80 new PA programs scheduled to open by mid 2016

[ventana]

Great Analysis Mike and right on the money. Just like economics drives academic institutions to open up training programs in a demand market, economics will hopefully drive graduates to where the jobs are. It is a self correcting mechanism. Even with 80 new programs, demand will continue to rise into the foreseeable future. Programs will stop training PAs when students stop paying tuition to attend them. This train left the station a long time ago. If we don't fill all the jobs that are and will become available, others will.

 

I think it is good news

 

remember we need more PA's (as wren and stimpy say to take over the world...)

Seriously more numbers is a good thing, more people playing a role in the delivery of health care

 

in short More = Better

 

if we coulg jsut get AAPA to realize that we need to have more of a collaboration setting and more independence in the rural areas that the doc's dont go.....

 

Oh yeah and primary care doc's are not over paid, but primary care PA's sure are.....

 

 

 

I am of the opinion that the continued influx of students who lack previous health care experience will force the PA profession to change their education model. In previous years, the vast majority of PAs graduated PA school with thousands of hours of "direct hands on experience "on top of what they learned in school. They could quickly integrate into a variety of settings and were accustomed to improvising, adapting, and overcoming. Now, students are proving themselves academically adept at passing tests after studying for a prolonged period of time focused on a very stringent, narrow column of information. (blueprint exams set forth by the NCCPA). I personally believe the development of CAQ exams and the rapid rise in residency programs are a direct correlation to the declining amount of previous HCE that students have.

.

 

this is merely a fact - we need to have post grad internships and residency's set up (shorter then doc's) but I, even as a PA, would decline being treated by a new grad 22 year old in a critical situation.....

 

also, would like a 1 year post grad internship/residency for internal medicine that gives us less dependence on the doc...

[jdobbs]

i would rather not wait the decade for these negative feedback mechanisms to take place. An entire generation will have a negative professional experience.

 

And you do not have to be a sophisticated, motivated, and accomplished PA to pass the PANCE. I see plenty of people in practice now that are not so impressive. Just spoke with an ED PA, as I am on call this week, who sounded GOOD SCHOOLS help produce GOOD PA's and the PANCE performance can certainly help suggest if a school is good ... but medicine is MUCH MORE than a multiple choice test. And being able to interact with patients, clinicians and get a quality patient outcome takes a type of pedigree that does much more than helps someone pass a test.

 

I agree completely. I despise multiple choice tests. They are modeled after the pance and do not test your ability to critically think. When I took a&p at a community college the tests were "trace a drop of blood from left atrium to left atrium" or "someone is shot in upper left quadrant, what could be injured". Those are easy questions now, but as an inexperience guy right out of hs, it made you think. I'm thankful that my program is preparing me for the pance, after all no pance=no pa... But I'm starting to realize that if I study to make an A on the test, I do not learn the material.

 

Now for HCE... I'm not sure what has already been said, but HCE does not equal increases chance passing pance, therefore programs do not value it much. High GPA equals increased chance of passing pance. It sucks, because IMO higher (real HCE) equals better PA, but until programs have a reason to recruit students with HCE, nothing is going to change

[True Anomaly]

Okay...I can't sit back anymore and let these inaccuracies continue.

 

 

 

I think it is good news

 

remember we need more PA's (as wren and stimpy say to take over the world...)

 

Come on, man! It was PINKY AND THE BRAIN who wanted to take over the world! Ren and Stimpy wouldn't have been able to take over a living room, let alone the world.

 

 

Just bringing a little levity to the discussion... :;;D:

[PACProvider]

 

The AMA vis a vis the Flexner report closed a ton of medical schools. Which is why there are only roughly 6,000 more medical students enrolled today, then there were in 1910 when the report was published....

 

 

Physasst makes two interesting contributions to this discussion.

 

I would add to his first remark that the Flexner report was motivated by fear of AMA from encroachment on the practice space by alternative providers. At that time, the two "threats" to M.D.s were Osteopathic Medicine and Homeopathic Medicine. In my opinion, the report forced the Osteopathic Medicine field to define a standard of medical education. It also forced a dichotomy of practice (Osteopathic vs Allopathic residency and Osteopathic vs Allopathic Hospitals). Legal battles (primarily in California) on anti-trust grounds increased their credibility and practice space. Market forces (high fixed costs being spread over declining number of patients referred to Osteopathic hospital), forced D.O. profession to have a truce with the MD or Allopathic world. Today, very few D.O. grads (I believe less than 30% but I am quoting from an old source without verifying here) will enter Osteopathic Residency. There is much to learn about our own future as PAs by understanding the role of the AMA and MD brand protection efforts. As PAs, we are often so busy with our daily practice responsibilities that we cannot create strategy for a better future. I applaud the "PAs for Tomorrow" as an acknowledgment that we have a real problem to solve. I am hoping they can do more in this regard.

 

Physasst also notes that "competition for jobs is a good thing." Actually, it is a good thing for management. It is detrimental for labor. I could agree with this statement if other practitioners operated on the same principle. In my opinion, M.D. (and D.O.s) do not compete because the supply of doctors is carefully controlled. Thus, they can command higher salaries. NPs are produced in large numbers but I would question whether they compete when they have many shops that will not hire PAs because the facility is run by nursing management. They also don't compete when they have different (more lenient) supervision requirements. So, competition is good if EVERYONE has to compete. Giving my competitors an economic advantage over PAs and asserting the PAs must compete in the marketplace doesn't recognize the realities of the protected markets that exist in healthcare.

[maryfran123]

I agree completely. I despise multiple choice tests. They are modeled after the pance and do not test your ability to critically think. When I took a&p at a community college the tests were "trace a drop of blood from left atrium to left atrium" or "someone is shot in upper left quadrant, what could be injured". Those are easy questions now, but as an inexperience guy right out of hs, it made you think. I'm thankful that my program is preparing me for the pance, after all no pance=no pa... But I'm starting to realize that if I study to make an A on the test, I do not learn the material.

 

Now for HCE... I'm not sure what has already been said, but HCE does not equal increases chance passing pance, therefore programs do not value it much. High GPA equals increased chance of passing pance. It sucks, because IMO higher (real HCE) equals better PA, but until programs have a reason to recruit students with HCE, nothing is going to change

 

The overall premise of this post is incorrect in several ways.

 

First off, in the early days of the profession and PANCE, it was HCE that matterred to the admission committee of a PA program much more so than high GPAs.

Seems like all of these early PA's with low GPAs but high numbers of HCE did a fine job passing the PANCE, becoming exceptional PA's, growing the profession, increasing duties, responsibilities and expectations for the profession, being ground breakers in physician practices, hospitals, networks all without having a high GPA.

 

The high GPA, low HCE criteria that is seen today is a recent development in the last 8-10yrs because it does correlate to passage rate of the PANCE.

 

Here is the kicker: in todays world I would not even be considered for a seat in a PA classroom. I went into PA school age 20, fair amount of HCE, a decent GPA decent number credits in bio, adv bio, A&P, dissection labs, but NO physics, NO general chemistry, NO higher level maths, NO O-chem.

I scored in the top 1% of the nation when I took PANCE with a near perfect score, find PA school to be a breeze, not requiring much work on my end, I have been the first PA in most of my jobs, and am the assistant director of one of the first Trauma/CC PA fellowships.

 

The point of all this, do I think I am special. NO!!!! I think as a profession, the emphasis on GPA, hard sciences, master's degrees etc is more a reflection of the professional demographic becoming so much younger, with far less HCE.

I think that the admission processs, unfortunately, weeds out too many people that would make great PA's but are never given the chance because of the current requirements are too harsh of a screening too.

 

just my mypoic view of the PA world.

[jdobbs]

The high GPA, low HCE criteria that is seen today is a recent development in the last 8-10yrs because it does correlate to passage rate of the PANCE.

 

maryfran,

 

I do not see where our statements contradict each other? I am talking about today's standards.

 

Your right, the old PAs did great on the PANCE (and probably are better PAs), but remember the PANCE in those days had an intensive skills checkoff section. This further proves OUR point that HCE does not equal passing TODAY'S PANCE.

 

Congrats on scoring in the top 1%

[physasst]

 

Physasst also notes that "competition for jobs is a good thing." Actually, it is a good thing for management. It is detrimental for labor. I could agree with this statement if other practitioners operated on the same principle. In my opinion, M.D. (and D.O.s) do not compete because the supply of doctors is carefully controlled. Thus, they can command higher salaries. NPs are produced in large numbers but I would question whether they compete when they have many shops that will not hire PAs because the facility is run by nursing management. They also don't compete when they have different (more lenient) supervision requirements. So, competition is good if EVERYONE has to compete. Giving my competitors an economic advantage over PAs and asserting the PAs must compete in the marketplace doesn't recognize the realities of the protected markets that exist in healthcare.

 

I was thinking of this from an administration perspective, not labor. Additionally, from a patient perspective, I would rather know that the PA or NP I was seeing went through a very competitive process to secure that job.

 

You do make some very good points about physicians and NPs, and I agree with your perspective to a degree, but I've always thought that the lack of competition breeds mediocrity.

 

Mike

[CAdamsPAC]

Yeah, I'd like to know the answer to that too. While I have a doctorate, 2 Master's, and a B.S.. I started practice as a graduate of an Associates program.

 

Methinks you might want to be careful with that line of thinking. Many of us older PAs were passing board exams, setting a high clinical example, fighting for clinical privileges, getting prescriptive rights, loosening supervisory restrictions, establishing the profession with physicians, and basically MAKING THE PROFESSION what it is today all with only Associates degrees.

 

Remember that the PA profession is still competency based. We are NOT a degree based profession (although SADLY, we are moving in that direction, which IMO is the WRONG direction) and we do not state that a PA graduate from a certificate, associates, bachelors, or masters program is different clinically from any other PA graduate. We all take the SAME PANCE/PANRE exam regardless of what initials we have behind our name.

 

I enjoyed my AS PA program, and it was hardly "easy". Additionally, I graduated with only 16k in student loans. Not many MS graduates can say that.

 

2 years is 2 years is 2 years. AS= prerequisites prior to the program and then 2 years PA school. BS= 2 years general studies/prereqs, and then 2 years PA school. MS= undergraduate degree and then 2 years PA school......

 

The degree awarded is meaningless. I've never ONCE in all my years as a PA had a physician ever ask me what degree I had as a PA....not once. They don't care. But, I'd be interested in your reply....

 

 

 

Ditto to the extreme!

[CAdamsPAC]

The overall premise of this post is incorrect in several ways.

 

First off, in the early days of the profession and PANCE, it was HCE that matterred to the admission committee of a PA program much more so than high GPAs.

Seems like all of these early PA's with low GPAs but high numbers of HCE did a fine job passing the PANCE, becoming exceptional PA's, growing the profession, increasing duties, responsibilities and expectations for the profession, being ground breakers in physician practices, hospitals, networks all without having a high GPA.

 

The high GPA, low HCE criteria that is seen today is a recent development in the last 8-10yrs because it does correlate to passage rate of the PANCE.

 

Here is the kicker: in todays world I would not even be considered for a seat in a PA classroom. I went into PA school age 20, fair amount of HCE, a decent GPA decent number credits in bio, adv bio, A&P, dissection labs, but NO physics, NO general chemistry, NO higher level maths, NO O-chem.

I scored in the top 1% of the nation when I took PANCE with a near perfect score, find PA school to be a breeze, not requiring much work on my end, I have been the first PA in most of my jobs, and am the assistant director of one of the first Trauma/CC PA fellowships.

 

The point of all this, do I think I am special. NO!!!! I think as a profession, the emphasis on GPA, hard sciences, master's degrees etc is more a reflection of the professional demographic becoming so much younger, with far less HCE.

I think that the admission processs, unfortunately, weeds out too many people that would make great PA's but are never given the chance because of the current requirements are too harsh of a screening too.

 

just my mypoic view of the PA world.

 

Agree so very much!

[EMEDPA]

I think that the admission processs, unfortunately, weeds out too many people that would make great PA's but are never given the chance because of the current requirements are too harsh of a screening too.

 

just my mypoic view of the PA world.

 

totally agree with this

[marie926]

This certainly is troublesome news to anyone going into (or currently in) the PA profession - I will be starting school in the fall. Perhaps a good way to force current weak programs to step up their game (or step out entirely) as well as to filter out weak prospective programs would be to make the accreditation process much more rigorous. In my research of PA schools as I began the application process, I wondered how some of the current programs are able to produce PAs that are qualified and prepared for the job. Perhaps PA school should also become more standardized in terms of qualifications/prerequisites for entry (as medical school is).

 

On one end of the spectrum, though... as interest in the PA profession increases, so does the competition for spots in schools. Do we want the PA profession to become something where only those with years of clinical experience and multiple degrees will be competitive enough for PA school? Don't get me wrong, I have several years of clinical experience and a master's degree - but after initially considering medical school, I noticed a trend over the years in that the average age for med school is becoming older and older with competitive applicants having more and more credentials. I mean, who can live off of a CNA salary for several years after college - only those with supportive parents or partners/spouses to help make ends meet. If the PA profession went this way, then it would be very difficult for those living on their own to compete.

 

Some of those school listed will, I'm sure, produce excellent PA programs - particularly those with established health programs or medical schools. Some states, such as Massachusetts, have excellent schools but only a couple PA programs - so it's nice to see that BU is starting one. Tufts just started a program last year. I think these school will be an excellent addition to the current list of PA schools. As for other programs, I would agree with SocialMedicine in that they will probably not produce PAs that are representative of the field (or they will, and that will be disastrous). Cutting off the number of schools that create programs, however, does nothing in terms of current programs.

[rcdavis]

Mf,

we have been having these conversations for 8 years.. And the subject of HCE has been the point of a plethora of forum threads...

 

I guess we are like those physicians which created their own boards.. They too, though founders of their specialties, were themselves not boarded.. And, unless they were allowed to "grandfather" in, they could not qualify for to work in the specialty they created...

 

There seem to be conflicting or competing forces here:

 

The members of the profession wanting to remain as seen highly trained and competitive, and perceive increasing numbers as diluting their pool of HCE "adequate" persons and

 

The desire of schools to grab increasingly available amounts of cash by expanding their pa pool.

 

You are proof that there are exceptions to the high HCE requirement so many of us have... So there must be others..

 

So, how to resolve there conflicts?

 

I would suggest one answer might be to try and get more senior PAs, ESPECIALLY those who are non academic and who have been in the employment side of the trenches ( and who have to have developed a sense of what a sucessful pa "smells" like, so to speak ) on the admission committees.

 

Given that the schools will continue to pump out grads as fast as possible, and that they are becoming more and more inflexible in their desire for "marks" over merit, and given that our professions roots are non traditional, perhaps seeding the ADCOMs with guys and gals like us, whose goal might be to increase the root strength of the profession by picking mature over marks.. And offsetting marks for HCE.

 

I think that UNC chapel hill, in creating a PA school primarily focused on delta force medics, has the right idea.

 

Previous efforts to do what I have suggested at wake forest have failed miserably.. Perky over performance was the rule for the early 2000s...

 

Personally, I would like to see OChem, physics, and some of the hard science courses excused from the prerecs of every applicatant at a rate of one course for every, say 1000 hours of true HCE accumulated...

 

Also, no applicants under 23 years old.

 

Seems to be a far compromise...

 

Okay, I am straying..

 

What are your thoughts about infiltrating the ADCOMS, and trying to affect the end product from within?

[Just Steve]

Educational programs are oft ran as fiefdoms. To get inside one has to conform to the whims of the director. Find the director that share your ideals would be key. However, that director has to conform to the pressures of the university board. The board is interested in making money and looking good on reviews so they can attract more applicants, making more money....so I am not so sure it will be easy to infiltrate...especially without the trappings of academia alphabet soup trailing behind your name.

 

It is a bit more extreme but what of the idea of preceptors only taking students with HCE? If programs cannot secure rotations due to the type of student they admit, maybe the school will change their admission criteria?

[delco714]

Also, no applicants under 23 years old

 

Uh oh! Looks like I'm going to be a terrible PA when i graduate with my MSPA in May at 23yo.

 

In reality, I tend to agree that most young-20s PA students aren't the best. I like to think I'm the exception not the rule...

[EMEDPA]

there are 22 yr olds with 5 yrs of experience and they would make fine applicants...the typical 22 yr old though has very little hce.

I know some folks who started working in healthcare at 17 or 18, worked through college and had some solid skills by 22. I would have no problem with looking at those folks. a lot of folks who opted out of the 4 yr college plan and did military or civilian medic and picked up an a.s. along the way also are excellent candidates for b.s. level programs. U.WA/medex still offers this option.

Davis- look at the program starting at gardner-webb university in NC. the director is a good friend of mine. he is looking at folks with real world experience and plans on putting them through rotations in inner city/underserved/rural areas. he is a former Air Force survival instructor and em pa for many years. he posts here as Knappy.

[EMEDPA]

Educational programs are oft ran as fiefdoms. To get inside one has to conform to the whims of the director. Find the director that share your ideals would be key. However, that director has to conform to the pressures of the university board. The board is interested in making money and looking good on reviews so they can attract more applicants, making more money....so I am not so sure it will be easy to infiltrate...especially without the trappings of academia alphabet soup trailing behind your name.

 

It is a bit more extreme but what of the idea of preceptors only taking students with HCE? If programs cannot secure rotations due to the type of student they admit, maybe the school will change their admission criteria?

the problem is that today many directors come out of the young/no hce/strong academics mold. last time I went to help interview applicants at an admissions day at a local program(not yours) none of my recommended applicants were accepted and the folks they did take I said "no" to almost across the board. but it didn't matter. I was outvoted. they all talked about "potential" while I was talking about hce and proven track record.

[jdtpac]

there are 22 yr olds with 5 yrs of experience and they would make fine applicants...the typical 22 yr old though has very little hce.

Davis- look at the program starting at gardner-webb university in NC. the director is a good friend of mine. he is looking at folks with real world experience and plans on putting them through rotations in inner city/underserved/rural areas. he is a former Air Force survival instructor and em pa for many years. he posts here as Knappy.

 

EMEDPA: Because of your last post, I wanted to learn more about Gardner-Webb University, as I mentioned in my post many of the new generation PA programs are going into small liberal arts college/university. It is faith-based institution located in North Carolina. Interestingly, they has 3 nursing programs in their graduate school, two Masters degree that concentrate in administration and education, and a DNP program for clinical doctorate. There was nothing mentioning a PA program but I imagine there would not be anything because they have not received there provisional accreditation. I know there are many larger institutions that have both PA and APN programs(generally both award Masters degrees) in the same school. I'm not sure if it's true in smaller colleges/university. It will be interesting to see how these 2 groups managed to work together in the same institution, especially with the uniqueness of this university having the DNP program. Good luck!

[EMEDPA]

PROGRAM SET TO ACCEPT STUDENTS IN JANUARY 2014

 

Boiling Springs, N.C.—University officials have announced that Gardner-Webb will launch a physician assistant program beginning January 2014. The program will help fill the healthcare industry’s need for primary care providers by training medical professionals for the primary care field. Dr. Gregory Davenport, a physician assistant with a doctorate in health science, is the newly hired dean and program director.

 

The program will last 27 months and will be broken into two parts. During the first 15 months, students will take classes five days a week, for approximately eight hours a day. The second half of the program will feature hands-on learning experiences in local hospitals and doctors’ offices.

Davenport is an internationally known author, speaker and wilderness survival expert. He. has served in the United States Air Forceas a survival, evasion, resistance and escape specialist (SERE), been an emergency medicine physician assistant in extremely remote locations, and has even hosted his own show on the History Channel. Although Davenport has lived a highly adventurous and successful life in the limelight, he calls this opportunity a “higher calling.”

“Right now I’m focused on creating a faith-based physician assistant program here at Gardner-Webb,” he said.

Davenport said the physician assistant program at Gardner-Webb will return to the fundamentals of the PA profession—diagnosing and treating common medical conditions under physician supervision. “Our goal is to get PAs back into that primary care arena, and help close that gap between access to care and patient demand. To make this happen, Gardner-Webb’s PA program aims to expand the healing gifts that Gardner-Webb students already possess.”

For more information about the program, contact Gregory Davenport at 704-406-2326 or gdavenport@gardner-webb.edu.

Located in Boiling Springs, N.C., Gardner-Webb University blends a liberal arts core curriculum with more than 55 major and minor professional programs of study, a comprehensive academic experience that flows from our Christian commitment to intellectual freedom, service and leadership.

[jdtpac]

Thanks for that information.these are the types of programs we need, and I know you are hard-core when it comes to wanting individuals with a lot of prior HCE,the DNP program has a 1000 hour clinical requirement to get into the program, you know if this program will be requiring HCE?

[EMEDPA]

you know if this program will be requiring HCE?

YES, several thousand hrs.

don't know what they settled on for the final # but would be very surprised if it was less than 2000 hrs of significant responsibility direct hce.

I believe he was shooting for medics, rn's, rt's, military medics and corpsmen, etc.

Greg is a great speaker and very good at motivating students to achieve their best. I expect great things from this program.

[physasst]

YES, several thousand hrs.

don't know what they settled on for the final # but would be very surprised if it was less than 2000 hrs of significant responsibility direct hce.

I believe he was shooting for medics, rn's, rt's, military medics and corpsmen, etc.

Greg is a great speaker and very good at motivating students to achieve their best. I expect great things from this program.

 

Yeah, Greg was one of my doctoral classmates and he's a great guy. Interesting cat with his survival background.....

[EMEDPA]

Yeah, Greg was one of my doctoral classmates and he's a great guy. Interesting cat with his survival background.....

yup, he and I used to trail run together. he could always get the best performance out of me. we would run a grueling 6 mile course with 3000 feet of elevation gain in 52 minutes and he would say "awesome job, let's shoot for 50 minutes next week".

[asterlington]

I love this forum discussion and I feel compelled to take a moment to vent!

 

I have just recently completed the application and interview process for MEDEX bachelor's program, I was honored to have been chosen to interview but was not ultimately offered a seat in the upcoming class. Of course I am disappointed and discouraged but I'm dusting myself off and moving on. What I'm struggling with most is that at 46 yrs of age, with 15+ years of solid hce (along side 3 PA'S), awesome references, total support from my employers and community, good grades (recently completed as I left my full time job to pursue my degree), that in a matter of minutes a panel of virtual strangers decided the outcome. It really makes me wonder, I for one would absolutely have never, ever decided to take this on if I didn't believe that I could and would be successful. This is not my first go around, I have raised children, lost loved ones, overcome adversity, experienced my own, as well as shared in others grief and growth. I know that I am good at what I do and that I have something to offer, or I promise I wouldn't be here making this application. Becoming a PA isn't just a quick career solution (based on my ability to perform in the classroom), or my best guess at a multiple choice question, I can't tell you how many times I have heard "maybe I'll just go to PA school or something"....For me becoming a PA means being the best that I can be, with the hopes of being useful in a world where there is so much need. It's an opportunity to utilize my innate skills and passions as a part of this dynamic process that we call healthcare, where in my opinion, the need for people called to this profession is greater than ever! It is my chance to acquire the skills necessary in marrying my heart and my head in the artful craft of caring for another, in building on that foundation which I have worked so hard to construct. Yes, it is all of those things but......no one even asked me, and alas I was not selected. It was not because I didn't meet the requirements, because I did and I do, and I believe in my heart of hearts that if it were I, or one of my loved ones, I would want a person like me providing my care. The difficult thing now is trying to determine what the likelihood is that I will ever get in....not too much is going to change for me between now and May and despite my compulsion to keep at it and keep at it and keep at it.......it isn't all about me! Sooner than later my family is going to need me to have some sort of a solid plan, I am going to need to get back to work and it just may be in a different capacity than what I had originally dreamed.

 

Anywhooo....thank you for letting me vent! It's true that there are many, many things that cannot be bought or taught despite ones GPA and/or paper qualifications.

[Friction]

Mf,

we have been having these conversations for 8 years.. And the subject of HCE has been the point of a plethora of forum threads...

 

I guess we are like those physicians which created their own boards.. They too, though founders of their specialties, were themselves not boarded.. And, unless they were allowed to "grandfather" in, they could not qualify for to work in the specialty they created...

 

There seem to be conflicting or competing forces here:

 

The members of the profession wanting to remain as seen highly trained and competitive, and perceive increasing numbers as diluting their pool of HCE "adequate" persons and

 

The desire of schools to grab increasingly available amounts of cash by expanding their pa pool.

 

You are proof that there are exceptions to the high HCE requirement so many of us have... So there must be others..

 

So, how to resolve there conflicts?

 

I would suggest one answer might be to try and get more senior PAs, ESPECIALLY those who are non academic and who have been in the employment side of the trenches ( and who have to have developed a sense of what a sucessful pa "smells" like, so to speak ) on the admission committees.

 

Given that the schools will continue to pump out grads as fast as possible, and that they are becoming more and more inflexible in their desire for "marks" over merit, and given that our professions roots are non traditional, perhaps seeding the ADCOMs with guys and gals like us, whose goal might be to increase the root strength of the profession by picking mature over marks.. And offsetting marks for HCE.

 

I think that UNC chapel hill, in creating a PA school primarily focused on delta force medics, has the right idea.

 

Previous efforts to do what I have suggested at wake forest have failed miserably.. Perky over performance was the rule for the early 2000s...

 

Personally, I would like to see OChem, physics, and some of the hard science courses excused from the prerecs of every applicatant at a rate of one course for every, say 1000 hours of true HCE accumulated...

 

Also, no applicants under 23 years old.

 

Seems to be a far compromise...

 

Okay, I am straying..

 

What are your thoughts about infiltrating the ADCOMS, and trying to affect the end product from within?

 

I think if this program is going to set a specific goal to help military medical personal it shouldn't be limited to Army medics. I've know quite a few Navy Corpsman IDCs and AirForce PJs who damn well have training equal if not superior to Army 18d. Just because the Army is the preeminent military force does not mean they should be the only special forces medics able to apply to a program, especially when your motto is set on helping vets.

[rcdavis]

there are 22 yr olds with 5 yrs of experience and they would make fine applicants...the typical 22 yr old though has very little hce.

I know some folks who started working in healthcare at 17 or 18, worked through college and had some solid skills by 22. I would have no problem with looking at those folks. a lot of folks who opted out of the 4 yr college plan and did military or civilian medic and picked up an a.s. along the way also are excellent candidates for b.s. level programs. U.WA/medex still offers this option.

Davis- look at the program starting at gardner-webb university in NC. the director is a good friend of mine. he is looking at folks with real world experience and plans on putting them through rotations in inner city/underserved/rural areas. he is a former Air Force survival instructor and em pa for many years. he posts here as Knappy.

 

E,

I am apparently on his resource list for lecturers.