Pseudo-Unique Undergrad Situation

[FutureDukeEMPA]

Hello all,

 

I'd like to take a moment to thank all of the moderators and posters who have made this forum into the informational powerhouse that it is for the PA profession. This forum has been the one constant in my whirlwind of career change, downturns and professional/personal doubt. The amount of help, information, suggestions, recommendations and the overall sense of community that has been created is immeasurable. Onto my situation and a fairly lengthy post with multiple questions/situations...SORRY! I hold an AS in Radiation Therapy and have worked as a therapist, treating cancer patients for almost 5 years. I have since left the industry as I have always wanted to use my degree as a "stepping stone" to undergrad and grad school. In addition, recent legislation changes have hit our field very hard and so I don't believe it will be a viable career in the next 10-20 years.

 

Usually AS degrees in Radiation Therapy, Nuclear Medicine, Sonography, Radiologic Technology, etc. are called "terminal degrees", in that, they are used for their respective positions and that's it. They generally do not transfer into standard 4-year universities. The only exception is if you can find Baccalaureate degrees for those programs (i.e.: if you have an AS in Radiation Therapy and you find a Bachelors degree program in Radiation Therapy, then your AS can easily transfer into the BS program). This however is very expensive as most programs are private and the Baccalaureate programs are few and far between. Because of this, most AS holders who want to go on to undergrad/grad school, have to enroll in a 4-year university and basically "start over", spending 3-4 years to receive a Bachelors in another field (whatever is offered at that particular institution). To address this issue, my university tweaked the Bachelors of Science in Public Health degree to accept AS degree holders who have a certain GPA, # of credits and other requirements. This program will accept your AS degree, and up to 60 credits of previous coursework and then you complete an additional 60 credits at the university in order to have 120 credits and receive the Bachelors degree. Completing the additional 60 Public Health credits usually takes 1.5-2 years.

 

For me, in addition to the 60 credits I need to receive the degree, I have to take all the "standard PA pre-reqs" (as most of you know, AP 1 & 2 w/Labs, Gen Chem and Organic Chem 1 & 2 w/Labs, Biochem, Toxicology, Virology, Microbio, Physics, a few Psych classes, Bio 1 & 2 w/Labs, Pre-Calc, Algebra, Trig, etc.) In all, I'm expecting to complete 90-100 credits at the university (60 for the Public Health degree and 30-40 pre-req credits). Anyone have any information as to whether or not you can use student loans to cover the pre-req credits? Technically, for student loans, I'm a degree-seeking student, with the Bachelors in Public Health being my degree on record. I'm unsure as to whether or not there will be problems with the student loans covering the additional time and money for the 30-40 pre-req credits, as technically, they are not required classes for the Bachelors in Public Health degree. Also, I am currently working as an Emergency Room Technician at a Level One Trauma Center/Hospital. I know most PA programs "strongly suggest", if not, mandate you to have a certain number of hours of direct patient care experience (~2000 hours or more). I DO believe that working for nearly five years as a Radiation Therapist will fulfill this requirement (I have close to 10,000 hours of HCE). Being directly responsible for the daily care and multi-modality treatments of cancer patients in both inpatient and outpatient settings, I believe, can be used as the required HCE (and it's paid HCE, by the way). In order to attend school full-time, among other factors, I quit my job but became an EMT-B in the interim. I figured nearly 10,000 hours of paid HCE as a Radiation Therapist and an additional 3500-3800 hours as an Emergency Room Technician (30 hours per week x 50 weeks per year x roughly 2.5 years by the time I apply for PA programs) should be more than enough to fulfill that requirement. What do you guys think?

 

Lastly, I admittedly did not do well in Gen Chem when I took it 10 years ago in the first semester of college when I originally was a Physical Therapy major. The "D" grade was because of a combination of freshman naivete, personal/family health issues and at that time, I discovered Radiation Therapy, which doesn't require Gen Chem. By the time I decided to switch majors, the deadline to withdraw from classes had passed so I was stuck with a D. In addition, there 3 classes in the Radiation Therapy program that I received a "C" in, but all the other classes were "A's and B's". My final overall GPA after graduating with my Radiation Therapy degree is a 3.3. That GPA is going up now, as I'm kickin' *** with all the classes I'm taking for the Public Health degree. I know, generally speaking, it takes many classes and a fairly long time to bring a GPA up and I'm confident I can realistically bring up my overall GPA to 3.5, maybe even 3.6 by the time I apply to PA programs. As I understand it, CASPA averages EVERY SINGLE course you have EVER taken at a college level. In addition, I think admissions committees can SEE EVERY SINGLE CLASS you have EVER taken at a college level--even classes that may not be required for the undergrad degree or for a PA program. I would like to know how to "explain" the D in Gen Chem, 10 years ago. I know, an A on the re-take will look much better but I'm sure an admissions committee will have questions about that. Also, the program-specific Radiation Therapy classes I got "C's" in...how I do justify that? Even though, they are not required classes for my Public Health degree and of course, have no bearing on a PA program, I think the grades themselves will be factored into my overall GPA and admissions committees will probably see those classes on the official transcripts and they might have questions.

 

Thanks for reading this far, I know it's a bore but any and all information/insight is sincerely appreciated!

Hope to ROCK the future PA word!! :xD:

 

[OpSite]

I took a few classes outside my major and student loans covered them.

[SoCalPA]

I am sorta in the same situation. I have been an EMT and phlebotomist for a few years. I have an AA Degree and the # of programs you can apply to without a BA degree are shrinking. I recommend you check out the online BS in health Sciences at Nova Southeastern. http://www.nova.edu/chcs/healthsciences/bhs/application_procedures.html

 

I think you should be able to take the pre-reqs as electives for the degree. Check on that.

 

Also some if not most programs will focus on the last 90 units of your education. Lots of PA student applicants with lots of HCE took classes many years ago. I know for sure that I am more mature and serious about my education compared to when i was fresh out of high school. Do your best and focus.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[rev ronin]

Usually AS degrees in Radiation Therapy, Nuclear Medicine, Sonography, Radiologic Technology, etc. are called "terminal degrees", in that, they are used for their respective positions and that's it. They generally do not transfer into standard 4-year universities. The only exception is if you can find Baccalaureate degrees for those programs (i.e.: if you have an AS in Radiation Therapy and you find a Bachelors degree program in Radiation Therapy, then your AS can easily transfer into the BS program).

 

You lost me at about this point, since that's simply not correct. I read posts like I read computer code: when you find the first significant error, stop. Everything that follows is based on that error, so you're not likely going to be seeing anything useful...

[Super Duper]

Anyone have any information as to whether or not you can use student loans to cover the pre-req credits? Technically, for student loans, I'm a degree-seeking student, with the Bachelors in Public Health being my degree on record. I'm unsure as to whether or not there will be problems with the student loans covering the additional time and money for the 30-40 pre-req credits, as technically, they are not required classes for the Bachelors in Public Health degree.

 

If you just intersperse the prereqs with you "normal" classes how will anyone know? I took at least 11 hours of science classes completely unrelated to my major, PA school, or anything else. As long as you can convince your adviser, it's usually good to go. I don't think people will mind giving you student loans either way. They may not be subsidized, but someone will be willing to give you a student loan at the rates they are currently charging. It's like a license to steal.

 

Also, I am currently working as an Emergency Room Technician at a Level One Trauma Center/Hospital. I know most PA programs "strongly suggest", if not, mandate you to have a certain number of hours of direct patient care experience (~2000 hours or more). I DO believe that working for nearly five years as a Radiation Therapist will fulfill this requirement (I have close to 10,000 hours of HCE). Being directly responsible for the daily care and multi-modality treatments of cancer patients in both inpatient and outpatient settings, I believe, can be used as the required HCE (and it's paid HCE, by the way). In order to attend school full-time, among other factors, I quit my job but became an EMT-B in the interim. I figured nearly 10,000 hours of paid HCE as a Radiation Therapist and an additional 3500-3800 hours as an Emergency Room Technician (30 hours per week x 50 weeks per year x roughly 2.5 years by the time I apply for PA programs) should be more than enough to fulfill that requirement. What do you guys think?

 

That sounds like plenty of patient care experience for most of the programs I researched. However, you might want to talk to a Duke student as I did not apply there and you seem to be really excited about that particular program.

[FutureDukeEMPA]

SoCalPA- I have looked into the B.H.Sc degree @ Nova...sounds very interesting, almost exactly the same format and "thought process" put into as my school. Though, it does seem like Nova is a bit more free with what classes you can take. Just hate having to pay that tuition LOL. Thanks for the info!

[FutureDukeEMPA]

rev ronin - I don't see how you assume that I what I said is incorrect. It most certainly is not and has been the bane of the process of finding a suitable Baccalaureate degree that will accept my AS in Radiation Therapy. The aforementioned degrees are what's coined as "terminal" degrees. Finding a Baccalaureate degree that will accept a specialized AS degree as a transfer and apply that degree/previous credits towards the Baccalaureate, is not easy and the ones that are offered (ie: The Bachelor of Health Sciences degree @ Nova) are few and far between. This has been the constant wall I keep hitting with several 4-year universities, but if you have any contradicting information/ideas (along with sources or direct links), please share, as I am open to as much information anyone can give. Thanks!

[FutureDukeEMPA]

Super Duper - What you're saying about interspersing pre-req classes among the degree-specific classes in dead on what I was thinking, I just wasn't sure if the college micromanages financial aid like that. It'd be a dream to go to Duke, but as time passes, I realize I'd just as likely go anywhere else if I got accepted, especially if it's cheaper than Duke LOL! Duke student or not, I appreciate all the information, thanks!

[loliz]

The reason I see that it doesn't make sense is that you don't transfer a degree, you transfer credits. The university will pick and choose whatever credits are transferrable. What classes apply to your bachelor's is dependent on the specific degree requirements. If most of your AS classes were specific to a trade than you will obviously need to take all of your basic foundation courses (english, math, history) before you can earn a bachelor's level degree.

 

Back to your initial question--- I believe that some undergrad financial aid eligibility runs out when you hit a certain number of credit hours, but while you are within those credit limitations it doesn't matter if the courses are on your degree plan or not. You should probably have a meeting with a financial aid advisor and an academic advisor.

[FutureDukeEMPA]

Loliz - You're absolutely right. I did not mean to convey that it is a transfer of the degree, but of the credits. Yet, the issue is still the same. Prior to entering Radiation Therapy, I was a physical therapy major so I have the usual run of the mill classes (English, Anatomy, Bio, Algebra/Trig, Calc, Physics, Psych, couple of other GenEd and humanities courses, etc.) However, the majority of the college credits I have are from the specific Radiation Therapy program, so while ~15-20 of the more general classes can be transferred, all of my Radiation Therapy credits are a waste--for most majors at a typical university. Because of this, I would basically be starting over if I had to declare a different major. But this Bachelors of Science in Public Health degree was tweaked to accept prior health science AS degree holders if they are health care professionals. So 10 credits of the general classes (English, Math, Physics, Psych, etc.) get transferred, plus an additional 50 technical Radiation Therapy credits get transferred and automatically applied to the Baccalaureate degree. Upon successful transfer, you take an additional 60 credits at the university for all things Public Health, resulting in a total of at least 120 credits and subsequently, the Baccalaureate degree. Not to mention, only completing 60 more credits for the Baccalaureate, once you're in the Public Health program, is MUCH shorter than having to start over with a different major (another 3-5 years). And about the financial aid, I guess I'm jaded from my previous school which pulled that kind of reasoning on me (IE: if you're an Accounting major, why are taking Microbio? It's not part of the Accounting degree, so we're not covering it with financial aid!) Thanks very much for your time and help!

[rev ronin]

rev ronin - I don't see how you assume that I what I said is incorrect. It most certainly is not and has been the bane of the process of finding a suitable Baccalaureate degree that will accept my AS in Radiation Therapy. The aforementioned degrees are what's coined as "terminal" degrees. Finding a Baccalaureate degree that will accept a specialized AS degree as a transfer and apply that degree/previous credits towards the Baccalaureate, is not easy and the ones that are offered (ie: The Bachelor of Health Sciences degree @ Nova) are few and far between. This has been the constant wall I keep hitting with several 4-year universities, but if you have any contradicting information/ideas (along with sources or direct links), please share, as I am open to as much information anyone can give. Thanks!

 

Very few associate degrees transfer part-and-parcel ANYWHERE. The default is that each bachelor's degree needs to have all of its credits completed--via transfer, or via coursework taken at the destination institution. Whether an AS is "terminal" or not is pretty much irrelevant.... except that it doesn't allow you to take part in a direct transfer agreement, which are the exception, rather than the rule, anyways.

 

All undergraduate credits transfer to any program, provided they're not remedial-level, to the extent that a destination program allows for electives. There are some exceptions, of course, but that is the rule. I've reused a couple of courses for all three associates and my one bachelor's degree, because they fit. On the other hand, I've had ALL of my first masters degree transfer into my second, and absolutely none of either transfer into my MS in physician assistant studies. Graduate programs almost never allow "free" electives, because they are so focused. But then, I think I sent ten transcripts to CASPA (I'd have to look to be sure, but that number sticks in my mind) including one from a school that no longer exists...

[FutureDukeEMPA]

rev ronin- Thanks for the insight. I understand what you saying and that's hitting the nail on the head. The "general" credits I have such as English, Calc, Psych, Anatomy, Bio, etc. may transfer easily into a number of Bachelors degree majors at a standard 4-year university (ie: if you are pursuing a Bachelors in Biology, most, if not all of those classes can be transferred and used for credit). However, as most of my undergraduate credits consist of Radiation Therapy-specific classes, they have no place in a Bachelors program in Bio, Microbio, Physics, Biomedical Engineering, Psych, Chem, and many other popular and easily accessible PA undergrad majors. So if you need a Bachelors degree, say, in Biology at any typical university, they will most likely be able to transfer your "general" credits (Anatomy, Bio, Chem, Psych, English, Calc, etc.) however, all of your Radiation Therapy-specific classes have no equivalency. So you end up spending more time (3-4 years) having to take the majority of the classes needed for a Baccalaureate in Biology. With my school, they DO accept your general and Radiation Therapy-specific credits. 10 credits of GenEd classes and 50 credits of technical Radiation Therapy coursework will be transferred and applied to the Baccalaureate. After you transfer into the university, you then only need to take 60 additional Public Health-specific credits for a total of at least 120 credits, and now you have your degree. This is an easier option in regards to time, # of credits taken and money. 60 credits can easily be done in 4-5 semesters (I'm on a 15-18 credit/semester pace, which is comfortable for me) as opposed to a potential 3-4 years in a different major.

[Just Steve]

I am trying to track your questions/issues here but I think I am missing something. I understand that you have an AS in Rads. I understand you are trying to transfer the bulk of those credits into a BS to minimize the time and cost of achieving a benchmark needed to enter PA school. You have found that most BS programs are not really welcoming to this "terminal degree" as it is so very specialized. The Public Health option appears to perhaps optimize your AS the most in regards to credit transfer. However, you are concerned that if you try to take some PA specific pre reqs, the financial aid office may say "no" being that they are not part of your declared major.

 

Am I tracking so far?

 

I got lost when the conversation starts going into hard, actual data of specific classes and credits. Let us put the actual degree aside for a moment and talk details. What classes does your desired PA school require and which of those classes have you achieved? Of those achieved, which are recent enough to qualify? For example, my school wanted per reqs less than five years old.

 

You seem pretty set on the notion that if you don't go Public Health, it will set you back an additional 12-18 months from applying to PA school due to having to complete a new BS.

 

Most PA programs give two shiny pennies (aka:not much) about what your undergrad is in, as long as it includes classes that they require and that your GPA is acceptable. It seems to me that if you can just bite the bullet and let go of this AS degree transfer issue, it would simplify your situation dramatically. Sitting down with an academic counselor and saying "this is what I have, this is where I want to be, how can I get there in the fastest, cheapest way possible?" may be the wisest decision to make.

 

You have a distinct advantage over a wide population of applicants. You have some pretty solid patient care experience. So much so, that I think you are being short sighted in not considering the PA schools that still offer a BS, instead of the Masters. You can always do a Masters on line while working as a PA, which puts you in the workforce 2 years faster. At the rate of new schools coming on line, your competition for a job as a new grad will only get more competitive the longer you delay.

 

I will pitch out there University of Washington/MEDEX. Yes, it is across country from you and logistically cumbersome but kazillions of college students go cross country every year and do just fine. In the fall of 2009 I started attending community college while working full time with only about 10 credits. I met their bare requirements for their certification program and applied, still attending school full time and working full time but at this time it was on credits that would push me from the certification into the BS pathway. I was granted an interview and accepted in the winter of 2010. I still kept going to school full time and working full time, determined to get my credits needed to get into the BS path instead of just the certification. MEDEX started with an online course in the spring, so I did that, worked full time, went to community college full time, until June of 2011 when I finished the credits for the BS portion and PA school started in person. I am graduating this summer.

 

My point is...you have options. Let go of the past rads AS...take from it what you can and move on. I served ten years as a Navy Corpsman, attended surgical technology school during that time. When I left the service I had some cheesy transcript from some college accreditation saying I earned around 90 credits for my time and effort. None of it was transferable to any sort of civilian school. Outside of the Navy, I attended a paramedic program through a government agency, which was equal to an AS in the civilian world but nothing from it transferred to college because of the location of my attendance. I had a state license and nationally certified, but no credits.

 

What did transfer was work and life experience. That is what got me into PA school. Not a GPA, not a degree, not some desperate attempt to piecemeal a bunch of non related ends together. Your experience is your best friend. Lean on it. Look at the few schools that don't require a bachelors to enter. And if you tell me "I can't afford it" or "my lover/parents/dog doesn't want me to move away" then your delay is not a problem of the system.

[Timon]

What did transfer was work and life experience. That is what got me into PA school. Not a GPA, not a degree, not some desperate attempt to piecemeal a bunch of non related ends together. Your experience is your best friend. Lean on it. Look at the few schools that don't require a bachelors to enter. And if you tell me "I can't afford it" or "my lover/parents/dog doesn't want me to move away" then your delay is not a problem of the system.

 

Quoted for the truth and from personal experience as an older / non-traditional applicant.

[Acebecker]

From what I understand, you're already in the public health BS program, right? Good. Get that done. Intersperse your PA pre-reqs with that as others have said - they'll be paid for.

 

Your "D" and the several "Cs" are no biggie. The "D" is not generally heralded as a problem as you graduated from AS with 3.3. The "Cs" could be questionable in that they were part of your coursework for your original degree and the adcoms may ask, "what led to you not taking your coursework seriously?" or some other stuffy question like that. Emphasize how you've done most recently. Once you get the BS and if your grades are solid, I don't think the "Cs" will hold you back much.

 

Your experience is good. I wouldn't worry about that.

 

You sound like a fair candidate for several programs. Reference Just Steve's post above for the rest of what's important regarding your flexibility.

 

Andrew

[FutureDukeEMPA]

Just Steve- Yeah, you're dead on as to my situation. It's OK now, however, because the bulk of my undergraduate credits were Radiation Therapy specific credits, they wouldn't transfer to any typical major. So here's how it went...I have an AS (~90 total credits), decided to do PA, most PA programs want a Baccalaureate so I went around to several 4-year universities and asked "can I apply any of my undergraduate credits to any major?" They all said, "for the majors we currently offer, most will take the general classes, like Bio, Chem, Anatomy, Calc, etc. but we cannot accept any of the Radiation Therapy credits". So, I would end up in a situation where, maybe 20 "general" credits would transfer but still left me with a huge chunk of credits I would have to take at the university, which would end up taking me 3-4 years and I didn't want to spend that kind of time. So a friend of mine told me about some universities that offer Baccalaureate degrees to allied health professionals who have AS degrees--they are usually "broad/general" degrees like the Bachelors of Health Science degree offered at Nova. They use an all-inclusive model of a broad range of health care classes and can accept a number of credits from your previous degree, to apply them to the Baccalaureate. So, the situation I'm in now, is the Public Health degree program accepted 60 credits of my previous coursework and all I have to do is complete 60 additional credits for the degree, plus, in my specific case, maybe 40-45 credits worth of the standard PA pre-req courses. All in all, I would be taking ~100 credits, which will take me, 2-2.5 years. So instead of spending 3.5-4 years taking all the classes needed for say, a Biochem undergrad + all the PA pre-reqs, I'm only spending about 2 years to get my undergrad & complete all the PA pre-reqs b/c this Public Health degree accepted and transferred a large portion of my previous coursework. About the financial aid, you are correct as well. I only ask this because my previous school gave me that kind of logic (IE: if you're an Accounting major and say you took a Microbio course, the financial aid office will not use student loans to pay for that course b/c it is outside of your degree plan) I wasn't sure if that was the general way it worked or not, but from what I'm reading from other posts, it's not the way it should be done and loans should be applicable to whatever course I would like to take whether it falls within my degree or not. University of Washington is actually on my list of programs to apply to. I would be ecstatic if I got accepted. I know the school in general is a top ranked university and the medical school and PA program are also highly prestigious. Admittedly, I never thought about receiving my Baccalaureate in PA, I suppose because of the constant trend of PA programs switching to Masters degrees, guided me in that direction--I want to be as competitive as possible. Not for nothing, but Miami-Dade College has an AS in Physician Assistant and it's accredited by the ARC-PA but I wouldn't go near it! LOL. I just can't see how those graduates can be competitive with Masters degree holders. Plus, I'm in my late 20s, I stopped my main source of income to dedicate myself wholly to undergrad. This is the second time around as a college student, so I might as well take it as far as I can. Additionally, my parents were always kind of disappointed I didn't continue onto medical school like I said I would when I was a naive 19 year old (LOL), so I figure I should at least complete grad school. This is far down the line but I would love to complete Navy OCS when I finish my degree and be a reserve PA in the Navy Medical Corps. Given your military background, what are your thoughts on that? Pros/Cons? As a side note, I'd like to thank you for your service to the country and hope you have a great Memorial Day!

[FutureDukeEMPA]

Andrew - You're correct...I'm currently in the Public Health degree program and I will start to intersperse a few of the PA pre-req classes every semester. Yeah, I figured the adcoms will mention it and I need to be ready to handle those questions. I definitely will be re-taking Gen Chem, obviously, and though the average of the two grades may not pull up my overall GPA much, I am hoping that when looked at individually, they can appreciate that it went from a "D" to hopefully, an "A". By the time I finish my degree-specific courses and my PA pre-reqs, I'm estimating between 85-100 undergraduate credits will have been completed (this is in addition to the 60 credits already transferred), and from what I understand, at least for many non-traditional students, the last 80-90 credits are looked at heavily. Plus if I do well (As and Bs) for 85-100 credits, both my overall and science GPAs should be in the mid-high 3s (I'm aiming for a 3.5-3.6--I think that's fairly realistic). The GPA combined with a very good recent performance (85-100 credits), a good GRE score, my total HCE, and a few LORs should, I hope, make me a viable candidate for a number of programs. As I stated before, it's people like you who have been through the trenches, that help us noobs navigate the rough waters much more effectively and efficiently. Thanks very much for your insight!

[Just Steve]

You mention being competitive against Master Degree holding students..I am assuming you mean in the job market. Again, I cannot stress enough, how much of an advantage you have with your hours of health care experience. When an employer is faced with a Master degreed 24-25 year old and a BS PA with over 10K of HCE...guess who is getting the job? Not the youngster with no experience. And once you land your first job, your degree doesn't matter with the exception of a few backward states that require a Masters to be employed. Who really wants to work in Mississippi anyways? Not like they are a cutting edge of medical progress.

 

I am not a math major, nor did I attend college in a traditional manner, so please forgive me if I am way off base but I was under the impression that most BS degrees are around 120 credits. This would be 15 credits/semester, 30 credits a year, x 4 years.

 

In your current plan of obtaining your Public Health degree, you'll be having to take, per your account, about 100 credits more to cover both the degree and the pre reqs. Where I am lost is that you have already said that most programs will accept about 20 credits of general studies...leaving you needing to take about 100 credits more.

 

I understand, it's a moot point. You are in the public health track, you seem happy with your decision, that is the important part. I am just confused at the math..it seems the same to me either way. I was thinking if you opted for a more science based track you could open doors for DO, MD, RN which can lead to NP or CNRA or something like that as well as keeping the PA option open.

 

Either way...good luck, have fun, study hard.

[EMEDPA]

You mention being competitive against Master Degree holding students..I am assuming you mean in the job market. Again, I cannot stress enough, how much of an advantage you have with your hours of health care experience. When an employer is faced with a Master degreed 24-25 year old and a BS PA with over 10K of HCE...guess who is getting the job? Not the youngster with no experience. And once you land your first job, your degree doesn't matter with the exception of a few backward states that require a Masters to be employed. Who really wants to work in Mississippi anyways? Not like they are a cutting edge of medical progress.

.

agree with this. unless you want to get into teaching or work in specific states any degree will be fine. I work with PAs with cert, a.s., b.s., m.s., and Phd level crentials. we all make the same money and some of the better PAs have the "lower" credentials.

[True Anomaly]

FutureDuke person- is there some reason why your font is 3-4 sizes smaller than the rest of us? It might be just me, but with the small font plus you're style of writing everything in one paragraph makes it a bit tougher to decipher what you're saying.

 

Am I just shouting into the wind on this one?

[FutureDukeEMPA]

Just Steve - I suppose you are right about my experience being a weighted factor when compared to traditional PA grads who may not have as much. Though, now I'm not sure if it is worth it to switch, as I am already in the Public Health Baccalaureate program. You are right with the math about the total number of credits-most Baccalaureates are ~120 credits if not a little bit more. How it works is they accept 10 credits of Gen Ed courses (Humanities, English, Social Sciences, etc.) plus 50 credits of technical Radiation Therapy courses to make 60 transferable credits. Once you're in the program, you need to take an additional 60 credits of Public health, for a total of 120 credits, which is the minimum number you need to have in order to obtain the degree. Of the 60 credits you have to take at the university, 18 are free electives (so, 2 birds, 1 stone--use the 18 elective credits to take PA pre-req classes). So my pre-req plans, which is based off of researching a large number of PA programs' pre-req lists, would look something like this:

-A&P 1 & 2 w/Labs: 8 credits

-Bio 1 & 2 w/Labs: 8 credits

-Gen Chem 1 & 2 w/Labs: 8 credits

-Organic Chem 1 w/Lab: 4 credits

-Microbiology: 4 credits

-Statistics/Biostatistics: 3 credits

-Abnormal/Developmental Psychology: 3 credits

**This totals 38 credits**

 

Then you have the "filler" classes (classes that may not be required but which are strongly suggested to make you a more competitive applicant--I'll most likely take 3 of these classes)

-Biochemistry: 4 credits

-Virology: 3 credits

-Immunology: 3credits

-Pathophysiology: 3 credits

-Genetics: 4 credits

-Medical Terminology: 3 credits

**This totals approx. 10 credits**

 

So I'm looking at approximately 48-50 credits of PA pre-req courses (at least 38 b/c the first list of classes are required at almost all PA programs that I looked into-they are the "standard" classes to take. Plus, 2-3 classes off of the second list just for good measure and I'm looking at 48-50 total pre-req credits). Out of say, 48 credits, 18 of them can be taken as "electives" for the Public Health degree, leaving 30 outstanding credits...so 60 credits for the Public Health Baccalaureate, plus 30 remaining PA pre-reqs puts the total amount of credits that I will have actively taken at the university, to 90. That's a solid number of credits to be evaluated for recent undergraduate performance. If you do well, 90 credits will certainly help increase the overall and science GPAs, and 90 credits can be completed ~2.5 years-based upon my particular pace (15-18 credits/semester and I attend all 3 semesters throughout the year: Spring, Summer & Fall). Plus, I will have a separate Baccalaureate degree, where if I weren't able to attend PA school or didn't want to attend at the time or some other life situation that would delay entrance--I have an undergraduate degree + pre-reqs that I can use for a number of other health science grad programs. Hope this clarifies it and thanks for the support!

[FutureDukeEMPA]

EMEDPA - I know you know what you're talking about. Maybe I should look into PA Bachelors programs. I still have some time before I complete my Public Health--I just honestly never looked at it that way. Case in point, I was a Physical Therapy major when I first entered college-at the time the standard entry level degree was a Masters (my program was a 5-year combined BS/MS). Now most programs have switched to a DPT as the entry level. If I was still in Physical Therapy, I admittedly would go directly to the DPT programs and would be hesitant about applying to the few remaining Masters programs. As a side note, I'd like to thank you for all the contributions and insight you offer-you were the first "poster" that I started to follow on this site and still do. Hopefully, I'll follow in your footsteps in Emergency Medicine!

[FutureDukeEMPA]

True Anomaly - Consider your voice heard! LOL. Sorry about that, never gave it that much thought. I hope this is much clearer. You are among a handful of consistent posters/moderators that I have been following for a while, plus you're in EM which is where I hope to see myself in the future. Thanks for your insight!

[True Anomaly]

No problem. It's probably just also dependent upon which computer and operating system one might be using, or even over phones/tablets, that affect how the text comes across.

 

I did want to address one thing from one of your recent posts

 

Admittedly, I never thought about receiving my Baccalaureate in PA, I suppose because of the constant trend of PA programs switching to Masters degrees, guided me in that direction--I want to be as competitive as possible. Not for nothing, but Miami-Dade College has an AS in Physician Assistant and it's accredited by the ARC-PA but I wouldn't go near it! LOL. I just can't see how those graduates can be competitive with Masters degree holders.

 

I'm hoping that you made that statement because you feel that those with a Master's degree might have a leg up on certain PA jobs (in certain states, a master's degree is now required), and not that a PA who completed an associates-level program is somehow an inferior PA, because I can assure you they are just as excellent as any other "master's-trained" PA's, and many times much better than them.

[FutureDukeEMPA]

True Anomaly - Yeah, I made that comment in reference to being as competitive as possible in some of the larger and more competitive markets/cities of the country. I'm a city boy from New York and I think I am always going to live in a relatively large/urban environment. Maybe not as large and metropolitan as New York, LA or Chicago, but at least Portland (OR), Seattle, Houston, Raleigh, certain parts of Michigan (around Duke to be honest), Boston, Washington DC, Atlanta, etc. Many of these markets have many PAs and the "native" PA programs in those areas are Masters degree programs. I just didn't want to end up in a situation such as living in New York City, where the vast majority of PA programs in the entire state are Masters degrees, and I have an Associate's. I suppose I have always been a bit more "traditional/cautious" when it comes to things like that. I suppose you can call it a herd mentality. I sometimes think that at least in a collegiate/professional capacity, if something is the "benchmark" or the "norm" for a vast majority of programs, why go against the grain for that? It's such a large undertaking in terms of time and money, it's mentally and physically exhausting, and after all that, I wouldn't want to miss out on opportunities or have more barriers in front of me because I have an Associates where most of the field (in recent years at least) have Masters. Plus like I mentioned before, I'm 27 and this is my second turn in college, many of my family members are health care practitioners with graduate and doctoral degrees (no pressure there LOL) and I gave up much to go back full time. I already have an Associates...don't need another one. For the total amount of years I would be spending, I'd rather get the Baccalaureate and the Masters to my name.