Killer GPA, Bad HCE

[IloveKoko]

Quite opposite to most people’s predicaments on this forum, I have the dilemma of having a really high GPA (cGPA=3.98, sGPA=4.0) but very low HCE. I have managed to rack up 125 hours from working as a CNA for a semester; however, I hated it and quit my job. Currently, I am a sophomore in college majoring in biology with a microbiology emphasis, and I am beginning to prepare for applying to PA programs next spring. I have just started looking into PA programs, but I am very interested in the University of Wisconsin LaCrosse PA Program, the University of Wisconsin Madison PA Program, and the Rosalind Franklin University PA Program. None of the three schools have set a minimum to the number of direct patient contact hours, but they do stress the importance of HCE. Next fall, I am thinking about applying for some different CNA positions that will hopefully better suit me. I have shadowed one PA already, and plan on doing more this summer, and I have started volunteering at Campus Kitchen. I know the more hours the better, but I need to set some realistic goals for myself.

 

So the question is, thinking realistically, what is the minimum amount of HCE that I should attain to make myself a competitive candidate?

 

I was also wondering how many schools on average does one apply to? How much money does one usually spend on the application process? And if anyone has any helpful advice, I am all ears!

[EMEDPA]

So the question is, thinking realistically, what is the minimum amount of HCE that I should attain to make myself a competitive candidate?

to maximize your chances of obtaining admission to a program 1000 hrs is the min I would shoot for as that encompasses the range of requirements for most programs. some programs say 500 hrs but if you look at matriculants the avg is 1000+. some programs have higher min cutoffs like 2000-4000 but they are looking for a different type of applicant than you.

[crystaltide]

Definitely speak with each of the schools you are thinking of applying to. I've spoke with Rosalind Franklin, and they "strongly prefer" a minimum of 800 hours of care contact. That to me means a person needs at least 800 hours to be competitive. There are quite a few threads on the forum referencing how many schools people apply to and how much it ends up costing. Remember you potetially have to pay CASPA, GRE, and supplemental app fees, plus interview costs.

 

I'm not sure where you live or where your previous CNA experience was, but if you're looking to work at a hospital instead of a long term care facility, start applying now. In fact, you'll probably want to start applying now anyway as jobs are hard to come by and you want as much experience as you can get.

[joanna.nola]

You are competing with people with very high GPAs as well as lots of HCE. For many programs, there are over 1,000 applicants for 50 spots (as the PA profession grows, this competition is increasing). To some programs, that person with a 3.5 with many years of HCE looks WAAAAY better than you. I think 2,000 hours, which is about a year of full time work, is what a lot of programs would like to see. Even if they don't say what their minimum is, there might be the de facto minimum (ie, they really would not consider you). I had a 3.8 GPA, 4.0 sGPA, a high GRE score, and a master's degree but not enough HCE at application time (tons of other work experience, including starting a non-profit organization). I did have close to 2,000 before I matriculated, however. Fortunately, my program put an emphasis on grades over HCE. Another program I was considering encouraged me to work more and apply in a year. The fact that you had a health care job and hated it and then quit will not reflect well on your application. CNA work is hard back-breaking work (in my experience--I worked at a LTC facility). I was eventually able to get a job as a therapy tech. Become an EMT or find a CNA job that you like or consider becoming a therapy tech/aide. Work for a year after you graduate. You will be a MUCH better applicant and a better PA student after you've paid your dues.

[CAAdmission]

Consider looking at some of the 3 year programs. They are often kinder to low experience applicants as they offer more rotation time.

[wisemakl]

I think you still have plenty of opportunity to get into PA school. I would try and get some HCE and continue volunteering. I didn't look into any of those schools, but I had no HCE and a lower GPA and got into 4 programs. Look at some of the other posts in the Pre-pa section with people wondering the same thing. Good luck! :)

[winterallsummer]

I think you should still apply. I think if you can get 300 hours you will be set. I disagree that you need 1000 to get in. Look at schools that don't specifically require a lot of HCE.

[Pedra]

It might be helpful to look for some volunteer opportunities that allow for medical experience as well. I volunteered doing blood lead screenings for kids and pregnant women. I got to do the finger sticks and run the testing machine and use those hours as part of my HCE!

[thegreenmansaidhi]

I think you still have plenty of opportunity to get into PA school. I would try and get some HCE and continue volunteering. I didn't look into any of those schools, but I had no HCE and a lower GPA and got into 4 programs. Look at some of the other posts in the Pre-pa section with people wondering the same thing. Good luck! :)

 

Hi!

 

I was just wondering what the names of these programs are? I'm looking to apply with about 600 hours of HCE, which isn't a ton :/

 

Thanks :)

[patachok]

Rosalind Franklin is very competitive to my knowledge, and they get close to 2000 applications for 66 spots or so. My advice, minimize your shadowing, I see no reason in tens or hundreds of hours of shadowing, and show your dedication by accumulating direct HCE, no matter how much you dislike what you do. After all, it is a small sacrifice for the ultimate prize.

P.S. You can try being a PCT in ambulatory surgery or something similar, where you do not per say have to give baths and do other things that come with your position.

[Febrifuge]

You sound like an MD applicant.

 

That is not necessarily an insult, but neither is it a compliment, my friend.

 

Quitting CNA after just 125 hours is a big red flag, if I'm on the admissions committee (or if I'm the student paired with a faculty member on interview day... as I was, in my 2nd year at Rosalind Franklin).

 

People who don't seem to want to work in a healthcare environment, and yet seem consumed with a burning fire to be a PA... I have to admit, it never made any sense to me. How on earth do you even know that you want to do the work? That you can be effective and happy in a clinical environment?

 

When you have been splashed at least once with every possible human body fluid, and you still want to practice medicine, then you have a strong application. That's a glib and oversimplified way to put it, but there's a kernel of truth to it. I took rectal temps and did chest compressions and debrided maggoty wounds for 3000 hours, and the experience was valuable all through school, and in the 5 years since.

 

Don't be so eager to find a way to avoid what might be the most important and useful part of your training.

[EMEDPA]

Don't be so eager to find a way to avoid what might be the most important and useful part of your training.

this X 1000.

[CAAdmission]

Don't be so eager to find a way to avoid what might be the most important and useful part of your training.

 

If working as a nurses aid/EMT/RT/whatever for a gazillion hours before PA school seems like "the most useful part of your training" I would bail out of your program and try another one.

[rcreek]

If working as a nurses aid/EMT/RT/whatever for a gazillion hours before PA school seems like "the most useful part of your training" I would bail out of your program and try another one.

 

There is a difference between those who see it as "hours" simply to be gained, vs those who see it as an important learning experience. The ease with which you bash this concerns me.

 

Actual hands on experience and the human element of patient care is extremely important. Gaining experience prior to PA school will lend itself to a deeper level of learning throughout the program, and can steer and shape your future career. I can not express how grateful I am for my years as an EMT.

 

Because it is not 4 years of medical school followed by 3 or so years of residency, PA students should have been sufficiently exposed to the real world of healthcare PRIOR to their formal training. In my opinion, the lack of this emphasis in many programs has been a detriment to the profession, and has led to an increased call of "training wages", longer PA programs, and even residencies.

 

When I was in a unique position to observe and work with PA students who did their rotations in our ED, I will tell you firsthand that even I noticed the difference between PA students who had ample prior experience before school and those who did not. Of course, there are some excellent PAs who did not have much prior experience, but it would be wrong to say that it is not helpful and doesn't make a difference.

 

To address the original post in this thread, if necessary there is nothing wrong with delaying your application another year. I wish you the best whatever your decision is. The application process is stressful and expensive. I've been there.

[CAAdmission]

...Because it is not 4 years of medical school followed by 3 or so years of residency...

 

 

So at the conclusion of formal education (med school + residency), physicians have a lot more contact time with patients than PAs do.

 

What percentage of attending physicians have you seen that have REALLY impressed you with their interpersonal skills? Based on your argument, it should be almost all of them due to their greater experience. (Sadly, this has not been my experience.)

[pacman54]

From UW Madison Website- "Applicants should have between 500-1000 hours of patient care to be competitive in the application process."

From the Rosalind Franklin Website-

 "Coming into the program, successful applicants typically have at least 1,200 hours of direct patient contact and PA shadowing experience."

 

There may be no minimum requirement listed, but you should consider those "competitive" numbers as absolute minimums when filling out your application.  

[Febrifuge]

If working as a nurses aid/EMT/RT/whatever for a gazillion hours before PA school seems like "the most useful part of your training" I would bail out of your program and try another one.

 

It's a little late for that, since as I mentioned above, I graduated 5 years ago and have been practicing since.

 

 

So at the conclusion of formal education (med school + residency), physicians have a lot more contact time with patients than PAs do.

 

What percentage of attending physicians have you seen that have REALLY impressed you with their interpersonal skills? Based on your argument, it should be almost all of them due to their greater experience. (Sadly, this has not been my experience.)

 

 

...And that is simply moving the goal posts. Interpersonal skills are definitely a part of it, but what MDs get in their residency years - and what a pre-PA should be working on gaining as they get their application ready - is a strong and individualized sense of how to go about doing the day to day tasks, how to function in the hospital or clinic environment, and how to be an effective clinician. That's what we're talking about.

 

We all learn by example. We have mentors we go to with questions and whose habits we try to emulate; we have people who show us the wrong way to go about things. The point is, it's not all something one can learn from a book. Again, going back to the point of the thread and addressing the original question, having amazing test scores is great, but it doesn't make someone ready to be a PA in any particularly meaningful way.

 

If someone wants to be book-smart and at the same time risk being unprepared for actual work, like I say, they should think about MD school. Residency is designed to cure people of that problem.

[CAAdmission]

We all learn by example. We have mentors we go to with questions and whose habits we try to emulate...

 

So what is magic about the mentorship you would receive in a medical environment (say as a CNA/nurse's aid) that working on the trading floor, managing a fast-food franchise or working in a clothing retailer would not equal? All will test people skills and stress management. 

 

Maybe someone with extensive experience had terrible mentors. Maybe they now have deeply ingrained bad habits. I think being a medic is great experience for PA school, but in my brief experience on this rock I have met about a dozen medics that were so burned out they smelled like a used match tip. Some think they know everything. Some try to document an H&P like an EMS "chart." It seems like the more experience they have in EMS the harder it is to convince them to consider a different way of doing things. 

 

I am certainly not going to argue that experience is bad but I will argue against the blind assumption that it is automatically good and always brings something awesome to the table. 

[True Anomaly]

And around and around we go...

 

To the OP- did you quit your CNA job because of the specific facility you worked at, or was it the job of being a CNA?  One can be understable, while the other is much harder to explain- as Febrifuge pointed out, it may say quite a lot about your true desire to do healthcare.  Bottom line is, according to other people posting the specifics of the programs you seek, you need more HCE to be competitve.

[Febrifuge]

 

I am certainly not going to argue that experience is bad but I will argue against the blind assumption that it is automatically good and always brings something awesome to the table.

 

Cool. As soon as anyone comes along who is trying to argue in favor of that assumption, we can direct them to you.

[CAAdmission]

Cool. As soon as anyone comes along who is trying to argue in favor of that assumption, we can direct them to you.

 

Don't worry - the dozen of them and I have threads like this all the time. It's Chevy vs Ford. But if people keep posting threads asking for opinions, I will keep giving this one.

 

If you want to talk about moving goal posts, talk about the term "experience" itself. How do you convert CNA hours and medic hours into a standard for comparison so that you can compare them? For example, people like CNA hours because it shows you are not afraid to get dirty and work hard. (That's great - I can muck horse stalls and demonstrate the same thing.) People like medic hours because you mange stress and learn some procedures. So do 2500 CNA hours equal 100 medic hours? 

 

The profession is changing. We can either find a way to get in front of it or we can wring our hands and watch the train leave the station. But the fact is this: a smart, inexperienced person can always go find a way to get experience. A dumb, experienced person will probably not find a way to get smart. 

[SocialMedicine]

Some ideas ....

 

a PA school with 2 tracks. those w sub par HCE must start 3-4 months early and do intense shadowing, basic physical exam, ride ambulance, possible EMT course. Hofstra medical school trains all new medical students as EMTs within first month in an accelerated program and gets them on an ambulance first month.

 

What is HCE anyway ? I see so many apps where people list 1000+ hours where they held roles that offer little to nothing for PA level patient care.

 

I wonder if any PA or medical faculty has looked HCE making a difference in health or education outcome?

[Febrifuge]

Sigh. Nobody is wringing their hands about anything. Like you say, people ask for opinions, and we give them.

 

Look: maybe I'm over-simplifying it, and maybe others are over-complicating it. All I know is, when someone says "I have a great GPA but lousy HCE, what should I do to make my app as strong as possible?" I figure the answer is usually going to be, "get more and better HCE." When someone says "I tried being a CMA but I hated direct patient care," I point out that might be a problem in some way.

 

You can prepare as well as possible to get into PA school, and still come out at a disadvantage. Sure, if you're smart, dedicated, and capable, that won't be as big a deal, and you'll get out from under it quickly. But why have to? Why not just take the time to get the HCE? Why not prepare for a future career as a PA, instead of just preparing to get into school?

 

As far as what counts and what doesn't, I go with the basic definitions as laid out by schools: it should be a) paid moreso than volunteer, it should be b) direct patient-care experience (so yes, emptying bedpans perhaps gives a stronger sense of what it's like to care for people medically than lab tech does), and there should be some semi-arbitrary but non-trivial number of hours. 1000 looks like a low end, based on what I'm seeing.

 

Working a trading floor, mucking stables, and doing all the stuff I did before I switched careers is of course great too. It's just not direct health-care experience. It's not Ford vs. Chevy; it's Ford vs. Schwinn.