Incoming Students, Be Advised, Be Aware!

[BethelStudent19]

 

Hey everyone, 

If you are reading this you are likely looking at Bethel University as an option for PA school or have been accepted already. Before you decide to follow through, please make sure that you take all things into account. Many 2nd and 3rd year students have had major issues with clinicals - these are hard to see as a first-year student and you won't likely get this information from 1st year students during your interaction with them at your interviews. This does not reflect the education received during the didactic year, just the following 15 months.

(Please excuse grammar and formatting - this was written quickly, but after much consideration and continued frustrations.)

Here are some of the issues with the school during the clinical phase:

• There are only 2 staff members setting up rotations for both the 2^nd and 3^rd year students (around 100 total). As a result…

• More than half of the students have been setting up (almost) ALL of their own rotations (more than 6 months into rotations at this time for the 2nd year students). This is because Paris, Jackson, and Nashville cannot house 50 (much less 100) students from Bethel.

• You will likely need to set up the majority of your rotations because the school does not have connections outside of that 2-3 hour area (don’t let them fool you!). Several students have had to are relocate STATES with as short as 4 day’s notice.

• They have lied, flat out. They will tell you they have reached out to your contacts when they have not- that your paperwork has been sent when it has not– that you have “nothing to worry about” when you don’t have a rotation set up for next week’s start date – that they are working “as hard as they can”, yet take time off at the drop of a hat while you are freaking out about not having a rotation in place. We have lost affiliations with very important clinical sites because the ball has been dropped and responsibility has not been taken.

• The school cannot admit where and when they are wrong. They have a justification for every issue they have and do not take suggestions on how to resolve those issues. They will feed you what you want to hear to calm your frustration, but they will not fix the underlying issues. 

• We have lost 2 clinical recruiters in the last year. The program director recently resigned this summer. There is little stability in positions that are critical for your success!

I truly hate that this is the case with the school. I wish I could say I graduated from a school that I was proud of, who doesn't?
If this is the only school that accepts you, please take it! The opportunity to become a PA-C is worth it, in my opinion. BUT, if you are accepted into another school, I strongly suggest considering those other options if you do not want to deal with the disorganization and absolute frustration during your clinical years.

 

 

[antsinmypance]

Would I be able to set up my own rotations in my hometown in California?

[BethelStudent19]

12 minutes ago, antsinmypance said:

Would I be able to set up my own rotations in my hometown in California?

Not at this time. They have limited the states for rotations to help mitigate the issue of being stretched too thin, which is a good thing IMO. 

[antsinmypance]

Thanks for the quick response. Is the school safe for minorities? I’ve heard that rural Tennessee can be pretty racist.

[BethelStudent19]

6 minutes ago, antsinmypance said:

Thanks for the quick response. Is the school safe for minorities? I’ve heard that rural Tennessee can be pretty racist.

I don’t believe there have been any issues for minorities. It’s rural, but not malicious. Previous staff have been POC and also didn’t comment about it at all, so it doesn’t appear to be a major issues. Much of the town is retirement community, so a lot of older people who don’t give much trouble.  Hope this helps 

Edited August 22, 2018 by BethelStudent19

[antsinmypance]

I interview on Saturday. Any advice? I’m going to ask them questions regarding issues with clinical placement for current students.

[BethelStudent19]

1 minute ago, antsinmypance said:

I interview on Saturday. Any advice? I’m going to ask them questions regarding issues with clinical placement for current students.

 Best of luck! Practice interviewing as much as you can, even with general interview questions. Get comfortable with hearing yourself talk.

I would definitely not be confrontational about the clinical years,  though you could mention that you’ve heard concerns and want to know about stability. Again, there is little that most people would not go through in order to be excepted into PA school. At the end of the day, it’s about getting through PA school and passing your boards, and only partly about what happens in PA school.

If you get interview opportunities for other schools, take those as well and gauge what others have to say about those schools as well. The didactic year at Bethel is good, but if you can find a school with a good clinical program as well as didactic year, it would only make sense. 

[antsinmypance]

Thank you for your honest critique of the school. It helped me, and I’m sure it’ll help many prospective students make educated decisions about which program to attend.

1 hour ago, BethelStudent19 said:

 Best of luck! Practice interviewing as much as you can, even with general interview questions. Get comfortable with hearing yourself talk.

I would definitely not be confrontational about the clinical years,  though you could mention that you’ve heard concerns and want to know about stability. Again, there is little that most people would not go through in order to be excepted into PA school. At the end of the day, it’s about getting through PA school and passing your boards, and only partly about what happens in PA school.

If you get interview opportunities for other schools, take those as well and gauge what others have to say about those schools as well. The didactic year at Bethel is good, but if you can find a school with a good clinical program as well as didactic year, it would only make sense. 

 

[Travelbug27]

Does this geographic limit include electives too?


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[BethelStudent19]

32 minutes ago, Travelbug27 said:

Does this geographic limit include electives too?


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I don’t believe so. Students already have to set up their own electives, so those should not be limited since the school had mininmal involvement anyways. 

[PA17applicant]

Thank you for the information. This is very helpful. Also, how are the teaching staff?

[BethelStudent19]

1 hour ago, PA17applicant said:

Thank you for the information. This is very helpful. Also, how are the teaching staff?

Teaching staff is mostly great. A bit of turnover here as well, but not sure if more than other places where teachers are also practicing PAs. 

[SouthernBelle1133]

I have been accepted to 3 PA schools, however, Bethel is the only fully accredited institution. Are the clinical problems major enough that I need to look more into the provisional accreditation schools more than Bethel? I was considering Bethel as my top choice until reading these posts. During the interview when we asked the current students about these concerns none specifically admitted anything was wrong and that they had all received their placements. I’m just trying to figure out what I should do.

[BethelStudent19]

22 minutes ago, SouthernBelle1133 said:

I have been accepted to 3 PA schools, however, Bethel is the only fully accredited institution. Are the clinical problems major enough that I need to look more into the provisional accreditation schools more than Bethel? I was considering Bethel as my top choice until reading these posts. During the interview when we asked the current students about these concerns none specifically admitted anything was wrong and that they had all received their placements. I’m just trying to figure out what I should do.

It is not surprising that the first-year students are mostly oblivious to/unaware of the problems. In my first year I also did not realize the extent of the issues. Placement simply means they have a general "hub" for your rotations, but in no way ensures stability (several students have had to get new hubs after being "placed"). 

This is a difficult scenario. If it were me, I would pay the deposit for each and choose as late as possible, once you have as much information as you can in regards to accreditation.

Will those schools possibly have been approved before Bethel's start date?

Are the schools with provisional accreditation new programs or ones that have lapsed in accreditation?
Newer programs may also have issues with clinical rotations, depending on the size of the incoming class and the bandwidth of the staffing. 

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by BethelStudent19
Edited

[PAs12017]

isnt it against PAEA standards to have students set up their own rotations??

[BethelStudent19]

30 minutes ago, PAs12017 said:

isnt it against PAEA standards to have students set up their own rotations??

Great question! If so, I hope that will catch the administration's attention! 

I don't know much about the PAEA standards, but it's doubtful that there is any way to regulate that. 

[SouthernBelle1133]

All new programs. I settled on Bethel and will be starting in January 

[ProSpectre]

On 8/31/2018 at 3:29 PM, BethelStudent19 said:

Great question! If so, I hope that will catch the administration's attention! 

I don't know much about the PAEA standards, but it's doubtful that there is any way to regulate that. 

ARC-PA is the PA accrediting body (not PAEA), and it is indeed against the standards of accreditation to require students to solicit preceptors or set up their own rotations (at least for required rotations). 

Per the most recent Standards of Accreditation from ARC-PA:

"A3.03 Students must not be required to provide or solicit clinical sites or preceptors. The program must coordinate clinical sites and preceptors for program required rotations. 

ANNOTATION: Coordinating clinical practice experiences involves identifying, contacting and evaluating sites and preceptors for suitability as a required or elective rotation experience. Students may make suggestions to principal faculty for sites and preceptors but are not required to do so. Student suggested sites and preceptors are to be reviewed, evaluated and approved for educational suitability by the program." 

- Source: Page 12-13 http://www.arc-pa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Standards-4th-Ed-March-2016.pdf 

 

If the program isn't meeting these standards, then they risk being placed on probation and subsequently having their accreditation pulled if the issues still aren't fixed. If these issues are resulting in students getting poor rotations or having graduation delayed, it may be worth it to bring this to the administrations attention; I can't imagine they are unaware of these standards, which is a huge part of running a program, but it may light a fire under them if they know students are aware and liable to contact ARC-PA, which could result in an audit of the program. 

[pursuitofPA]

Yeah I remember programs saying that’s a red flag for PA programs because it goes against the accreditation standards. This is going to be interesting....


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[PA17applicant]

Does there seem to be any sign of them fixing this? 

[SouthernBelle1133]

I have spoken with several of the 2nd and 3rd year students currently in the program and they have all said that they haven’t had any trouble when in comes to rotations. 

[PA17applicant]

Anyone currently in the program do rotations in Knoxville?

[BethelStudent19]

In a class of 50, there are likely several that have not had any issues at all. Many others, though, have had minor issues and others have had the severe slew of issues previously mentioned.

Is there hope or signs of fixing these issues? I am sure there are, but there needs to be a major overhaul in the clinical coordination department that will not be easy to make. Changes will not be seen for months (which is probably optimistic in terms of a timeline), so it will be difficult to truly assess if any changes are working towards or against a resolution. 

I do wish the school would continue on and produce great PAs (their classroom education is great), BUT, changes are still needed.

 

On 11/22/2018 at 6:31 PM, ProSpectre said:

ARC-PA is the PA accrediting body (not PAEA), and it is indeed against the standards of accreditation to require students to solicit preceptors or set up their own rotations (at least for required rotations). 

Per the most recent Standards of Accreditation from ARC-PA:

"A3.03 Students must not be required to provide or solicit clinical sites or preceptors. The program must coordinate clinical sites and preceptors for program required rotations. 

ANNOTATION: Coordinating clinical practice experiences involves identifying, contacting and evaluating sites and preceptors for suitability as a required or elective rotation experience. Students may make suggestions to principal faculty for sites and preceptors but are not required to do so. Student suggested sites and preceptors are to be reviewed, evaluated and approved for educational suitability by the program." 

- Source: Page 12-13 http://www.arc-pa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Standards-4th-Ed-March-2016.pdf 

 

If the program isn't meeting these standards, then they risk being placed on probation and subsequently having their accreditation pulled if the issues still aren't fixed. If these issues are resulting in students getting poor rotations or having graduation delayed, it may be worth it to bring this to the administrations attention; I can't imagine they are unaware of these standards, which is a huge part of running a program, but it may light a fire under them if they know students are aware and liable to contact ARC-PA, which could result in an audit of the program. 

 

On 11/23/2018 at 11:04 PM, SouthernBelle1133 said:

I have spoken with several of the 2nd and 3rd year students currently in the program and they have all said that they haven’t had any trouble when in comes to rotations. 

 

[pator]

On 12/8/2018 at 12:59 AM, PA17applicant said:

Anyone currently in the program do rotations in Knoxville?

I am a Bethel Student ( graduate May 4) who did rotations in Knoxville. Feel free get up with me. 

[Googlebrain]

Hello. Do you think the clinical issues have been fixed or are there still lots of problems? thanks for your help!