Trend: Increasing requirements of PA schools

[suoidix]

I last applied to PA school in 2014, I decided to wait a cycle before applying again building up HCE and adding more medical related courses.

 

Now, that I'm researching programs again for the 2016 application cycle I've noticed a pretty big change in a lot of programs I applied to last cycle. They are now requiring Organic chem 1 & sometimes 2, in addition to biochemistry (and sometimes physics). Luckily for me I took Ochem (without lab) and Biochem w/lab years ago in undergrad.

 

A nice advantage is that PA schools traditionally did not have the same requirements as med school - meaning you could avoid taking courses like ochem & physicis, etc..  If I was a fresh college grad and I had to take these classes now, why on Earth would I bother applying to PA school? I might as well take a few months study for the MCAT and apply to med school. Not only that, you wouldn't  technically have to worry about accruing any HCE going to med school either. If I was younger, given the opportunity cost years down the road of going PA over MD/DO, this wouldn't even be a question.

 

Don't get me wrong I still see a lot of advantages in the PA profession and I'll still pursue it for a number of personal reasons, but this is really blurring the lines even further between pre-PA/Pre-Med requirements. My guess is due to a massive increase in interest in the profession applications are at an all time high. So to weed out applicants, why not throw in ochem/physics/biochem as another barrier of entry. 

 

Honest question to PA graduates and students. How much useful information could you actually apply from ochem/physics to your didactic coursework?

 

One program to the next still have requirements that seem to be all over the place and this trend really ins't helping. There needs to be some sort of standard for pre-requisite courses and prior health care experience in place for PA programs.

[MT2PA]

They know. PAEA is aware and are considering streamlining *some* of the pre-reqs but it's not an easy process (and not likely to happen anytime soon, bigger fish to fry).

 

Also, as a PA school, wouldn't you want med school caliber candidates?  If pre-reqs are the only thing drawing people towards PA apps vs med school apps, that kind of defeats the purpose of having 2 different professions.  PA schools want applicants who WANT to be PAs, not applicants who couldn't meet med school requirements or didn't have the grades or didn't want to go to school for as long.  

 

Matriculating students who have completed higher level courses are more likely to succeed in the fast paced PA curriculum than those who have only completed general bio or chem.  The more knowledge you have going into a program, the better off you'll be.  My school didn't used to require A&P and thankfully they have changed that.  Granted, yes, they teach you and most people have had it due to requirements for other schools, but the few people who didn't had to work much harder during the course than those that had at least taken it once before, even if it had been several years.

[hawkeye88]

I've been really frustrated by this as well. I understand that certain classes need to be prereqs because PA schools don't have time to cover all the material that med school does but I think its getting out of hand. Some schools require sociology, anthropology, history, 9 semester hours of psych, genetics etc. Its just too much. There are only so many hoops I'm willing to jump though. Not to mention that in order to take a lot of the upper level science courses you need to take years of prereq classes like general chemistry and general bio. All of these are very, very expensive and very time consuming. It seems like each PA school wants to show that they emphasize something different, but the reality is that every new PA takes the same test, the PANCE, and it wont matter if you've had 9 semester hours of undergrad psych or not. 

 

 Its already harder to get into PA school than Med school and in my humble opinion someone needs to say enough is enough. I think it would go a long way to standardize admission requirements in order to show a little solidarity amongst PA schools. I just have a really hard time believing that some of these prereq classes actually help your ability to practice as a PA. Clearly I'm frustrated about this....sorry...end rant. 

[surfca40]

I'm still relatively new the admissions process as I haven't applied to any programs yet, but I can already see this trend as well.  There are a number of new PA programs opening in the next year or two in the southwest region of the United States.  One of these new programs has prerequisites very similar to med school, and I can only see other schools following suit.  This school requires english, calculus, anatomy, physiology, microbiology, medical terms, psychology, sociology, statistics, a year of general chemistry, a year of general general biology, ochem 1, the GRE, 1,000 HCE hours, and 100 hours of shadowing.  

[suoidix]

 

Also, as a PA school, wouldn't you want med school caliber candidates?  If pre-reqs are the only thing drawing people towards PA apps vs med school apps, that kind of defeats the purpose of having 2 different professions.  PA schools want applicants who WANT to be PAs, not applicants who couldn't meet med school requirements or didn't have the grades or didn't want to go to school for as long.  

 

 

Oh, I completely agree. However, I believe if you're qualified enough to be successful in PA school, the same type of student would also succeed in med school as well. So saying one would use PA as a backup to med school isn't completely true - statistically it's 'harder' to get into PA school than med school based on numbers alone. 

 

PA education falls under the medical model, so similarities are going to exist. However, we all have different priorities and the PA route has it's definite advantages. I'm probably in the minority for believing this, but not having to worry about of orgo & physics can be part of the deciding factor, along with length of school, avoiding the MCAT, being able to practice sooner, starting w/o a residency and a decent salary, etc...

 

There is a merit in difficult coursework and expected outcomes in PA/MED school, but the coursework should have more relevance. Even AAMC realized this and revised the 2015 MCAT by integrating more relevant areas into the test, reducing organic/physics/gen chem questions and adding PSY/SOC/BIOchem questions to the test. 
 

 

Matriculating students who have completed higher level courses are more likely to succeed in the fast paced PA curriculum than those who have only completed general bio or chem.  The more knowledge you have going into a program, the better off you'll be.  

 

Agreed. Personally, I've taken a lot of upper division courses when going back to school. Advanced A&P, Genetics of cancer, 2 upper division psych classes, immunology, and pathophysiology (we even used Robins as our text book). However, I specifically took these courses because of their relevance to PA school and medicine. As for Orgo/physics aside from being 'difficult weed-out courses' I just don't see the usefulness. Effort would be better spent on classes that would help in PA school.

 

Anyways I'm just ranting about the direction programs are going. If they want a difficult weed-out course skip the orgo/physics and require something like 12 additional credits of any upper division related science coursework. Which could include but not limited to: patho, micro, virology, immunology, histology, etc... 

[Disciple3]

Many programs "recommend" those higher level courses in patho, micro, immuno and such.  It definitely makes you a more attractive applicant even if it isn't required.

[Guest JPG13]

I think it's kind of moot to discuss PA vs. med school admissions. It's like comparing apples and oranges. There are different variables that cannot be directly compared. They are both extremely challenging in their own ways.

 

I don't see anything wrong with requiring things like organic chemistry 1&2. I think it is an extremely valuable course because it requires spatial reasoning/3D visualization, abstract/highly conceptual problem-solving and logical skills, pattern recognition, and knowledge application. Other sciences require these skills, yes, but I believe organic tests these skills more than any other course. Organic chemistry never comes up in med school, either, but med schools require it for this reason. Similar argument for physics... 

 

Pre-reqs are not only to ensure that students have some base knowledge of a subject... it's also to measure a student's ability to slog through a lot of challenging work on a busy schedule. Organic chemistry is a very challenging topic and being able to ace it while taking other hard courses says a lot. 

 

With all that said, I am completely in favor of having a universal list of pre-reqs for PA school. I just don't think including courses like organic chemistry and physics in that list is bad or wrong.

[MT2PA]

 

 

 

Oh, I completely agree. However, I believe if you're qualified enough to be successful in PA school, the same type of student would also succeed in med school as well. So saying one would use PA as a backup to med school isn't completely true - statistically it's 'harder' to get into PA school than med school based on numbers alone. 

 

PA education falls under the medical model, so similarities are going to exist. However, we all have different priorities and the PA route has it's definite advantages. I'm probably in the minority for believing this, but not having to worry about of orgo & physics can be part of the deciding factor, along with length of school, avoiding the MCAT, being able to practice sooner, starting w/o a residency and a decent salary, etc...

 

There is a merit in difficult coursework and expected outcomes in PA/MED school, but the coursework should have more relevance. Even AAMC realized this and revised the 2015 MCAT by integrating more relevant areas into the test, reducing organic/physics/gen chem questions and adding PSY/SOC/BIOchem questions to the test. 

 

 

 

Agreed. Personally, I've taken a lot of upper division courses when going back to school. Advanced A&P, Genetics of cancer, 2 upper division psych classes, immunology, and pathophysiology (we even used Robins as our text book). However, I specifically took these courses because of their relevance to PA school and medicine. As for Orgo/physics aside from being 'difficult weed-out courses' I just don't see the usefulness. Effort would be better spent on classes that would help in PA school.

 

Anyways I'm just ranting about the direction programs are going. If they want a difficult weed-out course skip the orgo/physics and require something like 12 additional credits of any upper division related science coursework. Which could include but not limited to: patho, micro, virology, immunology, histology, etc... 

 

I get what you're saying, I do.  And as PA applicants, WE know that PA school is harder to get into but there is a notion that it is the other way around.  I can't tell you how many people I know who didn't get interviews the first time applying to med school so they decided to try PA school thinking they'd have a better shot.  I literally have heard that come out of the mouths of people.

 

If orgo and physics is relevant for med students, future doctors, isn't there also a case that it's relevant for PA students?  I also think it's a nice example of being well rounded.  There are very few science based majors that don't require classes like orgo/physics/etc so for many applicants it isn't an issue.  For those that aren't in science majors and are seeking pre-reqs only, THAT's who this is frustrating for.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally in support of streamlining and I had to take about 16 credits extra to be able to apply to the schools I wanted, so I get it. But as someone who HATED orgo and physics, I'm still very glad I took them if for no other reason than it made me work and learn to think in new, non biological ways.

[PAGuy55]

Orgo/physics is needed for a lot of professional programs besides medicine. Med/Pharm/Vet/Dent (PT needs Phys).

 

And yeah I know...but honestly I think a lot of med students in this generation know how difficult it is to gain admission to PA school. Moreso than past generations. Inflated tuition costs...

[EMEDPA]

If I had been required to do ocehm for pa school back in the day I would have just applied to med school. that was one of my decision points...

[Guest JPG13]

If I had been required to do ocehm for pa school back in the day I would have just applied to med school. that was one of my decision points...

 

Seriously? 

 

edit: in hindsight I understand this approach... since the PA profession was developed as a way for highly trained medical workers to advance their career. In a way all the increasing pre-reqs is almost a bit discriminatory against older applicants who have years and years of experience but not as much freedom when it comes to taking all the classes they need. (Versus the stereotypical fresh-out-of-college applicant who took care of all the pre-reqs just by majoring in biology.)

 

However I really think PA admissions is starting to become more like med school... with a very heavy emphasis on GPA rather than quality HCE. People with a 3.8+ sGPAs but meager HCE are getting into extremely well-regarded programs. So more programs are adding more pre-reqs and creating more "weed-out" barriers. I assume this is what gets them good PANCE rates, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. I have no dog in the fight, just an observation

 

With all that said I am a bit put off by people who think taking organic and/or physics should be "left to the pre-meds," which gives off the vibe that pre-PA is not "as serious" as premed. PA school is just as or more challenging than med school and they want students who can hack it.

 

Last comment: while I think the schools that require sociology, anthropology, several psych classes, etc. etc. are overkill, they are in the minority. Most programs have a pretty reasonable list of pre-reqs imo.

[NLRP3]

I've been really frustrated by this as well. I understand that certain classes need to be prereqs because PA schools don't have time to cover all the material that med school does but I think its getting out of hand. Some schools require sociology, anthropology, history, 9 semester hours of psych, genetics etc. Its just too much. There are only so many hoops I'm willing to jump though. Not to mention that in order to take a lot of the upper level science courses you need to take years of prereq classes like general chemistry and general bio. All of these are very, very expensive and very time consuming. It seems like each PA school wants to show that they emphasize something different, but the reality is that every new PA takes the same test, the PANCE, and it wont matter if you've had 9 semester hours of undergrad psych or not. 

 

 Its already harder to get into PA school than Med school and in my humble opinion someone needs to say enough is enough. I think it would go a long way to standardize admission requirements in order to show a little solidarity amongst PA schools. I just have a really hard time believing that some of these prereq classes actually help your ability to practice as a PA. Clearly I'm frustrated about this....sorry...end rant. 

 

Unfortunately you are not in a position to bargain. If you are not willing to do the prereqs someone else is. I want to work with colleagues who want to learn this stuff and be the best providers possible. I think that while imperfect, the science based prereqs do a good job cultivating critical thinking skills and a solid foundation for clinical decision making. They are important. We are not people who couldn't hack medical school or those prereqs. Enjoy what you are doing and learning. If you are going to enjoy being a PA and enjoy being in medicine, then doing the prereqs should not be some unbelievable burden.

[sobriquet]

If I had been required to do ocehm for pa school back in the day I would have just applied to med school. that was one of my decision points...

Curiosity is killing the cat over here. You're being sarcastic right? It seems a little off to base your career choice off of not wanting to take a couple of classes.

 

I was completely convinced you were kidding around, but then I saw everyone else's replies assumed you were being serious.

[Disciple3]

At this point with the cost of taking the pre reqs and the overall total cost of many programs the pendulum is probably going to swing back in favor of med school

[suoidix]

At this point with the cost of taking the pre reqs and the overall total cost of many programs the pendulum is probably going to swing back in favor of med school

This is a good point. Considering that A&P I&II are required by nearly all PA schools (as i think it should be) adding yet more classes puts the required prereqs at even more than what's required for med school. This doesn't really affect a typical science major, however, those looking for a second career or moving up from another career in healthcare are at a significant disadvantage.

 

I think 'avoid' was a poor choice in words in my original post. A better phrase would be to subject myself to the "blackhole of time that is organic chem labs." To be fair, I took ochem1 and it was incredibly helpful in understanding biochem. So, are these classes useful? Yes, absolutely. Are they necessary? I would say no.

 

It just boils down to prerequisite bloat and a lack of continuity or standardization of the admissions process.

[MT2PA]

This is a good point. Considering that A&P I&II are required by nearly all PA schools (as i think it should be) adding yet more classes puts the required prereqs at even more than what's required for med school. This doesn't really affect a typical science major, however, those looking for a second career or moving up from another career in healthcare are at a significant disadvantage.

 

 

I think this will actually help the PA profession move back towards what it was: a career for people with previous healthcare experience.  

 

If PA and med school have the same pre-reqs then sure, undergrads may decide to pursue med school - which is what was happening for so many years.  Those of us looking for second careers where our first careers were other healthcare related fields will still have probably had the necessary pre-reqs completed during undergrad but now we have extensive experience in the field with few if any pre-reqs to take to catch up.  The PA profession isn't intended to be a natural second career choice for people who are drastically changing their fields (by all means, please pursue it if it's what you want!) but was meant for people who, through work experience, had hands on patient/medical experience and needed additional formal training to round out their education.  

 

That's not to say that PA applicants wouldn't benefit from a standard set of prereqs across PA programs.  But with so many applicants, they really have no need to pander to what the applicants think are necessary prereqs or not or consider how similar or different they are to med schools.

[paproof]

Is it a bad thing that PA schools are making things more competitive?

[Timon]

Lot's of melodrama in this thread... I was a career changer and went through the same hoops.. Each class I took motivated me to take the next because I enjoyed what I was learning and felt it's relevance to medicine.

 

I always see people complaining about O chem... I found that class to be relevant in my pharm classes...

 

People complain about biochem.. I felt it to be relevant to understanding diseases like PKU...

 

People complain about genetics... It totally helped me when I had my pathophysiology class at my program... And having o chem and biochem under my belt made me understand genetics that much better...

 

Why would you not want to take an immunology course if it's recommended and you need to boost up your GPA or you're between application cycles?

 

PA programs already have more requirements than med school... Anatomy, Spanish (some schools), 2k hours of HCE, shadowing, volunteering / community service, and in some cases being in the military or underserved demographic..

 

I get it.. You don't want to take a bunch of classes.. I think the only thing I've agreed on within this thread is that schools are focusing more on GPAs and not HCE and life experience. I see a huge trend within my program of going from a very diverse class with ages ranging from 23 up to 57 with an avg age of 30 down to te avg age being 24 with everyone having super stellar GPAs and minimal HCE. This is what bothers me.. Not the increase of requirements to get into schools, but the trend towards students that lack maturity, life experience, and emphasis on previous health experience that has been going on...

 

All of this is because schools want their first time PANCE pass rates to be high and attrition rates to be low because they know that these guys can pass tests and study well.. But I don't think anyone is asking what kind of clinicians and community leaders these guys are going to be once they start practicing..

[cg02186]

I'm still relatively new the admissions process as I haven't applied to any programs yet, but I can already see this trend as well.  There are a number of new PA programs opening in the next year or two in the southwest region of the United States.  One of these new programs has prerequisites very similar to med school, and I can only see other schools following suit.  This school requires english, calculus, anatomy, physiology, microbiology, medical terms, psychology, sociology, statistics, a year of general chemistry, a year of general general biology, ochem 1, the GRE, 1,000 HCE hours, and 100 hours of shadowing.  

 

That's really not bad at all.  I feel like most schools have this as pre-reqs.  I also think the pre-reqs should be closer to med school as we are trained in the same model.  The programs I applied to had all of these as well plus biochemistry. 

 

Also, is organic chemistry really that bad to people?  I wasn't even a bio or chemistry major and took Chem 1, 2, Orgo 1, and Biochem and did relatively well in all of them.  I didn't even think Organic was all that bad.  I can't imagine not going to PA school because you want to avoid organic.  Classes in PA school are going to be way harder than Orgo would, trust me. 

[DiggySRNA]

...With all that said I am a bit put off by people who think taking organic and/or physics should be "left to the pre-meds," which gives off the vibe that pre-PA is not "as serious" as premed. PA school is just as or more challenging than med school and they want students who can hack it.

 

lol...that's a broad generalization that premeds are "hard workers and serious"....I for sure was not...my attitude completely changed when I decided to become a PA...it's more about interest and motivation. 

 

Programs that do not require orgo/physics/biochem/calculus still produce >95% (and above the nat'l) PANCE pass rates...that said, I am pretty sure not everyone who passed the PANCE took the above courses in undergrad which means... they can hack it. 

[Guest JPG13]

lol...that's a broad generalization that premeds are "hard workers and serious"....I for sure was not...my attitude completely changed when I decided to become a PA...it's more about interest and motivation. 

 

Programs that do not require orgo/physics/biochem/calculus still produce >95% (and above the nat'l) PANCE pass rates...that said, I am pretty sure not everyone who passed the PANCE took the above courses in undergrad which means... they can hack it. 

 

Where did I say all premeds are "hard workers and serious"...? I was implying that the pre-med application process is very serious and competitive, which is true. It's why most successful pre-meds are hard workers. And people should know that the pre-PA track is also very serious and competitive.

 

And you're right. It is about interest and motivation, because that drives hard work. And if someone is not willing to take organic chemistry to get into a PA program, then they don't have to. They can apply to the MANY other programs that don't require orgo. If someone has their heart set on a particular program that requires organic, they should suck it up and take organic chemistry. 

 

I also never said or implied that PA programs that don't require orgo/physics/etc. produce inferior results. I said PA programs want to make sure their students can hack it. There are multiple ways for a school to determine this. If their chosen method is including certain pre-reqs, good for them. 

[db_pavnp]

It's probably time to stop pretending that schools have inflated their requirements for purposes guaranteeing high first time PANCE rates.  Law of diminishing returns, do you feel me?  Schools do this because humans are really, really interested in stratifying other humans and, realistically, they have no other option when they are literally DROWNING in applicants.  They can't interview everyone.  They can't really even read every personal statement.

 

Call it a positive, call it a negative, but in 10 years you are going to see more programs like the one (I think in Wisconsin) that simply blends the PA students into into their established med school and then maybe gives them a specialized PA Summer and a year of "almost-MD" rotations.  The PA profession is one step away from simply being rolled into 3 year MD programs and you take the PANCE at the end of it instead of Step1, Step2, and match.  The financial motivations for this are significant if they can bypass the need for dedicated PA faculty.

 

In 10 years, make sure you get something added to your license for all that hard work.

[HMtoPA]

At the end of the day, I think it should be easier to get into PA school versus Med school, at least in terms of pre-reqs (PA school may actually be more competitive in terms of applicants per seat, not sure one way or the other).  But the point is, we have less training and less earning power.  Some people don't like to say this, but the fact is we are "Physician Lites" and PA school is "Med School Lite," and IMO admissions requirements should reflect this.

[DiggySRNA]

Where did I say all premeds are "hard workers and serious"...? 

 

Never said you did. I was building on what you were implying in a general sense...not to attack you.

[roger777]

"I can't imagine not going to PA school because you want to avoid organic. Classes in PA school are going to be way harder than Orgo would, trust me."

 

In a different way though. Ive rarely found anything hard to figure out, brain twisters so to speak although it does happen--its almost always just trying to remember some damn thing you know you knew. There's not a ton of abstract thinking in PA nor difficult finite problems like a synthesis or calc. a sedimentation temp. Most of the difficulty stems from volume of workload. It's more like having to do 500 algebra problems than it is like physics or calc imo. Academically, this has been the main disappointments for me in that I miss some of the cool conceptual stuff from undergrad i.e. studying brain plasticity and learning the mechanism of rewiring via chemotaxis, synapse pruning etc. Here we would be more likely to learn the parts of the mid brain and what a certain pin is stuck in and be reminded that GABA is inhibitory. I exaggerate for contrast but has anyone else felt this way sometimes? More focus on clinical relevance somewhat offsets this.

 

Also, as a side note, I never put much stock in the arguments about orgo testing for more general aptitudes like spatial reasoning, organizing systems etc. And other mad skillz that make people good doctors. It seems too neat and I always saw a bit of "history is written by the victors" in this. Also bc. These skills might actually be more useful for orgo than they are for a lot of medicine:) The one about it testing the ability to study and grind out work diligently and maintain focus for as long as an orgo final takes I think is closest to the truth. I too found it more useful for pharm but mainly just for knowing wordroots, what enantiomers were etc. The stuff like synthesis not as much; once again nothing "deep" like that crops up much in PA school. The fluid stuff from physics is useful. Probably most useful class for PA has been gen chem 2, along with advanced physiology.