Guest hubbardtim48 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Not to burst your bubble again PAMAC, but I was not trying to be negative about the program, just thought it was very short (lab hours, clinical hours, as an RN (no time to work as an RN, just pass the NCLEX and move on), etc.). I will attach a copy of the student handbook and direct you to page 90 where ANP/GNP curriculum is shown. I will now talk about why I though less of Vandy (Ivy medical school and university). Total MSN credit hours = 40 over 3 semesters, didactic clock hours = 385, clinical clock hours = 630 and lab clock hours = 42. My school, UND, has shown the test of time. Since 1972 they started putting out PAs, it just might be me, but that is a longgggggggg time and they have always had accreditation that entire time. So, they must be doing something right….? Just to give you a quick concept of the different between Vandy NP and UND PA the first year we have lectures 40 hours a week x 48 weeks = 1,920 didactic hours, almost 5 times as many hours in the first year than Vandy’s entire curriculum, I won’t even go into the second year of didactic (which is around 20 hrs/week x 48 week, you do the math). Our MPAS is a total of 72 credit hours, our lab time I do not know at this point, but we do spend 17 weeks at UND doing lecture, seminars, labs, etc.. I am sure we will do more than one weeks’ worth of lab in those 17 weeks, we do 45 weeks of rotations (in our home town) for 40 hours a week = 1,800 rotation hours (which is 2.85 times more rotation time than Vandy). UND is a different PA school, but being around since the early 70’s means something…. So, if you look at the numbers and compare (not including the types of classes each program takes) then you could come to a conclusion of superiority. Numbers do not lie and if you are going to start critiquing me on all my comments, I will be gladly to waste time to prove my point once again. http://www.nursing.vanderbilt.edu/current/handbook.pdf P.S. I wish there was a research study that compared no HCE to lots of HCE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 12, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 12, 2012 the studies look at an endpoint of pance pass rates. pance is a worthless test since they removed the practicals after 1996. if you fail pance there is a major problem. my study would compare those with at least 10,000 hrs of high level experience (say a typical uwa/medex student) to those with less then 500 hrs of low level experience for both ends of the spectrum. the question sent to the sp's of 500 grads from each pathway would be this: on a scale of 0-10 with 10 being best how would you categorize the ability of your new pa to fit into the practice with minimal demands on your time for teaching and review of basic concepts?(basically how well was your new pa able to safely "hit the ground running" from day 1?). looking at only working grads who passed pa school and pance and are licensed in theory takes out all those who were not academically fit to practice. I think that study would favor those with experience by a factor of at least 2:1...and this study will never be done because if well supported and published it would make 75% of today's pa grads look unsuitable for entry level employment as their safety in 1st yr of practice #s would not compare to their more experienced "peers". part of my job for the last 15 years has been to orient new grad pa's to the various depts I have worked in. guess which group fits into the practice culture faster, makes fewer errors, has a better safety record, sees more pts and requires less input from me and the other senior providers? ( I am happy to teach anybody anything I know and can do so in person without "attitude" but I am often thinking to myself with some folks "why don't you know this very basic information? how did you pass pa school and the pance without knowing you don't give aspirin/ibuprofen routinely in the er to folks on coumadin for minor musculoskeletal pain, those big st segment elevations on the ekg are not nl, you don't need to call ophtho about every corneal abrasion, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Nothing has done into my head, just the facts that I am stating about PA programs compared to NP programs. EMEDPAs comment is just another opinion and I have not read his comments so I can not discuss to him about my program. Again, 1972...not a new program and it has stood the test of time. The only difference between UND and another traditional program is that we don't have face to face interactions on a daily basis. I learn the same things I learned in my undergrad and masters as I am doing with PA school. I don't study any different nor do I absorb less information. We have all test proctored, do rotations through clinics, hospitals, nursing homes, urgent care, ER, OR and do all of our labs at the UND campus. Show me/tell me the difference in the UND program? PANCE rates slacking....?? NO. So what other criteria would you consider for evaluation of a program? Seems to me that I am not the only one that thinks the program is not slacking....with over 2,000 applicants and 60 accepted...seems to me that just a few people would like to join the "party." I am tired of explaining to you PAMAC the difference of PA vs. NP, my program (UND) and various things. I just think you are mad that you couldn't get into a PA school so your second option was NP school and now your on the ban wagon. For the sake of this forum, the people and my brain, quit communicating to ME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 13, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 13, 2012 I will summarize my issues with und. 1. until recently they only took nurses. what is that? an np program being funded as a pa program. a few years ago they sent me a job announcement for a faculty position there and I laughed at it. as a former paramedic I was not good enough to apply to your program but now you want me to teach there? They have since rectified that error in judgement so earned back some of my respect. 2. gotta say I 'm not a big fan of online courses for a clinical degree(and yes, I know there is on campus time as well. I just think daily interaction with your instructors and peers face to face has value.) the only prior online pa program closed fairly quickly when the pa community turned their backs on it. I understand und generally takes applicants with experience which is a plus. this is just one guys opinion so take it as that. my ranking system for best pa programs in the country would look very different than lots of folks you might ask. doesn't mean either one of us is right or wrong for every applicant in every situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 13, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 13, 2012 I think online is a great format for academic subjects( I'm in a distance doctoral program right now) but could you learn to be a lab tech entirely online or with only a few weekends in the lab? I think clinical education merits face to face lecture and practical exposure. course that's just me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Say what you want about me, but never do I show my credentials (MHSc, RRT, AE-C) I just say that NPs schools and their curriculum lack in having the most prepared practitioners. Again, numbers do not lie and I am just stating a fact one the lack of time they spend in rotations, classroom, labs, etc.. I am sure you could get into a PA program if you really wanted to. There is always someone better, smarter, good looking, tougher, etc. out there in the world and I do not disagree with that. I applied to medical school and PA school and thought PA school was a better fit for me with my new marriage, life style and willing to get into the field and travel the world. So I guess I could be a 2 year med student if I really wanted to be, but did not chose that route. I could careless if people think I am rude or nice, I just tell it how it is and state facts that I back up. UND had a faculty change and the director is different so I am guessing that is where the change from all RNs to other allied health professions has came into play. The change had to happen sometime and UND has followed the traditional PA route since 1972. There are no sour grapes here, I love to discuss issues and prove points. So, I don't know the details of UND and why they changed nor do I care, but over the 6 years they have been doing their research about other allied health professions, they have found out they others to excel greatly and they are changing to accepting every year instead of every other year. BTW 18 out of 60 students are RTs so I guess there is something special. That is the only point you have against UND and it is a fairly poor one, so get use to it that UND is going to stand its ground for years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I know the director has changed and we are they last class of the 6 year trial of "other allied health professions" and they are accepting students every year now instead of every other year. The face to face interaction truly never changed anything to my while in undergrad. nor did me make me a better person/having better grades. We do have 17 weeks at UND campus which I think it ample time for labs and practicums. UND has a minimum requirement of 3 years as a licensed professional (paramedic, RN, RT, AT, OT, PT, med/rad tech, chiro, etc.) so their standards are high for minimum HCE. I just think this is the way of the future and a lot of programs are going to online and it is possible to do labs with 17 weeks of on campus training. How many other programs out there make you be on campus for 17 weeks in a 15 month period? I have an RT professor doing his PhD in Health Science through Nova and I have looked into the program and it has very limited time on campus, but still is a good program from what he has told me. I just think UND has proved that PA school can be somewhat online and be very successful. I just want to enlighten people about this awesome program and wish more people would look into it. P.S. UNDs website is limited on what you can learn about the program so I am trying to help others out! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 13, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 13, 2012 Hub- I am currently in the nova doctoral program and I think it works well for academic content. my arguement was that teaching an academic subject(say health care policy) is different than learning a clinical topic like how to do a knee exam. I know your program has more on campus time than the prior (failed) attempt at distance education done by another school. I also know about the experience requirement which I think is excellent. FWIW I have an ongoing discussion with another clinician here about his program(stanford), which while entirely on campus, in my mind was too short at 15 months total for most of its hx(it is now longer). they have a lot of great grads as I am sure und must as well. our discussions here are really more about "what is the ideal program" vs other issues. opinions vary and that's ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I see your point E, but I was just making sure that you knew a little more about the program. I just think learning cell biology, hematology, etc can be done via internet, but I agree that a knew exam is not going to work via the internet by watching a video. Practice makes perfect and that is what we do for the on campus time is labs, labs, labs. I have not started those yet, just have been told by prior students and staff. We did have a week of UND orientation and got to see the clinic where we will be doing H&P, exams, etc on real humans and also on dummies. We share it with the MD students so it must be good. Good luck in the DHSc and I will probably be joining those ranks in the next few years! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I think online is a great format for academic subjects( I'm in a distance doctoral program right now) but could you learn to be a lab tech entirely online or with only a few weekends in the lab? I think clinical education merits face to face lecture and practical exposure. course that's just me... As you said it depends on the learner but the classroom format is still better Yes you can learn online; I did the MPAS this way, and feel like I got a lot out of it. But for many of those subjects having an expert in the field that I can ask questions of, bounce ideas etc always stimulates discussion and more advanced learning. Furthermore, this benefits both the one student that asked the question but also the 30-50 other students that are listening. And frankly, there's too much at stake in learning clinical medicine to count on the student "getting it" without the feedback mechanisms of face to face didactic. I'm sure there's some papers showing the noninferiority of distance learning but as someone who has done both, the classroom is better by far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 13, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 13, 2012 no argument from me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 13, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 13, 2012 we will be doing H&P, exams, etc on real humans and also on dummies. We share it with the MD students :) I like this better as" we will be doing...on real humans as well as med students"....:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 We do have weekly Wimba sessions (chat room discussions with voice and webcam) in every class. Also, they have a discussion board that is used so if we are not having our wimba session then we can ask questions throughout the week. There is a lot of contact with the professors and they are there mon-fri 8-5 for discussions via webcam, phone, email, discussion board etc. Online will never be 100% face to face because we would have to always be on the webcam, but having weekly sessions in all the classes is enough contact for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 :) haha.....E is a joker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Also, maybe I like online better because I don't have to listen to the "older" students asking 1,000 questions and wasting half of the lecture time! :) I know all the younger peeps out there know what I mean by this statement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mktalon Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 the studies look at an endpoint of pance pass rates. pance is a worthless test since they removed the practicals after 1996. if you fail pance there is a major problem. my study would compare those with at least 10,000 hrs of high level experience (say a typical uwa/medex student) to those with less then 500 hrs of low level experience for both ends of the spectrum. the question sent to the sp's of 500 grads from each pathway would be this: on a scale of 0-10 with 10 being best how would you categorize the ability of your new pa to fit into the practice with minimal demands on your time for teaching and review of basic concepts?(basically how well was your new pa able to safely "hit the ground running" from day 1?). looking at only working grads who passed pa school and pance and are licensed in theory takes out all those who were not academically fit to practice. I think that study would favor those with experience by a factor of at least 2:1...and this study will never be done because if well supported and published it would make 75% of today's pa grads look unsuitable for entry level employment as their safety in 1st yr of practice #s would not compare to their more experienced "peers". part of my job for the last 15 years has been to orient new grad pa's to the various depts I have worked in. guess which group fits into the practice culture faster, makes fewer errors, has a better safety record, sees more pts and requires less input from me and the other senior providers? ( I am happy to teach anybody anything I know and can do so in person without "attitude" but I am often thinking to myself with some folks "why don't you know this very basic information? how did you pass pa school and the pance without knowing you don't give aspirin/ibuprofen routinely in the er to folks on coumadin for minor musculoskeletal pain, those big st segment elevations on the ekg are not nl, you don't need to call ophtho about every corneal abrasion, etc.) Of course, this study could only reveal information about new grad performance, and new grad performance is a small sliver of the practice of PAs over the length of their career. So this study would be effective if you wanted to judge the performance of a new grad, yes, but it still would have nothing to say about the long term viability of the PA. Whether or not a PA program's admission requirements should be based solely on the success of new grad performance is another issue that can certainly be discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will352ns Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Also, maybe I like online better because I don't have to listen to the "older" students asking 1,000 questions and wasting half of the lecture time! :) I know all the younger peeps out there know what I mean by this statement! I've been reading this tread and that has got to be one of the most ignorant statements I have read. It kind of makes you look like a buffoon. Not an attack on you, it's just how it appears. I will be 41 when I start PA school, I guess I will keep my mouth shut so the "younger" students can carry on. Problem is, I understand many of your points. Personal opinions aside, I agree with some. You might want to refrain from generalizations such as this as it tends to negate what you say. Just some advice from a older guy who isn't a career student with a lot of HCE and didn't ace every science. Not that I didn't do well mind you, my GPA is decent. I'll go take some Geritol now. Back to your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Also, maybe I like online better because I don't have to listen to the "older" students asking 1,000 questions and wasting half of the lecture time! :) I know all the younger peeps out there know what I mean by this statement! You're probably right- the less information, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 It just seems to me in my undergrad./grad. that the "older" group asked more questions about things because they are more seasoned, giving 110% etc. With me, I want to know everything I can that will make me a better PA, but do not want to spend 10 mins here and 5 mins there talking about what I did in the 70's or how these "kids" don't know what it was like or ask 100 times what is going be on the test/or types of questions on the test (when they professor already told everything 10 times he/she gave us a "guide" and follow that guide). These are the types of things that I could care less to hear and want to focus on "today's subject" and not one's life stories. Most people my age (< 30) sit back, relax, listen and take notes then peace out when he/she is doing speaking. That is all my point was about and I have been through it over the past 7 years and can safetly say my statement holds true, even in PA school. It could just be me, my wifes and friends opinion, but it happens in every class and that is why I LOVE online! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 14, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 14, 2012 some would say the same could be said about high hce vs low hce students....do we really have to go over how to read an ekg? doesn't everyone know that before day 1 of pa school..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted July 14, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 14, 2012 Few things are more annoying than people asking questions that can be answered by the reading or, even worse, by just critically thinking. Though I'm sure I've been guilty of a dumb question before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 There is so much to be learned from the back and forth that goes on between an instructor and student One question springboards into another and concepts are developed These are listening skills that are essential as a provider "We don't need to do a full H&P. I read ahead in your chart so I already have an idea of what's going on. Here's a script; if you have any questions, just email me." PAMAC- the classroom setting is not only about your progress, it's about the whole group The pace of a lecture can't/won't be tailored to the needs of individual students, but the whole. Perhaps this is just the way of the word now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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