Corpsman2PA Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 WTF are you moving your DSLs about...???? I was talking about him equating forced vaccination to wearing suspenders dumba$$... (see quote in post #44) Stand down until you actually KNOW WTF you are talking about....!!!!! Wow wow wow...I was referring to JMPA's quote... not yours. (Page 2 #28). Don't flatter yourself. Very professional post though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Ha... ha...Yeah... right.... First you try to call me out for stating that I hope they expel ANY healthcare provider who equates forced vaccination to wearing suspenders... Then when you realize how galactically stupid and indefensible that would be... you claim to have been referring to a different post....??? Yeah... ok whatev.... As for "professsional"... I ONLY need to be "professional" in my place of employ... YOU don't rate it. What happened....????? Did they increase the tuition and toss out any serious/real Bio/Medical ETHICS courses....??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpsman2PA Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Ha... ha...Yeah... right....First you try to call me out for stating that I hope they expel ANY healthcare provider who equates forced vaccination to wearing suspenders... Then when you realize how galactically stupid and indefensible that would be... you claim to have been referring to a different post....??? Yeah... ok whatev.... As for "professsional"... I ONLY need to be "professional" in my place of employ... YOU don't rate it. No, seriously. I was responding to your quote, but was referencing JMPA when making that statement (I hadn't even read your piece about suspenders because as I was typing, you were posting). SO...again don't flatter yourself. Your version of the scenario is completely false. It was in reference to post #28 on page 2. NOT your suspenders post. I don't wan't to rate nor did I ask to "rate" (I like your use of military jargon) your professionalism. But as I can see, again, it escapes you at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpsman2PA Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Ha... ha...Yeah... right....First you try to call me out for stating that I hope they expel ANY healthcare provider who equates forced vaccination to wearing suspenders... Then when you realize how galactically stupid and indefensible that would be... you claim to have been referring to a different post....??? Yeah... ok whatev.... As for "professsional"... I ONLY need to be "professional" in my place of employ... YOU don't rate it. What happened....????? Did they increase the tuition and toss out any serious/real Bio/Medical ETHICS courses....??? I like how you edit your posts but it doesn't show that you edited it...how does one do that? If you notice though, I use the word "Graduate" in my reference. YOU say the word expel. Again...post #28 page 2 will be of help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I like how you edit your posts but it doesn't show that you edited it...how does one do that? If you notice though, I use the word "Graduate" in my reference. YOU say the word expel. Again...post #28 page 2 will be of help. So now I have special powers...??? Your backslide is getting comical. Go study.... Move out Smartly...!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpsman2PA Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 So now I have special powers...???Your backslide is getting comical. Go study.... Move out Smartly...!!! Lol...nice finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator True Anomaly Posted March 1, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2013 If you edit the first time, it doesn't show up that you edited your post. If you do it a second time, it'll show up at the bottom....but you can go back and erase that automatic line that's inserted at the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justeco Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just to throw more information out there... if your religion demands veganism, as most vaccines are made with fertilized chicken eggs or cultured animal cells, it seems plausible ,under Title VII, that your employer would be required to provide religious accommodation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 If you edit the first time, it doesn't show up that you edited your post. If you do it a second time, it'll show up at the bottom....but you can go back and erase that automatic line that's inserted at the end Really... never knew that. I just know that you have so many seconds/minutes to edit before the automatic stuff shows up at the bottom of the post. So I usually make sure that I read what I wrote and edit accordingly before that time runs out. Didn't know you could simply erase that. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator True Anomaly Posted March 1, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2013 Really... never knew that. I just know that you have so many seconds/minutes to edit before the automatic stuff shows up at the bottom of the post. So I usually make sure that I read what I wrote and edit accordingly before that time runs out. Didn't know you could simply erase that. Interesting. Most message boards run the same way- not that I'm any sort of expert on VBB code or anything. Just have spent WAAAAAAAAAAAY too much time on the internet surfing forums :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Yeah most but not all of them... as I also belong to 2 forums (military and motorcycle) that don't allow you to edit what you wrote after hitting submit... and another one that logs EVERY edit after the initial submit and makes all edits available to anyone who clicks on them. This last one, it is impossible to erase the "edited" indicator because it is part of the "admin only" accessible board architecture. Its all about the settings that the Admin inputs/allows.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted March 1, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2013 A couple of problems with your response.... 1.) You couldn't possibly be equating something as serious as being compelled to INJECT something into your body with being required to wear a clothing item.... could you...??? Cause if you are... you should be expelled from PA school TODAY...!!! 2.) Nope...!!! Nowhere did I say... "we can't mandate something that has proven benefit because it is not entirely benign." What I said was MANDATING that people INJECT a substance with PROVEN risk into their bodies carries a lot of Ethical Quandries with it. 3.) Where were You taught that it was OK/Kosher to FORCE patients to do anything....???? (don't say the military because YOu haven't experienced THAT yet.... soon but not yet.) 4.) I have NO opposition to immunizations/vaccinations. As I stated, I think many of them are useful and took LOTS of them during my 8 yrs of military service with worldwide deployments. I've stood and functioned medically in OCONUS populations where the lack of a vaccination program caused significant problems that we rarely see here. So NO problem/opposition to vaccines. As stated above... if you were paying attention in college, Bioethics,has taught us that "compelling" folks to do things with their own bodies is BAD JuJu... As someone who recently signed up to protect "freedom"... I hope you under/overstand that "freedom starts cephal-caudally and then extends outward from there... Meaning: The "right" to vote, bear arms, etc... means Jack Schitt if you can be forced into having or NOT having a baby, a surgery, or a INJECTION. Said plainly... I tend to agree that if you don't like the rules work somewhere else... This agreement seriously conflicts with lots of Codified Ethics and Bioethics. I also think that this notion doesn't/shouldn't give employers carte blanche to usurp personal freedoms which are at the CORE of what YOU just joined the military to protect. I have a suspicion that many believe as I do because if they didn't... there wouldn't be a such thing as "EO/Sexual harrasement" Complaints cause a business owner could treat their employees as they please/ see fit and if the employee didn't like it, they coul just leave without any recompense. Fortunately, That's NOT how it works in civilized societies. Not sure where you are talking about clothing, but I am saying that INH isn't fun. Also, we require employees to drive in certain occupations, which is far more dangerous than the flu vaccine. Also, I would never mandate a patient do anything. That's a straw man argument. I'm talking about requiring employees to get preventative treatment for the good of all other employees and consumers, not talking about patients. Now if the risk of contracting said disease was lower, say at a best buy, I would not see a compelling reason to force vaccination. However, we work in healthcare. If I were an epidemiologist running rabies research on animals, I would require rabies vaccine. If I were running a TB exclusive clinic, I would require TB vaccine. Again, I'm ALL for personal freedoms, but that freedom can not infringe on others. So you refuse to get the vaccine, then reserve the employer the right to not pay for sick days used for flu. Also, you have to wear masks 24/7 at work, because its not fair for you to spread flu to others because you didn't want the vaccine. BTW, I exercise my right all the time and don't get the flu vaccine unless I have to. I even signed a waiver at my last hospital to get out of the flu vaccine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted March 1, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2013 WTF are you moving your DSLs about...???? I was talking about him (Oneal) equating forced vaccination to wearing suspenders dumba$$... (see quote in post #44) Stand down until you actually KNOW WTF you are talking about....!!!!! Oh I see now. Forgot I even wrote that. That was just a attempt at humor about looking dorky in suspenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Not sure where you are talking about clothing, but I am saying that INH isn't fun. Also, we require employees to drive in certain occupations, which is far more dangerous than the flu vaccine. [Missed the point again... Its really NOT about how "dangerous" one is over the other... its about compelling someone to inject a substance into their body regardless of how dangerous or benign it is. Its not about flying a jet, working on a crab boat, driving a tank, working on a oil rig, etc... its about actually being compelled to INJECT something into your temple (body).] Also, I would never mandate a patient do anything. [As soon as the needle punctures the dermis it's a PATIENT that just so happens to be a healthcare provider] That's a straw man argument. I'm talking about requiring employees to get preventative treatment for the good of all other employees and consumers, not talking about patients. [these aren't mutually exclusive] Now if the risk of contracting said disease was lower, say at a best buy, I would not see a compelling reason to force vaccination. However, we work in healthcare. If I were an epidemiologist running rabies research on animals, I would require rabies vaccine. If I were running a TB exclusive clinic, I would require TB vaccine. Again, I'm ALL for personal freedoms, but that freedom can not infringe on others. So you refuse to get the vaccine, then reserve the employer the right to not pay for sick days used for flu. [Look Up... and you will see that the vaccine doesn't stop the vast majority of influenza. It helps decrease the incidences, but doesn't really stop it. So I hope you can see the problem with your last notion... namely you have just given the employer the option to refuse to pay for sick days for Influenza... even IF you did get a flu vaccination..!!!] Also, you have to wear masks 24/7 at work, because its not fair for you to spread flu to others because you didn't want the vaccine. [Again... even if you did get the Vaccination.. you can still get the flu and spread the flu...!!] BTW, I exercise my right all the time and don't get the flu vaccine unless I have to. I even signed a waiver at my last hospital to get out of the flu vaccine. [see that's just it right there... YOU were allowed to opt out without being threatened with job loss... You weren't COMPELLED...!!!! You decided what would be allowed in your body without duress. That's not the way a lot of places are going with this. These places are allowing thousands of un-vaccinated folks the personal autonomy to decide if vaccinations fit their worldview (presumably because its IMPORTANT to do so) whileat the same time denying this important concept (personal patient autonomy) to their employees...] To re-iterate... I am NOT at all paranoid about the Influenza vaccine. I think it and most Vaccination programs are great... I think that if you apply for a job, and vaccination is a requirement, then get them or apply elsewhere. I have a problem with employers mandating that their current employees allow someone to inject them or they loose their jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted March 1, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2013 To re-iterate...I am NOT at all paranoid about the Influenza vaccine. I think it and most Vaccination programs are great... I think that if you apply for a job, and vaccination is a requirement, then get them or apply elsewhere. I have a problem with employers mandating that their current employees allow someone to inject them or they loose their jobs. First, I was talking about IF they DON'T get the vaccine, then don't pay for sick days. But I understand your point better now with the last statement. 100% agree that if it was not a condition when you were hired, then tough s**t for the employer. We are actually on the same page completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 First, I was talking about IF they DON'T get the vaccine, then don't pay for sick days. So you are saying I could make a pretty penny selling "black market".... "Has had Flu Vaccination" letters... huh...!!! :wink: Also... how will it be verified that the employee got the vaccine...??? Will the employee be required to allow the employer access to their medical record...??? Will the employee be required to only get a Flu shot where the employer says...??? I'm seeing LOTS of ethical problems with this and potential for abuse. Does the employer have to pay for sick days related to pregnancy... cause getting and staying pregnant is elective. Does the employer have to pay for sick days related to Cosmetic surgery... or Bariatric Surgery..?? I ask because Obesity requiring Liposuction or Gastric Banding is elective... and so is breast augmentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 As a Psych Prescriber... we have to respect the patient's right to refuse any/all medication. IT'S THE LAW. We can only compel medication under certain narrow circumstances in certain narrow settings. Most of the time (non-urgent) a COURT ORDER is required unless its deemed life threatening/Imminent Danger to self-Others... These are psych patients who its appears have more rights than a nurse/PA/NP at one of these hospitals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted March 1, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2013 I said we agree so I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 ....but you can go back and erase that automatic line that's inserted at the end Since I'm evidence based... Out of curiosity... I just tried this today... FAIL!!!! As this doesn't and has never worked on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted March 6, 2013 Administrator Share Posted March 6, 2013 100% agree that if it was not a condition when you were hired, then tough s**t for the employer. There are SO many ways around this it's not even funny. "Must comply with all institution credentialing requirements" probably shows up in everyone's contract or job description. Change the credentialing requirements? Now no longer able to be credentialed without flu shot. Incorporation by reference... very straightforward, and pretty much ironclad unless grossly abused. ... not to mention the employer can make anything that requires employer approval (vacation, etc.) contingent upon employee acceptance of an updated employment agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted March 6, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 6, 2013 There are SO many ways around this it's not even funny. "Must comply with all institution credentialing requirements" probably shows up in everyone's contract or job description. Change the credentialing requirements? Now no longer able to be credentialed without flu shot. Incorporation by reference... very straightforward, and pretty much ironclad unless grossly abused. ... not to mention the employer can make anything that requires employer approval (vacation, etc.) contingent upon employee acceptance of an updated employment agreement. Yes, but I thought we were talking about what should be done and not could. Obviously they can do what they want and already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator True Anomaly Posted March 7, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 7, 2013 Since I'm evidence based...Out of curiosity... I just tried this today... FAIL!!!! As this doesn't and has never worked on this site. i thought you could. Oh well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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