Lecom APAP

[zoopeda]

I don't understand the draw.  LECOM already offers a 3 year DO for anyone who pledges to go into primary care.  (And actually, you can still deviate from that path, as long as you're willing to pay back that 4th year of tuition.)  Quite a few MD schools are in the process of revising their programs to a 3-year curriculum--some for primary care pledges, others for all grads.  If the APAP were 2 years, it would make more sense--especially since average practicing PAs are quite a bit older than average med school applicants. Three years--especially with no summers--strikes me as kind of a marketing gimmick by LECOM as much as anything.  

[EMEDPA]

I don't understand the draw.  LECOM already offers a 3 year DO for anyone who pledges to go into primary care.  (And actually, you can still deviate from that path, as long as you're willing to pay back that 4th year of tuition.)  Quite a few MD schools are in the process of revising their programs to a 3-year curriculum--some for primary care pledges, others for all grads.  If the APAP were 2 years, it would make more sense--especially since average practicing PAs are quite a bit older than average med school applicants. Three years--especially with no summers--strikes me as kind of a marketing gimmick by LECOM as much as anything.  

no mcat and flexible prereqs make it much easier for a pa to attend.

[medguy]

No one has commented about the level of of competitiveness for getting admission to this program, or what would make a PA applicant to APAP attractive to this admissions committee!

 

Former/current students, current applicants, ANYONE please comment on this topic. I know prima is the most knowledgeable on this topic, but her mailbox is usually full.

[EMEDPA]

good pance/panre scores help as do good grades in pa school. I have spoken to the director. If you did well in pa school and on pance/panre you will at least get an interview. I still wish I could do this....

[PACDO]

I start in 1 week.  Feel free to send me a message and I will try to help out

[EMEDPA]

I start in 1 week.  Feel free to send me a message and I will try to help out

congrats, very jealous!

[medguy]

good pance/panre scores help as do good grades in pa school. I have spoken to the director. If you did well in pa school and on pance/panre you will at least get an interview. I still wish I could do this....

It's probably not too late. If you save enough to cover your cost of living during the program you'll have roughly 180K to pay back, and if you go into something like Internal Med you're looking at only 6 yrs total, 3 of which you get paid ~50k with benefits. You can work as a hospitalist starting around 200K. Of course it depends on how many years of practice you have left when you finish. But if it's around 20 years, then APAP would be a very worth while effort giving you higher pay, 100% scope, and autonomy! 

[EMEDPA]

It's probably not too late. If you save enough to cover your cost of living during the program you'll have roughly 180K to pay back, and if you go into something like Internal Med you're looking at only 6 yrs total, 3 of which you get paid ~50k with benefits. You can work as a hospitalist starting around 200K. Of course it depends on how many years of practice you have left when you finish. But if it's around 20 years, then APAP would be a very worth while effort giving you higher pay, 100% scope, and autonomy! 

it's not about the money, it's about moving to erie, pa for 3 years. can't swing it with current family situation(solo breadwinner for family, kids in school locally,mortgage, 2 car loans, college for kids,l etc etc). opportunity cost is over 1 million dollars (lost income + price of school).

also, I would likely do full scope FP and do clinic/er/high risk ob with sections/hospitalist work in a rural town.

[RURALMED]

congrats, very jealous!

It's never too late! I would argue that you and primadonna would help advance the PA profession as a PA/DO. 

[EMEDPA]

It's never too late! I would argue that you and primadonna would help advance the PA profession as a PA/DO. 

prima will have to carry that one.

I will do my part as a doctorally trained PA working in global and disaster medicine.

[medguy]

it's not about the money, it's about moving to erie, pa for 3 years. can't swing it with current family situation(solo breadwinner for family, kids in school locally,mortgage, 2 car loans, college for kids,l etc etc). opportunity cost is over 1 million dollars (lost income + price of school).

also, I would likely do full scope FP and do clinic/er/high risk ob with sections/hospitalist work in a rural town.

Yeah, you definitely have allot of obligations, its understandable. Its not easy to just pick up and go back to school for several years. 

[zoopeda]

Maybe more of these bridge programs will pop up in your area over the next few years!  I have a family member who just relinquished his role supervising LECOM 4th year DO students because he felt the institution was more interested in churning out numbers rather than ensure proper and comprehensive clinical training.  (An MD, he no longer felt comfortable with LECOM graduates putting his name on a resume or as a reference.)  Maybe a blessing for you that you're able to work in disaster relief with your current degree! 

[medguy]

New pop-up programs are something that I would hope for too, because it increases your chances, but APAP is going onto it's 5th year now and there is absolutely no noise about anything like this opening anywhere else!

 

I wonder if it's because other schools are still skeptical, or if they think there won't be enough demand?! 

[SocialMedicine]

disagree. I do not think PA/DO will benefit the profession. Advance PA's and cost effective care. This DO program does nothing in the long run to improve health outcomes or cost in the country. it is for the individual who wants to advance basic science knowledge and get some additonal clinical training with the license of an MD/DO at the end. It is not the answer to any health care or PA professional concerns. I do not want to see expansion of these programs. Rather improve NP and PA scope of practice,.

 

 

It's never too late! I would argue that you and primadonna would help advance the PA profession as a PA/DO. 

[Michaelcohn]

Hi @primadonna

Im still a student, w/ no PA experience yet. I know APAP is more for experienced PAs, but can I still send you some questions? Thanks

[primadonna22274]

Sure. I will take my time answering them as I'm an overemployed resident though :)

 

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[Michaelcohn]

Sure. I will take my time answering them as I'm an overemployed resident though :)

 

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Thanks for taking the time.

 

So two question: 1) Am I competitive? 2) How is med school?

 

1) So if I graduate from PA school and work for like 1-2 years would I be a competitive applicant? My undergrad grades are good (3.6+GPA) and I have good ECs w/ a lot of volunteering (well over 500 hours), tutoring, undergrad job, and shadowing. Would the lack of experience as a working PA hurt me?

 

2) How does med school compare to PA school? I think PA school is very difficult and a typical (pre-clinical) schedule could look like: Study (6AM-8AM), lecture (9AM-5PM), eat till 6pm and then study from 6PM-10PM and weekends might involve 6-12 hours of studying a day.

 

Is med school just like the PA pre-clinical years except there are two years? For example, if I have to memorize 250 ppt slides a day (arbitrary #) in PA school for 1st year, is med school like memorizing 250 ppt slides a day except you do it for 2 years (so same pace but longer)? Or is med school year 1 even harder than PA year 1 (i.e ~350 slides in MS1) and MS2 even harder than that (~450 slides)?

 

Thank you!

[Maverick87]

Thanks for taking the time.

 

So two question: 1) Am I competitive? 2) How is med school?

 

1) So if I graduate from PA school and work for like 1-2 years would I be a competitive applicant? My undergrad grades are good (3.6+GPA) and I have good ECs w/ a lot of volunteering (well over 500 hours), tutoring, undergrad job, and shadowing. Would the lack of experience as a working PA hurt me?

 

2) How does med school compare to PA school? I think PA school is very difficult and a typical (pre-clinical) schedule could look like: Study (6AM-8AM), lecture (9AM-5PM), eat till 6pm and then study from 6PM-10PM and weekends might involve 6-12 hours of studying a day.

 

Is med school just like the PA pre-clinical years except there are two years? For example, if I have to memorize 250 ppt slides a day (arbitrary #) in PA school for 1st year, is med school like memorizing 250 ppt slides a day except you do it for 2 years (so same pace but longer)? Or is med school year 1 even harder than PA year 1 (i.e ~350 slides in MS1) and MS2 even harder than that (~450 slides)?

 

Thank you!

 

Why would you want to go to med school without even practicing as a PA?

 

As a practicing PA, I can tell you that being a doctor is not all unicorns and rainbows. I've encountered far more miserable physicians than PAs.

[Michaelcohn]

Why would you want to go to med school without even practicing as a PA?

 

As a practicing PA, I can tell you that being a doctor is not all unicorns and rainbows. I've encountered far more miserable physicians than PAs.

 

Tbh I am not 100% sure yet. Sometimes I just feel like I'd like to learn more about medicine. Also Im interested in pysch and it seems like MD/DO psychiatrists have it better than PAs in psych.

 

Edit: Also can you elaborate on why you've encountered more miserable docs? Seems to me like they have greater autonomy, respect, etc. which should lead to greater satisfaction, no?

[Maverick87]

Tbh I am not 100% sure yet. Sometimes I just feel like I'd like to learn more about medicine. Also Im interested in pysch and it seems like MD/DO psychiatrists have it better than PAs in psych.

 

Edit: Also can you elaborate on why you've encountered more miserable docs? Seems to me like they have greater autonomy, respect, etc. which should lead to greater satisfaction, no?

 

Depends on the specialty. Primary care and ER docs, at least the ones that I've met and interacted with, seem to be pretty miserable. I haven't met many psych docs.

[primadonna22274]

You are moderately competitive for med school now, but you need an MCAT score. Since they've changed the 2015 MCAT format I don't really know what constitutes a competitive score.

You are not that competitive for PA school now. You need real HCE (min 1000 hr direct patient care and I prefer to see min 2000).

Working as a PA may be a boon to some medical schools but not as much as you think. I had 11 years experience when I started med school. That worked in my favor (frankly most attendings were amazed that I was willing to do it after more than a decade working and making a nice living ). At just a year or two, most will question your commitment to either path.

Med school and PA school are pretty different in terms of pace and depth of material covered. I can't say how many hours it takes. I was a quick study and really kind of lazy (I only learned HOW to study in PA school and then I had to learn again in med school--still, I was blessed with a good global memory and a very good intuition which translates into great test-taking skills). I didn't work that hard in PA school, probably half as hard as some of my colleagues, and certainly less than half as hard as my med school cohorts. I could have gotten straight As if I wanted to work that hard but that wasn't as important to me as paying my bills and affording some of the finer things I'd become accustomed to lol.

I am not a memorizer. I'm a conceptual learner who puts together the big picture then fills in the details. Your mileage may vary.

Quite frankly if you want to be a psychiatrist I think you should go straight to med school. The role of PAs in psych is abysmally small, sadly. I've worked with one just in the past couple weeks who is bright and doing well in inpatient psych but I'll tell you, in 17 years I have met a grand total of 3 psychiatry PAs and many more PMHNPs. Psych is a long 4-year residency everywhere and it won't be much advantage to you to have more pre-physician experience.

Finally, I generally do not encourage people to become PAs as a stepping stone to MD/DO. It's an inefficient use of health care training resources and expensive in terms of your own life's opportunity costs. Yes, I did it, but my path was sort of an evolution over many years. I had to reach a point where my discomfort in being limited as a PA was greater than my discomfort with the debt and sacrifice of going back to school at 37. I'm happy with my choice but don't advise my path to most. In all, I think you will be happier and more fulfilled if you spend time to figure out which one you are (physician or PA) and be that.

P.s. I've known an awful lot of happy docs and relatively more dissatisfied PAs and NPs. FWIW.

Signed,

A happy doc

 

 

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[Michaelcohn]

I am not a memorizer. I'm a conceptual learner who puts together the big picture then fills in the details. Your mileage may vary.

Quite frankly if you want to be a psychiatrist I think you should go straight to med school. The role of PAs in psych is abysmally small, sadly. I've worked with one just in the past couple weeks who is bright and doing well in inpatient psych but I'll tell you, in 17 years I have met a grand total of 3 psychiatry PAs and many more PMHNPs. Psych is a long 4-year residency everywhere and it won't be much advantage to you to have more pre-physician experience.

 

 

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So you can't really comment on the difficulty difference between med school vs PA school?

[primadonna22274]

The thing is, being a PA for so long was a huge leg up for me in med school. It helped tremendously. I will say first year M1 material was rough but might not have been so rough for a memorizer. TBH M1 is hard on everybody. The difference was my med school colleagues found M2-4 much harder than the PAs who had all learned and practiced medicine for at least a couple years (our class average was 6).

 

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[adru373]

If you really want to be a doctor than it's a good way to speed up the process. Obviously PA school focuses more on clinical knowledge and med school focuses more on basic sciences so the didactic years will be different and the may or may not be challenging depending on your comfort with those subjects. The clinical year is much like your PA rotation year. You'll be basically working full time.

[dholmb]

There are quite a few PAs on this forum that advocate a shorter PA to MD/DO bridge. I'm assuming part of this is from while working side by side with physicians it can seem like PAs are working just as hard, doing almost the same thing, but not getting the respect or pay.

 

Based on comments, it seems like medical school is tough even for experienced PAs. There is still a lot to learn even after working as a PA for 5, 10, or 15 years.

 

Here's a question: how much of what is learned in medical school is important and/or actually going to be remembered for clinical practice? Is medical school just about getting through the program so that you can get the initials behind your name? Or is is there a lot to learn that is useful and retainable for your average PA or MD?