. ask any physician what they remember about ochem and they will tell you it was the hardest class they ever took and they forgot all the info 5 min after taking the final.

biochem has clinical applications but is not on pance or panre.

 

disagree with everything except the last sentence.... sorry. i am not a doctor and i still remember things from school... i like chemistry though, many other people do too.

[EMEDPA]

disagree with everything except the last sentence.... sorry. i am not a doctor and i still remember things from school... i like chemistry though, many other people do too.

 

having taken both pance and panre(several times) I can tell you it(o-chem/biochem) is not on either test.

if you like it party on but just realize you can practice as a pa without it as the vast majority of pa's in clinical practice today are doing....

[Guest starvingstudent]

having taken both pance and panre(several times) I can tell you it(o-chem/biochem) is not on either test.

if you like it party on but just realize you can practice as a pa without it as the vast majority of pa's in clinical practice today are doing....

 

no disrespect, but i said i agree with you on that... i disagree with everything you said except last sentence.... yes biochem has some clinical uses and its not on the pance....

 

there ARE a lot of MDs who like ochem, biochem, and P. CHEM too, i know because i have worked WITH MANY who said so, and yes they said it was tough and took extra time, maybe uneeded wasted time...

 

.... one could argue that general chem is not needed.... electro chem, nuclear chem, stoichiometry, orbital theory, or even know the periodic table etc etc are not needed right... but in fact all they are are stepping stones to more complex chemistry courses... and really have no practical application unless you are going to be a chemist right?

 

well i believe that chemistry, beginning from bonehead chem --> to ochem, and beyond are nothing more than TOOLS... and it all depends on what you get out of it, and HOW YOU USE IT. sure you can selectively read a PDR and not need to know a thread of ochem... but thats not me (and it shouldnt be you), and people shouldnt set low standard for themselves especially when prescribing medication that can potentially hurt someone... thats the golden rule right... cause no harm!

 

id rather be a critical thinker, and not a mindless robot just regurgitating knowledge without understanding.

[Guest starvingstudent]

oh ya i would like to add that there are some students who take classes to get credit - or its a required class, and then there are students who take classes because they want to learn, and find the subject interesting.

 

which one are you?

[EMEDPA]

I graduated 3rd in a class of 80 and never took biochem or ochem.

I was a TA for the pharm course 2 years in a row and received the highest score in the hx of the course there( missed 1 question on 1 exam in 2 semesters). my final score for the course was 998 out of 1000 points.

I think I got everything out of pharm that I needed. I have also scored >95% on pance and panre each time I have taken them.

truth of the matter is that when I was deciding md vs pa o-chem was a consideration. I thought it was a waste of time as did all of the docs I asked about it. you can understand pharmacology perfectly well without knowing o-chem. trust me on this. I decided instead to take extra biology in college instead of extra chemistry. although I was a medical anthro major I ended up with more bio credits than a bio major because they had to take lots of math and chem that I didn't. I did take physics and got a's all 3 courses.

if we were going to argue for extra coursework for pa school prereqs I would require a semester of physics before a semester of ochem.

[Guest starvingstudent]

I graduated 3rd in a class of 80 and never took biochem or ochem.

I was a TA for the pharm course 2 years in a row and received the highest score in the hx of the course there( missed 1 question on 1 exam in 2 semesters). my final score for the course was 998 out of 1000 points.

I think I got everything out of pharm that I needed.

 

ok but we are talking about pre-pa students... and maybe your pharm class was fundamental, but good enough to pass the pance.

[Guest starvingstudent]

i am not here to argue with you or debate your experience... thats not my place.

 

i dont know what kind of degree you have or where you got it... but some BS degrees require ochem or biochem... all depends on the school.

 

and there is really no point in debating the fact that there is noth9ing wrong with taking extra classes.... whether or not you think its necessary.... it never hurts to learn.

 

the pa profession is evolving very fast and one day you just might start seeing biochem on the pance (which would require basic understanding of ochem).

[EMEDPA]

ok but we are talking about pre-pa students... and maybe your pharm class was fundamental, but good enough to pass the pance.

 

our pharm course was taught by an md, pharmd.

I think he knew what was important for us to know and what wasn't.

"good enough to pass the pance" is the gold standard for our profession, remember?

we can argue about the quality of pance as a screening exam( and I have) but it still remains the standard as the barrier to safe practice vs not being certified at all.

also keep in mind many quality pa programs(including several of the founding programs) do not require o-chem.

[EMEDPA]

i am not here to argue with you or debate your experience... thats not my place.

 

i dont know what kind of degree you have or where you got it... but some BS degrees require ochem or biochem... all depends on the school.

 

and there is really no point in debating the fact that there is noth9ing wrong with taking extra classes.... whether or not you think its necessary.... it never hurts to learn.

 

the pa profession is evolving very fast and one day you just might start seeing biochem on the pance (which would require basic understanding of ochem).

 

I have 2 bs degrees and an ms.

there is nothing wrong with extra courses but many students think(because of posts like this) that o-chem is required, they take it and get a c- and then don't get into pa school and the profession loses another excellent applicant to another field.

the day that biochem and o-chem are on pance is officially the day that the reason to go to pa school vs med school has passed. if anyone wanted to learn that material and take a test like that they would go to medschool and take the usmle step 1 which is the only real difference in testing between md and pa. pance is basically step 2/3 of the usmle.

pa school produces a clinician.

md school produces a clinician scientist.

you can be a great clinician without being a scientist.

which do you want to be?

[er_]

the day that biochem and o-chem are on pance is officially the day that the reason to go to pa school vs med school has passed. if anyone wanted to learn that material and take a test like that they would go to medschool...

 

don't forget the two semesters of physics, and another 2 of calculus that are required of pre-meds...(even though many practitioners say you don't need either...)

[just_me]

Im like most students......you take what is required of your major....some you will like some you wont---if I have time I take other stuff that I find interesting---NOT stuff people think I should like and if I dont like it then Im lazy or a crybaby

 

Hows that?:cool:

 

heres the thing there are things that I might find interesting that you do not....and just because you may choose not to study it, doesnt make you lazy or any of the other adjectives you use to describe those of us that find chem deathly boring and uninteresting:rolleyes:

 

you like chem.....yippeee and there are others that like it---heck my chem partner was crazy for chem but had no desire whatsoever to take biology which I find wayyy more interesting---but I dont look down on her and she didnt look down on me

 

oh ya i would like to add that there are some students who take classes to get credit - or its a required class, and then there are students who take classes because they want to learn, and find the subject interesting.

 

which one are you?

[EMEDPA]

don't forget the two semesters of physics, and another 2 of calculus that are required of pre-meds...(even though many practitioners say you don't need either...)

 

calculus is only required at 10% of us medschools.....

[just_me]

calculus is only required at 10% of us medschools.....

 

 

yeah but it seems like every pre-med/ pre-health track in America has you take 1yr chem, 1 year ochem, 1 yr physics and 1 semester biochem:rolleyes: I had looked into the pre-health professions track at my 4 year and they had all that and hardly any of the other pre-pa requirements/recommended (A&P, micro,)

 

thats why I found it easier to do liberal studies and mix my pre-reqs into the mix

[Guest starvingstudent]

calculus is only required at 10% of us medschools.....

 

additionally.... most undergraduate biology majors require at least one semester of ochem and biochem.

 

and... all medical schools require full sequince of ochem and biochem among other classes.

 

... SO, no i didnt take chemistry to brag about it... i took it because it was required for my undergraduate degree AND i like chem. BFD!

[Guest starvingstudent]

ok lets look at it this way....

 

two student are being review to interview for a seat in a top pa program:

 

student one:

 

BA in psychology

minimum PA program prereqs completed:

a&p

gen chem

humanities

algebra

 

gpa 3.7

gre xxx

 

student two:

BS in biology (ALL PRE-MED PREREQS)

exceeded minimum PA program prereqs

a&p

gen chem ochem biochem

physics

stats calc

 

gpa 3.3

gre xxxx

 

both applicant were CNAs and volunteer.

 

 

so..... who is gonna get the interview??????????????????????

[EMEDPA]

yeah but it seems like every pre-med/ pre-health track in America has you take 1yr chem, 1 year ochem, 1 yr physics and 1 semester biochem:rolleyes: I had looked into the pre-health professions track at my 4 year and they had all that and hardly any of the other pre-pa requirements/recommended (A&P, micro,)

 

thats why I found it easier to do liberal studies and mix my pre-reqs into the mix

 

there is no required pre-med or pre-pa degree. you can major in anything(as you know) as long as you meet the specific prereqs.

[EMEDPA]

ok lets look at it this way....

 

two student are being review to interview for a seat in a top pa program:

 

student one:

 

BA in psychology

minimum PA program prereqs completed:

a&p

gen chem

humanities

algebra

 

gpa 3.7

gre xxx

 

student two:

BS in biology (ALL PRE-MED PREREQS)

exceeded minimum PA program prereqs

a&p

gen chem ochem biochem

physics

stats calc

 

gpa 3.3

gre xxxx

 

both applicant were CNAs and volunteer.

 

 

so..... who is gonna get the interview??????????????????????

 

actually neither. cna+ volunteer= throw them back in the water to get more hce.

if I HAD to pick one I would pick applicant 1 as they followed directions as to what was required and got a higher gpa than applicant 2. applicant 2 wasted their chance by taking courses that they could not do well in and missed the 3.5 gpa cutoff for the program, sorry, work on that gpa and reapply next yr..I have been on adcoms(several) where we sorted applicants for the first round solely based on gpa. > X= go on to phase 2. <x send="" note="" that="" says="" sorry,="" were="" not="" competitive="" for="" yr="" based="" on="" your="" gpa.="" probably="" want="" to="" hear="" this="" but="" adcoms="" really="" don="" t="" care="" long="" as="" followed="" directions="" and="" took="" what="" they="" told="" you="" to.="">

if they both had the same gpa and experience then it is a closer competition and might come down to (gasp) an interview.

 

although applicant 3 who was a resp. therapist for 5 yrs and has a 3.5 and met all the prereqs will get the seat before 1 or 3.....

HCE>GPA>VOLUNTEER>GRE

</x>

[Guest starvingstudent]

actually neither. cna+ volunteer= throw them back in the water to get more hce.

if I HAD to pick one I would pick applicant 1 as they followed directions as to what was required and got a higher gpa than applicant 2. applicant 2 wasted their chance by taking courses that they could not do well in and missed the 3.5 gpa cutoff for the program, sorry, work on that gpa and reapply next yr..I have been on adcoms(several) where we sorted applicants for the first round solely based on gpa. > X= go on to phase 2. <X t="" to.="" you="" told="" they="" what="" took="" and="" directions="" followed="" as="" long="" care="" don="" really="" adcoms="" but="" this="" hear="" to="" want="" probably="" gpa.="" your="" on="" based="" yr="" for="" competitive="" not="" were="" sorry,="" says="" that="" note="" send="">

if they both had the same gpa and experience then it is a closer competition and might come down to (gasp) an interview.</X>

 

lol to first sentence :D

 

ok... cut off for over all gpa is 3.0, sciience gpa cut off is 3.2 and they both have lots of experience. only one seat left in this years class.

 

science gpa for #1) 3.2

 

science gpa for #2) 3.5

 

sorry i should have made myself more clear.

[EMEDPA]

lol to first sentence :D

 

ok... cut off for over all gpa is 3.0, sciience gpa cut off is 3.2 and they both have lots of experience. only one seat left in this years class.

 

science gpa for #1) 3.2

 

science gpa for #2) 3.5

 

sorry i should have made myself more clear.

 

ok, all else being equal the seat goes to the science geek:p:D

[Guest starvingstudent]

ok, all else being equal the seat goes to the science geek:p:D

 

ah ha.... so ochem may not be useful for practicing as a pa, or passing the pance... but it can be useful for getting into pa school, if you do well in your science classes!:cool:

 

i hope people reading get something out of this... i feel smarter already :D

[EMEDPA]

ah ha.... so ochem may not be useful for practicing as a pa, or passing the pance... but it can be useful for getting into pa school, if you do well in your science classes!:cool:

 

i hope people reading get something out of this... i feel smarter already :D

 

not o-chem specifically just science courses in general....pathophys and pathophys lab( both excellent by the way) as well as biotechnology courses give you the same sci gpa boost as o-chem or biochem....I'm not anti-science...I'm anti-chemistry...and math...:p:D

when I was an undergrad I ended up with 13 bio courses to my wife's(the bio major) 11.

I really liked physics though...something about experiments that occur OUTSIDE of a test tube appeals to me....stats was fun too...I now know never to play roulette for example.....see, relevance to daily life....;)