Most women make more as PA's than doctors

[aprillh]

http://scienceblog.com/55548/most-women-make-more-as-physician-assistants-than-as-docs/

 

Women who go to medical school just for the financial rewards of being a doctor could be making a mistake, according to a study published in the Journal of Human Capital.

 

The research found that after factoring in the high upfront costs of becoming a doctor, most women primary-care doctors would have made more money over their careers becoming physician assistants instead. For the median man on the other hand, becoming a doctor pays a substantial premium over becoming a PA.

 

Two factors drive the results, say the study’s authors, M. Keith Chen and Judith Chevalier of the Yale School of Management. First, there’s a wage gap; women doctors earn a lower hourly wage than male doctors. But the most important factor is that most women doctors do not work enough hours to make their expensive training pay off compared to PAs.

 

 

Physician assistant makes more than doc?

“One of the takeaways here is it’s not all wage gap,” Chevalier said. “It’s mostly an hours gap. Many women who become doctors simply don’t work enough hours to amortize the upfront costs. It’s also true for some men, but a much smaller fraction.”

 

Make more money as a physician assistant

Chen and Chevalier used data on thousands of doctors and PAs from the Robert Wood Johnson Community Tracking Physician Survey and the American Academy of Physician Assistants. The data included wages and hours worked for males and females in both professions. The researchers used those data to calculate the net present value of each occupation, taking into consideration the training costs in time and money for both professions. Net present value (NPV) is a calculation economists use to determine whether the gains from a long-term venture are worth the costs.

 

For men, becoming a doctor is a far better deal than becoming a PA. The NPV of becoming a doctor for the median male was around $2.3 million, while the value of becoming PA was around $1.9 million. But for the median woman, becoming a doctor offers no such advantage. The NPV for women of becoming a doctor was about $1.67 million, while the NPV of becoming PA was $1.68 million.

 

Most of the male/female NPV disparity is driven by the fact that women doctors tend to work fewer hours than male doctors in the prime of their careers. Early in their careers male and female doctors work similar hours, the researchers found. But between the ages of 31-35, the median male doctor works 50 hours per week while the median female works 40. And a gap in hours worked remains through age 55.

 

The results add to a growing literature suggesting that women may be overinvesting in professional degrees, the researchers say. The question is why women invest in these degrees when higher returns can be found elsewhere.

 

It could be, Chevalier says, that women simply perceive that being a doctor will be more satisfying work. But it’s also possible that women “don’t foresee the extent to which they’re going to cut back working when they have kids.”

 

“There are lots of reasons the decision to be a doctor could be rational,” she adds. “But for the median woman, it doesn’t make financial sense.”

[chatcat]

Amazing that in 2012 we still have such gaps in fair pay among genders for any profession. Thanks for the share.

[chiaroscuro27]

Very interesting, although not surprising.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Didn't the article do a good job of explaining why that gap exists? It's about the average hours worked by each of the genders. I'm actually encouraged by the fact that that particular gender pay gap is actually one that is entirely variable according to the individuals in question.

 

Agreed. The article seemed to illustrate that the pay gap is small, but the real difference was that women worked 10 less hours per week during middle age years. Also, if men are working more hours, they are probably getting promoted and raised faster which can account for a pay gap.

[rev ronin]

Amazing that in 2012 we still have such gaps in fair pay among genders for any profession. Thanks for the share.

 

From the Article:

 

Most of the male/female NPV disparity is driven by the fact that women doctors tend to work fewer hours than male doctors in the prime of their careers. Early in their careers male and female doctors work similar hours, the researchers found. But between the ages of 31-35, the median male doctor works 50 hours per week while the median female works 40. And a gap in hours worked remains through age 55.

 

 

As I read the article, the pay disparity seems to have more to do with work/life balance than earnings-per-hour disparity. Are you suggesting that women are forced by employers into less-than-full-time positions, vs. choosing such positions themselves?

[Guest Paula]

Women chose the positions they want. I know several female doctors who chose to work less hours so they can be home more with their children. I know female doctors who have completely left their profession for an extended period of time to raise the kids. They have been coming back into the Urgent Care field when they return to work to brush up on their skills, and may stay in the field to take advantage of 12 hours shifts, 3 days a week. I don't see this as a pay disparity at all, but a life choice.

[Sara Wajek]

"Net present value (NPV) is a calculation economists use to determine whether the gains from a long-term venture are worth the costs."

"The NPV for women of becoming a doctor was about $1.67 million, while the NPV of becoming PA was $1.68 million."

 

Does anyone know if this takes into account the number of hours worked? I was assume (and I could be very wrong) that the female PAs would have to be working significantly more hours per week than female MDs for these numbers to be so similar. The entire article seems very misleading. I feel like it's telling women not to bother becoming a doc because you'll make just as much as a PA, but doesn't really explain why female PAs have the same NPV as female MDs. The article seemed more focused on explaining the wage disparity between male and female MDs.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

I thought it explained it well. They took into account the cost of the degree, hours both worked, and wage. For the cost of the degree compared to wage and hours worked, it is more economical to be a PA, barely. You can't put a price on the autonomy and the article states there are more than economical reasons for a woman to be an MD.

 

What it says to me is the same thing any male or female doc will tell you. Don't get into medicine for money.

[jdenning]

In many group practices, part time physician partners are still required to contribute the same overhead as the full time partners, so there is unfortunately little incentive to work part time and it definitely means the take home pay is less. Our practice has now lost 2 part time female physicians because of this. One told me that I (as a part time PA) make more than she does. It's sad that things have to be so difficult to practice part time. I work part time myself and even as a non partner PA it is difficult.

[rev ronin]

In many group practices, part time physician partners are still required to contribute the same overhead as the full time partners, so there is unfortunately little incentive to work part time and it definitely means the take home pay is less. Our practice has now lost 2 part time female physicians because of this. One told me that I (as a part time PA) make more than she does. It's sad that things have to be so difficult to practice part time. I work part time myself and even as a non partner PA it is difficult.

I wonder if the practice partnership agreement is structured that way because it is advantageous to the full-time partners to have PAs rather than part-time physicians? Because if the rules are different and more advantageous to PAs, then I'm guessing there's a reason it's allowed to *be* that way.

[jdenning]

No, it's think it's more pragmatic than that. A physician can certainly work part time, but the phone still rings on the days that they are not there and both front office and back office staff are still doing work for them. So I get it that many practices still require their part time partners to make a full time contribution to overhead but at the same time I know first hand the struggle that female providers have between home and work.

 

One of our full time female physicians is leaving our practice at the end of August to stay home full time with her kids. I asked her how she could consider doing that especially after making the commitment to medical school, residency, and then fellowship and she told me that she didn't know she would feel this way until she had her kids. I think it's really sad that she's leaving.

[physasst]

Amazing that in 2012 we still have such gaps in fair pay among genders for any profession. Thanks for the share.

 

Yep, and there was a fair pay (pay equality bill) that went before the Senate just a few months ago and was killed.....

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2012-06-05/equal-pay-women-senate-vote/55400316/1

 

Guess paying women equally isn't a fair thing to do......ridiculous...

[ToppDog]

Crappy article comparing apples to oranges. This is what passes for journalism these days.

[physasst]

Wait, what about the Lilly Ledbetter fair pay act? Didn't that get passed a while ago? Oh wait, they needed a new way to project a "war on women".

 

Lily Ledbetter only allowed women the right to sue over pay inequality. Before that, women were limited in pursuing legal remedies....it did not however mandate that women get paid the same. Nor did it mandate, as this new legislation would have, that employers would have to PROVE why the gap existed.

 

There is no reason why a woman with a similar education and experience should not get paid exactly the same as a man.

 

BTW, I'm not blaming any particular party or making this "political" here. MERELY noting, that there was recent legislation to address this and it was killed in the Senate.

[Sara Wajek]

So you didn't read the article posted by the op that explained the pay gap? Women generally do make the same as men if they work full time in the same position.

 

From the article: First, there’s a wage gap; women doctors earn a lower hourly wage than male doctors.

[physasst]

So you didn't read the article posted by the op that explained the pay gap? Women generally do make the same as men if they work full time in the same position. That bill put the onus on every employer to prove that this is the case, adding regulation and liability for trial lawyers to thrive on.

 

There's still a gender gap in employment nationally. It's not the only gap and both sides misrepresent it. It's frequently cited as women make 81 cents for every dollar that men make, but that isn't really true. It's multifactorial, but as this article from Forbes states, there's still a 7.6 cent difference that could be related to gender as it cannot be explained in any other fashion.....

 

Might not sound like much, but with all other things being equal (Hours, job title, experience, etc.) it would mean that a female PA or physician would make 92,400 compared to a male making 100,000. That's a fair chunk of change.

 

To claim that a gender bias is the causation of the entire wage gap is disingenuous, but to claim that there is no gender bias is just as disingenuous.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/21/mind-the-malefemale-income-gap-but-dont-exaggerate-it/

[chatcat]

From the Article:

 

 

 

As I read the article, the pay disparity seems to have more to do with work/life balance than earnings-per-hour disparity. Are you suggesting that women are forced by employers into less-than-full-time positions, vs. choosing such positions themselves?

 

Not at all....but I also have seen the wage discrepancies for both full time male and female PAs through aapa surveys. Although some might have lower salaries due to lifestyle choices of less hours worked, there remains a baseline disaparity in salaries for all full time PAs.

The diference bewteen male and female salaries is 15% as reported in a 2011 poll .

This disparity extends through both clinical practices and academics with female salaries always lagging behind. There is a pay gap among genders in the PA profession and it's much more than a "small" amount or due to less hours worked.

 

Reference:Coplan B, Essary AC, Virden TB, Cawley J, Stoehr JD. Salary Discrepancies

Between Practicing Male and Female Physician Assistants. Womens Health

Issues 2011

[EMEDPA]

Don't you think this might also have to do with selection of specialty though?

maybe more guys are doing em and surgery at high pay and more women are doing peds, fp, and ob at low pay(?)

I have never seen a job posted that said "male pa 95k, female pa 82k".

you make what you accept. don't take less than you know you are worth.

[marvi1kd]

It is very sad indeed that there is still a gender wage gap in our country among all different types of jobs. Even though, being male, I am on the better side of the river so to speak it still bothers me that we can't we have some equality here! :) A question we could ask is why are Ob/gyn, fp and peds traditionally lower paying specialties than surgery and EM...?

[EMEDPA]

A question we could ask is why are Ob/gyn, fp and peds traditionally lower paying specialties than surgery and EM...?

LESS REIMBURSEMENT FOR SERVICES.

currently the american payment schedule for healthcare values procedures over prevention. that is why spine surgeons make 500k+/yr and fp docs make 175-200 k/yr.

[chatcat]

Don't you think this might also have to do with selection of specialty though?

 

The data I have seen shows that across all specialities wages are lower for females...from Orthopedics to Academics. It's not speciality related nor is it due to less hours worked.

 

I have never seen a job posted that said "male pa 95k, female pa 82k".

 

That wouldn't be politically correct ,would it? (and is illegal)

I've certainly endured my share of gender biases in the workplace in my career ,usually with male dinosaur types....no surprise that this mentality remains and has some influence on wages.

What does surprise me is that we now have well researched,objective data to back-up salary requirements.Both employers and PAs should know what is an expected/acceptable salary.

This is something much more subtle regarding gender bias with salaries...it's not something we are likely to discuss with our work colleagues to even know it is going on. Most employers specifically ban salary discussions among employees so how would this

ever be revealed unless reported in an anonymous survey?

It's indeed a shame this disparity persists for female wages....I hope our younger generation of women don't also face this inequality as they enter the workforce.

[rev ronin]

I hope our younger generation of women don't also face this inequality as they enter the workforce.

 

The part of the disparity that's attributable to women working fewer hours or leaving the workforce to have children, care for children, or care for elders--each of which women do more than men--will never go away. It's all part of the work culture than provides financial rewards for ignoring work/life balance and putting employment ahead of family. It's gender-blind, except that the parts of our culture that disproportionately assign the non-biologically-mandated parts of these roles to women aren't.

 

The subtle bias bits, the 7.6% or whatever that's not attributable to such choices... Not so sure what will happen with those. Given that women are finishing college at a much higher rate than their male peers, we might just see a reversal someday soon.