Guest blandda Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I am really struggling with whether or not to stay in my PA program. I have 6 months left of my didactic year, but I am not sure if I want to continue. I am 100% sure that I want to be a PA, but this new program has so many problems with it: shortage of professors, professors that we have are qualified on paper but ineffective, violations of student confidentiality from the faculty, and a bunch of dumb****s as students who have even taken sexually explicit photographs with some of the cadavers. One of the biggest issues is that this school is situated in a small town; many of the underqualified students attended the university for undergrad and were admitted only because they knew the faculty, went to church with them, etc. I am from 6 hours away and am tempted to start going home every weekend just to get away from this disaster. Are most new PA programs like this? And is the profession becoming populated with idiots? Anyone else having this problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebecker Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Sounds pretty rough. Is this an accredited program? If so, how did they get their accreditation? I would have a huge proglem and I would feel as you do - I think you're justified. Looking elsewhere may be an option, but you are almost through the worst of it and it may be worth hanging on til the end. But I would seriously consider letting some folks within the school know what's gooing on. Get a way for a while - this is always good. And no, I don't think this is standard for a new program, but new programs do have to have a lower threshold for admittance because their applicant pool is poor. That said, I don't think it excuses any of what you've seen. Good luck. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted September 22, 2011 Moderator Share Posted September 22, 2011 at this point just finish it out. you know what they say; "when you are going through hell keep going" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blandda Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Thanks for your thoughts! The program is provisionally accredited, and I used to feel confident about them receiving full accreditation, but lately things have just fallen apart. One of the faculty who stayed on top of the paperwork is on maternity leave for the next month, and it has been a complete monkey house since she left; not that she was all that great, she broke the student confidentiality all the time, disclosed to a group of students in front of everyone the name and details of why a staff member was being fired (personality conflict - it makes me feel like I'm living in some twisted little kingdom where she and her buddy who is the other director can throw their weight around and feel important). We have a site visit early next year from the ARC-PA, and the faculty keeps saying they will tell us exactly what we need to say to the committee; I want full accreditation so I can get certified and licensed, but some of the things I have seen are not acceptable for a PA program and I don't know if I can sugarcoat it if I'm asked. I have already spoken with my advisor about some things I have opposed to. I didn't say "favoritism" but some kids - but not all - are allowed to listen to their iPods during exams, or to leave to go to the restroom in the middle of a test and I brought to my advisor's attention that I thought this wasn't acceptable. I was given some dumb excuses about "Well, some people study to music and listening to music helps them do better on the test" and "You can't expect people not to have to use the restroom during a one-hour exam" (funny how these same people can hold their pee for a 3 hour lecture). I wouldn't think it's fair to complain to the ARC-PA or to lodge a complaint with the Middle States Association without giving the school a chance to shape up. Unfortunately, nothing has improved. I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place. I'm open to any advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebecker Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Since you started a program with provisional accreditation, you should be fine to test and get licensed no matter what happens next year. Thus, you should speak your mind during the ARC-PA visit next year. What will likely happen is that the program will only receive a 1 year accreditation with stricter oversight by the ARC and thus will either shape up or ship out, so to speak. I agree - the changes need to be made. But if you don't speak up, there will be no teeth to ensure that the integrity of the PA profession is upheld. Anyone who would recite a "script" to the ARC-PA to ensure that a program gets their accreditation is not someone I want to work elbow-to-elbow with in the trenches of medicine. It'll be difficult, but worth it for you and for the profession if you speak your mind. Good luck, stay in touch. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyBoy Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Agree with Andrew- the ARC-PA is where you should air your grievances; not out in the open. You do not want to jeopardize your standing in the program- Academia is a funny world where "what is right" and common sense do not always hold true. Keep your head down, do what is required and be careful how much you post on here (you never know who's watching). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebecker Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 It's scary but Mike makes a good point - you never know who's watching/reading your posts. Any of us will be glad to provide advice, but perhaps best to keep it to PMs. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Hmm... interesting All new programs have "growing pains" and a uphill battle to get established. Also... since this is supposed to be "ADULT EDUCATION"... I see no problem with ADULTS getting up and going to the restroom to relieve themselves PRN. As a matter of fact... if someone who's salary I was paying, tried to question me about or stop me from going to the restroom, I'd first remind them that we were standing in a university not a grammer school and then basically tell them to "go pound sand." Then I'd remind all of the classmates with the "hall-monitor" mentality that another aspect of ADULT EDUCATION is... we came alone, we leave alone.... and we are responsible for ourselves. Worrying about and telling on others is highschool nonsense. Also... modifying the environment for testing (accomodations) is standard in college if the tester request this and has revealed a learning disorder or simply a different leariing style. Its really no one elses business what accomodations instructors make for individual students, and they really don't need to explain their actions to anyone but admin. Its especially silly when one thinks past the idea that listening to a Ipod while testing is cheating if the same person considers that if the subject was cheating... it will reveal itself on the PANCE. To a few of the other posters... You guys sure did "jump on the bandwagon" and started suggesting that the OP report to ARC-PA and throw the program under the bus... based upon the perspective of a single anonymous poster... who may/may not be a significant part of the dysfunction/problem there... IF it even exists... I've precepted a number of students from MEDEX... I've heard all types of crap about some of the "goings-on" the program and/or he-said-she-did... not once did it occur to me that MEDEX sucks and should lose their acreditation or the encourage the person telling me this to contribute to that occuring. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 all programs have problems. you have reported to admin once; enough. let it go. keep to your own moral standards. don't lose your focus....learn all you can. get through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haeriphos Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 We have a site visit early next year from the ARC-PA, and the faculty keeps saying they will tell us exactly what we need to say to the committee; I want full accreditation so I can get certified and licensed, but some of the things I have seen are not acceptable for a PA program and I don't know if I can sugarcoat it if I'm asked. This should be a huge red flag. My program recently went through our ARC-PA site visit and our director's instructions were to tell the truth. The reason for the ARC-PA visit is to determine a program's deficiencies and allow them to be corrected. They can't do that if you don't speak up! No matter what happens as a result of the visit, you can take the PANCE as long as the program was accredited (even provisionally) when you started your training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delco714 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Contrarian, so you are saying these students can go in the bathroom before the test and put notes in there, then go during the test? Or put an audio file on their ipod which is them spewing off facts on that subject? When a school gives a test they should follow the guidelines of taking the pance. If the student has an officially diagnosed problem, for example crohn's, then it's ok, otherwise it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebecker Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Contrarian - I would like to point out that the major issue is not going potty during a test. It's stuff like ubderqualified instructors and morally questionable behavior on the part of students, as the OP mentioned in the first couple of posts. And I take offense at your "jumping on the bandwagon" comment as it is implying that I have failed to use my brain to evaluate what the OP has said - that I am incompetant and foolish. Poor instruction and questionable student behavior when dealing with human cadavers (and some potentially disengaged faculty) are huge problems. These things have the potential to pave the way for PAs who will compromise our profession. The appropriate authority to prevent this is the ARC-PA. Discussing the failings of a program are in no way "throwing it under the bus" as I already mentioned - the school will merely get accreditation for a shorter amount of time with greater oversight and leadership/guidance from the ARC. Airing dirty laundry is the way that the dirty laundry gets cleaned up, if you air it to the people who can clean it. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Delco714... What I'm saying is this isn't grammer school its supposed to be graduate level education. Treat people like adults... and they usually act like they are. The reality seems to be that if folks are set on being dishonest... there is usually little that can be done to circumvent it. Why do YOU care if they have notes in the bathroom...??? Why do YOU care if they have a audio file "spewing off facts"...??? YOU alone are responsible for YOUR OWN learning and success. None of those folks wrote your personal statement (unless of course you posted it on this forum), None of those folks answered questions at your interview, None of them are paying your tuition. So why are YOU concerned about what they do..??? Seems high-schoolish TO ME... Yes they should follow PANCE guidelines... and since YOU haven't taken it... there is no way YOU would know that the tester CAN go to the rest room during the test. Also... Whether or not "the student has an officially diagnosed problem, for example crohn's" or diarrhea or what ever is NO ONES BUSINESS... including the faculty. Just because you decided to spend thousands on your education at some college/university doesn't mean YOU surrendered your right to medical privacy/confidentiality. Just because you are a student doesn't mean you have to go tell the instructors that you have crohns, a STD, a pacemaker, cellulitis, diarrhea, etc. Its really between you and your provider and NO ONE elses BUSINESS..!!! Whats interesting above is that in the initial post, there is a allegation of staff NOT respecting confidentiality... but then the OP goes on to complain about students leaving the room to go to the restroom. Should the student and/or the instructor have stood in front of the class and announced to everyone... "Vanessa has a UTI, and chalmydia so she will be going to the restroom frequently during this test"... or "John has prostatitis so he will need to go pee a lot"...??? Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Contrarian - I would like to point out that the major issue is not going potty during a test. It's stuff like ubderqualified instructors and morally questionable behavior on the part of students, as the OP mentioned in the first couple of posts. And I take offense at your "jumping on the bandwagon" comment as it is implying that I have failed to use my brain to evaluate what the OP has said - that I am incompetant and foolish. Poor instruction and questionable student behavior when dealing with human cadavers (and some potentially disengaged faculty) are huge problems. These things have the potential to pave the way for PAs who will compromise our profession. The appropriate authority to prevent this is the ARC-PA. Discussing the failings of a program are in no way "throwing it under the bus" as I already mentioned - the school will merely get accreditation for a shorter amount of time with greater oversight and leadership/guidance from the ARC. Airing dirty laundry is the way that the dirty laundry gets cleaned up, if you air it to the people who can clean it. Andrew Andrew... What morally questionable behavior on the part of students..???? Are you referring to the "sexually explicit cadaver photos"...??? Neither you nor I have seen these photos, or even know that they exist. As a matter of fact... lots of folks have VERY different ideas of what is or isn't "sexually explicit." Some prudish folks consider halter tops and skirts above the knees "improper" and sexually explicit. Hell... back in the day, in my class, we had 2 folks who thought the student and instructor smokers in the program were morally bankrupt and actually wrote a letter to administration about how they shouldn't be allowed to become healthcare providers if they smoked. We had another who tried to insist that all classes should submit random drug screens to ensure and secure the integrity of the program and profession. The OP is one person in a program that has between 30-100 students in it. She has but one perspective of what is or isn't happening in that program. As far as we know... the OP could be part of the problem/dysfunction there IF any exists. We don't know. So my point is that without being there in that classroom or seeing those photos... its all simply hear-say... so the wise would reserve judgement. Remember... there is always atleast 8 sides to a box... if you include the inside and outside in the count. The OP's detail of the happenings there is but one side to that box. As far as we know... the other 29-99 students in that program feel exactly opposite as the OP. This reminds me of the un-ethical and sanctionable situation where patients come into the office and relay stories of horrible, untenable, depraved, underwhelming, deficient care from a provider across town... and the provider that hears this makes affirming comments about the other providers care to the patient. Then... wonder why they are either dragged into a suit and summoned to court as a plantiff's witness, or summoned to the state BOM for unprofessional conduct for their statements made to the patient about the other provider. YMMV Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebecker Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I grant you that there are variations between what individuals consider moral or immoral. I also grant that we haven't seen any of the proof. But a student asked for advice and the advice given was still the best possible advice without "jumping on the bandwagon," or, throwing the program "under the bus." I would hope that if you, or anyone, heard of something going on that has the potential to compromise the PA profession, you would advise as to the best way to 1. Investigate it and 2. Make sure that the activity in question ceases. The ARC has the ability to do both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 all programs have problems. you have reported to admin once; enough. let it go. keep to your own moral standards. don't lose your focus....learn all you can. get through it. IMO... The best advice given in this entire thread... But a student asked for advice and the advice given was still the best possible advice without "jumping on the bandwagon," or, throwing the program "under the bus"... Nope... ARC-PA should be last resort to confirmed, founded allegations because they have the ability to tank the entire program. Going to ARC-PA before exhausting other avenues is like bringing a bazooKa to a squirrel hunt... Being so willing to "suspend disbelief" based upon what anonymous people write on the internets... does qualify as "jumping on the bandwagon," or, throwing the program "under the bus"... What if she does report this to ARC-PA during their site visit... it is investigated and unfounded..?? How do you think the rest of her stay at that program will be...?? Suppose a instructor did talk openly about the termination of a co-worker... So WHAT...!!! Talking about the firing of a co-worker isn't HIPPA protected info. SUppose the pictures turned up and were actually in poor taste but not to the point of immorality or sexually explicit... where does that leave the OP. What if the above was founded and the doors closed...??? WHere does that leave the other 29-99 students in that program based upon the actions of 1 instructor and 1-2 students with a cellphone camera. The advice given basically supports the notion that it is kosher for a entire program to be sanctioned because of the alleged actions of 3-4 people... That qualifies as poor advice rendered on the internet. Remember... "You can't UN-ring a bell"...!!!! I used to work at a agency that was so dysfunctional... that instead of talking to each other about percieved problems with patient care and billing... everyone would simply write anonymous letters to the state agencies. I remember at one time there, of the 20 staff members there... 17 of them had recieved letters from and were being investigated by the state about allegations made by their co-workers. It was a really tense and a difficult environment to work in. YMMV Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebecker Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 The OP has already taken it to the staff. What would you have come of the program? You want those potential 3-4 troublemakers to graduate, get jobs, and disgrace the rest of us? It only takes 1 to do irreparable damage. Your attitude toward me (that I'm impulsive and too ready to jump on the bandwagon) is no different than me giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. You're assuming I'm a fool and I'm assuming the OP is not. We're both making an assumption. But here's the crux: if the OP is lying, then it's all on his/her shoulders. If he/she reports it, an investigation ensues, and it comes out that the allegations were false, then the OP is in a world of hurt. In the other hand, if it's all true, the ARC should hear about it. We might disagree on this point (assuming for argument that it is all true) but that's someplace we'll need to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Jeez, I take high BP medicine and have to goto the bathroom all day every day lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterallsummer Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 I agree with others who stay stick it out. At this point you have invested a lot into the program and only have 6 months of didactic schooling left. The clinical portion of the program will hopefully be a lot better. Wherever you go, there are irresponsible people, people with piss poor ethics, unprofessional behavior, and yes, cheaters. However your goal is to learn everything you can and get your degree, not expose the program. My advice is find the people you can tolerate and study with them. The rest of your free time, spend it away from your intolerable peers. Don't take it on yourself to "fix" the program. Your actions may not be consequential anyways, and besides, it's not your responsibility. Sounds like you have already done more than enough. One thing I have found, is that no matter where you go - classy place, crappy place - you will find the same kind of people. Even Yale has obnoxious and immature professors. And I guarentee once you are practicing medicine in a hospital, you will find these same personalities in your coworkers (some places more than others). Just remain on track and do what you came there to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraumawannabPAs Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 There is another thread that is almost exactly the same as this one. Im not sure if you all are from the same new program but maybe you two should chat.. http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/forums/showthread.php/29980-new-program-not-what-I-expected-and-I-want-out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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