Do you REALLY want to be a PA?

[acozadd]

The tiered system just isn't logical. Say that younger person with less than 5-10 years of experience cruises through PA school with all As and does well in their clinical year while the inidividual with the 10 years of experience is a B student who struggles in many courses and performs equally as well in their clinical year... When they both come out, the distinction is going to be the experience they had BEFORE PA school, not how they performed during PA school and in the role of a PA?

 

Now say the person with 5-10 years of experience was a paramedic, what if both of these people enter gyn, CT surgery, general surgery, ortho, (any surgery for that matter), derm, IR, etc. etc. Do those years of experience place that person at a greater advantage to fill these roles than the person without that experience? Not "5 years worth to make up the difference" like you imply. The paramedic could probably have an advantage in the ER and some IM fields... but stabilizing someone in cardiac arrest wont help you know how to treat billy's UTI, how to do a proper bimanual exam, how to do a venous harvest, how to place a picc line under fluoro, how to do a joint aspiration or injection, etc.

 

How about a nurse that worked 10 years in labor and delivery now wanting to be a PA in the ER... does their previous experience delivering babies translate into a better ER PA than someone without as much experience in a lesser position? How about someone with a few years experience as an athletic trainer going into ortho along with this same nurse... does the athletic trainers completely relevent experience put them in the lower tier while the completely irrelevent experience of the nurse put them in the higher tier?

 

I can answer that for you if you wish. no

Edited May 22, 2011 by acozadd

[andersenpa]

maybe this is why fewer pa's are going into practices that they were intended to gravitate to originally; primary care, underserved, etc where the pa grad needs to be fairly functional from day 1 with some oversight but not presenting every case. practices like those caldje, the cableguy, and kargiver went to as new grads(rural fp and rural er).

 

I figured the reason for the trend towards specialization was salary.

[EMSArtist]

The original post by Rev pretty much stated that nobody under 25 should be allowed to be in PA school... that PA school was to be reserved for those who had made mistakes early in life and are now ready to make the leap in to medicine (as if everyone needs to go through the mistake making process...). Im all for living life, but the nature of the beast in applying to PA school is that there can be over 1000 applicants for 50ish spots. In that group, you can find more than enough perfectly qualified individuals that HAVEN'T had the mistake, so why should the individual that did make these be selected above them? If these schools are comparing candidates that are squeaky clean versus those that have some blemishes on their application, I don't see where many admission boards would choose those with the blemishes in many professional programs.

 

Im all for second chances, but if you have just as many equally qualified, or more qualified individuals without the mistakes, you shouldn't jump to the top of the pile.

 

 

I'm pretty sure I've read almost this same post on SDN disparaging people hoping for medical school despite mistakes and a couple of bad semesters/learning experiences. Of course they were a bit more catty about it, but the premise was the same.

 

While it looks like PA schools are trending towards the 20 something with perfect grades and minimal experience, it looks like medical schools are starting to look past the perfect scores for the wisdom a person may have gained in their lives, and that Med school adcoms have realized that often the best candidates have failed a couple of times and come back better.

[acozadd]

I figured the reason for the trend towards specialization was salary.

 

Ridiculous debt= need to pay it off somehow...

[Firemedic13]

Im all for living life, but the nature of the beast in applying to PA school is that there can be over 1000 applicants for 50ish spots. In that group, you can find more than enough perfectly qualified individuals that HAVEN'T had the mistake, so why should the individual that did make these be selected above them? If these schools are comparing candidates that are squeaky clean versus those that have some blemishes on their application, I don't see where many admission boards would choose those with the blemishes in many professional programs.

 

Im all for second chances, but if you have just as many equally qualified, or more qualified individuals without the mistakes, you shouldn't jump to the top of the pile.

 

For the bolded, I sometimes wonder if that is true with you. Your posts indicate that you look down on people with mistakes in their past... as though somehow you are better for not having made a mistake YET.

 

For the rest, regarding people with mistakes getting an advantage in admissions, I quote Mr. Cohen unto you: "Put away your perfect offering. There is a crack, there is a crack, there is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in, that's how the light gets in."

 

 

@Lewitt: Well said. Part of the reason I am going to law school instead of PA school is the fact that I didn't feel like I could compete with the 23 year olds applying to PA school despite my years in EMS, and years as a medic. Unlike law schools where I could get a high LSAT to prove my worth, and write a good essay about being a firefighter/EMT for scholarship money... well I felt that my experience wouldn't outweigh my GPA for PA schools.

 

Oh, and this way I don't have to touch a patient again, so maybe I am OK with this. People coming into law offices usually smell better.

[acozadd]

I'm pretty sure I've read almost this same post on SDN disparaging people hoping for medical school despite mistakes and a couple of bad semesters/learning experiences. Of course they were a bit more catty about it, but the premise was the same.

 

While it looks like PA schools are trending towards the 20 something with perfect grades and minimal experience, it looks like medical schools are starting to look past the perfect scores for the wisdom a person may have gained in their lives, and that Med school adcoms have realized that often the best candidates have failed a couple of times and come back better.

 

Im all for looking past a few blemishes, but to imply that everyone NEEDS to make mistakes and that the field shouldn't even be available to a younger applicant? Doesn't make sense to me. Most schools have been around long enough to know what students succeed and which do not.

[hankea4]

Lots of valid and interesting arguments to be made here. I am afraid, though, that some of you are missing the point. If you step back for a minute, just about every industry (business, law, education, etc.) places a premium on experience when evaluating potential candidates for a job. e.g., 2 candidates: one with 5 years of experience and one with <1 year - the nod will almost always go to the former candidate. There are many reasons for this, which have already been elaborated upon. So why should medicine/health care be any different?

Speaking from personal experience - I am a 25 y.o. who has been working for 3 years (2 in med business, and 1 in a clinical research setting). I plan to work for an additional 2 years at least before (hopefully) matriculating into a PA program. I sympathize with the younger crowd who finds it immensely frustrating trying to get your career started when you lack experience. However, I can honestly say there is an invaluable skill set that can be attained only "on the job," which you will not learn/practice in an academic environment: professionalism, navigating institutional politics, maturity, working in a matrixed environment, the list goes on. Most (but not all) new college grads lack – or could sharpen – these qualities. As others have said, if you embrace HCE as an integral part of your professional development – and not just another proverbial hurdle that must be crossed – you will be a better clinician in the long run.

[acozadd]

For the bolded, I sometimes wonder if that is true with you. Your posts indicate that you look down on people with mistakes in their past... as though somehow you are better for not having made a mistake YET.

 

This isn't true, it just so happens that the argument is that everyone should make mistakes and that nobody can be qualified to be a PA unless they are a certain age, have a mortgage, children, and a spouse. Since I do not fit into this category but I have done just fine, what is my counter supposed to be?

 

As I mentioned, with so many qualified individuals competing for a few spots at PA school, blemishes could be the deciding factor. Looking negatively at someone who does not have a blemish doesn't make sense to me, hence my counterargument.

[Firemedic13]

Im all for looking past a few blemishes, but to imply that everyone NEEDS to make mistakes and that the field shouldn't even be available to a younger applicant? Doesn't make sense to me. Most schools have been around long enough to know what students succeed and which do not.

 

Um.... Aren't the majority of the programs less than 10 years old, and aren't those the most likely not to require large amounts of HCE? I mean, the programs that have been around the longest seem to want the most HCE (Duke, MEDEX, U of C, etc).

 

 

ETA: I don't think Rev ever said that being young should be a disqualifier... just that young correlated with low HCE, which was something Rev is against.

[acozadd]

Lots of valid and interesting arguments to be made here. I am afraid, though, that some of you are missing the point. If you step back for a minute, just about every industry (business, law, education, etc.) places a premium on experience when evaluating potential candidates for a job. e.g., 2 candidates: one with 5 years of experience and one with <1 year - the nod will almost always go to the former candidate. There are many reasons for this, which have already been elaborated upon. So why should medicine/health care be any different?

Speaking from personal experience - I am a 25 y.o. who has been working for 3 years (2 in med business, and 1 in a clinical research setting). I plan to work for an additional 2 years at least before (hopefully) matriculating into a PA program. I sympathize with the younger crowd who finds it immensely frustrating trying to get your career started when you lack experience. However, I can honestly say there is an invaluable skill set that can be attained only "on the job," which you will not learn/practice in an academic environment: professionalism, navigating institutional politics, maturity, working in a matrixed environment, the list goes on. Most (but not all) new college grads lack – or could sharpen – these qualities. As others have said, if you embrace HCE as an integral part of your professional development – and not just another proverbial hurdle that must be crossed – you will be a better clinician in the long run.

 

Your point applies to finding a job after we are all PAs, but doesnt really correlate to simply applying to PA school. A PA with 10 years experience as a CT surgery PA will get the job and be looked upon more favorably than a new grad PA, just as someone in business that has 10 years experience will get the edge over someone fresh out of school.

 

Do business schools select students based on their experience? Im sure it's factored in, just like it is for PA school, but it certainly isn't the be all end all.

[acozadd]

Um.... Aren't the majority of the programs less than 10 years old, and aren't those the most likely not to require large amounts of HCE? I mean, the programs that have been around the longest seem to want the most HCE (Duke, MEDEX, U of C, etc).

 

 

ETA: I don't think Rev ever said that being young should be a disqualifier... just that young correlated with low HCE, which was something Rev is against.

 

Revs first post said nobody under 25 should be allowed in PA school, they should go to med school. Mentioned nothing of experience, simply age. Ill refer you to the OP.

[Firemedic13]

This isn't true, it just so happens that the argument is that everyone should make mistakes and that nobody can be qualified to be a PA unless they are a certain age, have a mortgage, children, and a spouse. Since I do not fit into this category but I have done just fine, what is my counter supposed to be?

 

As I mentioned, with so many qualified individuals competing for a few spots at PA school, blemishes could be the deciding factor. Looking negatively at someone who does not have a blemish doesn't make sense to me, hence my counterargument.

 

 

Okay, I re-read the OP... and let me say this, and then I am done: The bolded was NEVER Rev's argument. You are extrapolating to put it on your own situation... possibly because you feel attacked. Well, you didn't have to feel attacked, IMO.

[Firemedic13]

Revs first post said nobody under 25 should be allowed in PA school, they should go to med school. Mentioned nothing of experience, simply age. Ill refer you to the OP.

 

He said they should go to medical school instead, yes. I happen to agree with him on this one. But he didn't say you couldn't be a perfectly good PA... only that you should've gone to medical school instead. Whatever, it's his opinion, and you know what they say about those.

[acozadd]

Okay, I re-read the OP... and let me say this, and then I am done: The bolded was NEVER Rev's argument. You are extrapolating to put it on your own situation... possibly because you feel attacked. Well, you didn't have to feel attacked, IMO.

 

That point referred not to the OP, but the subsequent posts in the thread FWIW

[hankea4]

Do business schools select students based on their experience? Im sure it's factored in, just like it is for PA school, but it certainly isn't the be all end all.

 

If you want to go to a top-tier business school, then YES you need ~3-5 years of work experience. If you're willing to go to a mediocre/lower tired MBA program, then you can pretty much go straight out of undergrad or w/ very little experience. I am told that the rationale behind this requirement is that students w/out prior business experience will gain far less and will (on average) contribute less to the program than someone who has been a manager or been managed themselves.

[acozadd]

If you want to go to a top-tier business school, then YES you need ~3-5 years of work experience. If you're willing to go to a mediocre/lower tired MBA program, then you can pretty much go straight out of undergrad or w/ very little experience. I am told that the rationale behind this requirement is that students w/out prior business experience will gain far less and will (on average) contribute less to the program than someone who has been a manager or been managed themselves.

 

The thing that is unique about medicine is that we have a clinical component built in to the program so that you gain experience, IN THE ROLE OF A PA, prior to ever becoming a PA yourself. Another unique aspect of medicine is that the roles of a provider vary tremendously from 1 field to the next, to the extent that some you will benefit greatly from previous experience, and others not so much.

[Firemedic13]

I said I was done, but I thought of something I wanted to say:

 

If PA schools aren't for people with prior HCE who want to move up... what will be available for them? Nurses, Medics, RTs, etc who are smart, wise, compassionate, and skilled will simply remain in their current jobs, underutilized. They could be so much more as a PA... but instead they will spend their years doing what they are already doing as young men and women straight out of college fill up the PA schools when they could be filling up MD/DO schools instead.

 

What a waste of talent that is for our health care system, IMO.

[acozadd]

I said I was done, but I thought of something I wanted to say:

 

If PA schools aren't for people with prior HCE who want to move up... what will be available for them? Nurses, Medics, RTs, etc who are smart, wise, compassionate, and skilled will simply remain in their current jobs, underutilized. They could be so much more as a PA... but instead they will spend their years doing what they are already doing as young men and women straight out of college fill up the PA schools when they could be filling up MD/DO schools instead.

 

What a waste of talent that is for our health care system, IMO.

 

If they are all the things that you mentioned, they will have a combo of great HCE, grades, life experience, etc. and will get into a program easily.

[Firemedic13]

If they are all the things that you mentioned, they will have a combo of great HCE, grades, life experience, etc. and will get into a program easily.

 

Not if they are like me and several medics I know: people who screwed up in college years ago, got bad grades, became a medic and then got good grades once they realized how serious these things turn out to be. Some of them are amazing, but are never going to PA school because they didn't take college seriously a decade ago.

[acozadd]

Not if they are like me and several medics I know: people who screwed up in college years ago, got bad grades, became a medic and then got good grades once they realized how serious these things turn out to be. Some of them are amazing, but are never going to PA school because they didn't take college seriously a decade ago.

 

Really don't know until you try/apply.

[Firemedic13]

Really don't know until you try/apply.

 

Yes, because the statistics (1000 applicants for 40 spots) are so encouraging. Especially when you look at the numbers of the entering classes (3.6 or better).

 

Whatever... I am going to law school, so it really doesn't matter to me. I just think it's a shame is all.

[happiness]

Not if they are like me and several medics I know: people who screwed up in college years ago, got bad grades, became a medic and then got good grades once they realized how serious these things turn out to be. Some of them are amazing, but are never going to PA school because they didn't take college seriously a decade ago.

 

That's not something that is unique to PA school, although I will note that I have witnessed plenty of people here rush to mention (approvingly) the high GPA requirement as long as the discussion is about PA school admissions being compared to med school admissions (i.e. "no, PA school isn't easier to get into, our GPA requirement is basically the same...but gosh, I'm sick of these young folks getting in with their high GPAs...") which is yet another example of the rampant contradictions of the pre-PA forum.

 

FWIW medical schools look favorably upon non-trads, and I'm sure PA schools do too...but if the average GPA for admission to PA school actually lowered, there are some people who would be quite unhappy that they'd no longer have that stat to mention.

[rev ronin]

FWIW medical schools look favorably upon non-trads, and I'm sure PA schools do too...

Really? Which ones? From what I've heard anecdotally, the University of Washington SOM is not particularly nontrad-friendly.

[EMEDPA]

DO schools look favorably at non-trads...md, not so much....

[gidget144]

So...what if I'm twenty and I don't want to be a Doctor?