How do you feel about PA's and NP's being taught in the same class?

[Coast2CoastPAC]

I'm a student in a program that teaches both NP's and PA's together in the same classroom. Essentially, the NP's in my program are being taught the medical model--which I personally think is great. It's been an incredible experience so far getting to learn from the RN's in my class. They are all brilliant and contribute so much to the complexity and critical thinking involved in our case studies and class discussion. We take the exact same courses; the only difference is that they can choose to achieve their NP cert or both their NP and PA certs by either completing the extra quarter of clinical hours or not; just about all of our lecturers are specialists (MD/DO) with the rare occasion of having an NP, PA, or both NP/PA (alumni).

 

However, with all of the support NP's get to achieve autonomy--SB491, for example (in CA), I feel as though my program defies the purpose of this attempt to separate NP's from PA's. I have also researched jobs for the heck of it to find that NP's are in significant demand--especially in Northern Ca (which, of course, I attribute to the huge support RN's have in CA). However, the fact that my program even exists should say something about the validity of PA's compared to NP's--RIGHT? 

 

I also fear that physicians who are looking for a PA will find that I went to this program and realize that perhaps I was taught the nursing model, since I shared classes with NP's. I would like to gain support from my faculty (who lobbied for SB491......in the classroom....) to really advertise our program and to gain better recognition for PA's--even if it is hopping on an NP's back and using them as a stepping stool to gain that recognition. I doubt that many of the students in my class (and faculty) acknowledge the disparities between NP's and PA's in California. 

 

All in all, I'd like to get your opinion on this matter. What would you think if down the road more and more programs started training PA's along side NP's (or vice versa)? Do you think that the existence of my program could pioneer the idea that NP's and PA's are equal in terms of knowledge, capabilities, skills and education? 

[EMEDPA]

as long as all students are taught to pa level standards(which are quite a bit higher than np standards, especially with regards to clinical hrs) I would be ok with it

[Lexapro]

Sounds like a great idea. I think any school that is training multiple healthcare professionals should seek to educate them together as much as possible and I think that's the trend for the future. I am in NP school and will be taking psychopharm classes in the school of medicine and pharmacy, for example (we don't have a PA program).

[Guest Paula]

I see  a problem with this idea.  If the NPs in your program have the option of being certified as a PA and an NP they have a great advantage.  They have the opportunity to apply for any job and it would essentially exclude PAs from being considered especially in independent NP states.  NPs would be trained as PAs, but work as NPs.  

 

PAs are not given the opportunity to certify as NPs?  They should have the option for an extra semester to gain the RN and nursing theory stuff and take both exams and get dual certification.   

 

Or....All NP and PA programs unite and train together and produce a Licensed Independent Medical Practitioner who has independent practice rights in all states with independent prescribing rights and have one national certifying  board.   Then cease the PA/NP professions as individual professions.  The LIMP (oh, gosh....noooooo...what a horrible acronym!) becomes the primary care providers of the USA and FP physicians go into a specialty and get re-boarded in something else. 

[EMEDPA]

or Practical Independent Medical Providers...allowing those of us who are fathers to be Pimp Daddys!

[rpackelly]

UC Davis has been educating PAs and NPs together since 1979, both in the medical model.   Their model of co-training works well and they have produced over 1800 very competent providers.  What does not work so well at times are the politics of the medical and nursing schools, financial divisions and constraints due to the fiscal “feast or famine” that is the California budget, and the entrenched academic interests and turf battles.  Many of these concerns are changing/have changed, etc.  Much of it has to do with the location in northern California and the sheer power of unionized nursing there.   UC Davis was never an easy place for PAs to work for that reason; the nursing union is so strong.  However, they do not influence education or training and the hospital is outstanding.   I am very hopeful that they are able to leverage their strengths into a great PA master’s program and overcome any structural weaknesses.  

 

I just got a mailing for alums (I did my masters there) that featured a very nice glossy brochure for the program and the School of Nursing.......quite long.   There was also a magnet with “Remember your first patient”, a picture, and a logo for the School of Nursing.  PAs were certainly not mentioned on the magnet and only twice in the brochure.  I was a little disappointed in this and my check is not in the mail.  

[Coast2CoastPAC]

 

I just got a mailing for alums (I did my masters there) that featured a very nice glossy brochure for the program and the School of Nursing.......quite long.   There was also a magnet with “Remember your first patient”, a picture, and a logo for the School of Nursing.  PAs were certainly not mentioned on the magnet and only twice in the brochure.  I was a little disappointed in this and my check is not in the mail.  

 

 

rpackelly--the communications department came to our class to tell us they were doing this--they want financial support from the alumns since there is literally ZERO scholarship assistance exclusive to the PA students (all the SON students get some kind of funding--if you're an RN...). Now, I made it VERY clear how I felt in the fact that PA's are getting left behind quite often in terms of acknowledgement in this program (many of my PA classmates have also voiced their opinion on this). We are shoved in with the MS nursing students and PhD nursing students and it really feels like that--"shoved in". Like we are a last thought. Honestly, I am livid that they reached out to the alumn in this way and again continued to not acknowledge the PA profession. I have offered my services to the communication department so they can have a "PA voice" in their advertising. Neither I nor my classmates were given the opportunity to offer our thoughts on the alumni brochure or magnets. I am very sorry. It's unfortunate, but you now have a taste of what the students are going through here. The stepchild of the SOM and the SON....

[Coast2CoastPAC]

I see  a problem with this idea.  If the NPs in your program have the option of being certified as a PA and an NP they have a great advantage.  They have the opportunity to apply for any job and it would essentially exclude PAs from being considered especially in independent NP states.  NPs would be trained as PAs, but work as NPs.  

 

PAs are not given the opportunity to certify as NPs?  They should have the option for an extra semester to gain the RN and nursing theory stuff and take both exams and get dual certification.   

 

Or....All NP and PA programs unite and train together and produce a Licensed Independent Medical Practitioner who has independent practice rights in all states with independent prescribing rights and have one national certifying  board.   Then cease the PA/NP professions as individual professions.  The LIMP (oh, gosh....noooooo...what a horrible acronym!) becomes the primary care providers of the USA and FP physicians go into a specialty and get re-boarded in something else. 

Thank you for your reply, Paula. I think you have a very logical approach to this. Unfortunately, I don't see this concept evolving any time soon, but, nevertheless, I'd like to think my program is "trying"...

 

PA's are NOT given the opportunity to get their NP. 

[Coast2CoastPAC]

I'm interested to know how other PA programs are getting their Master's Degree courses in? We were a last minute thought and shoved in with the School of Nursing to earn our Master's of Science in Health Services (not MSPAS), where we have to listen to various MS/PhD Rn's and physicians talk to us about nursing (most of the time, we had a great speaker come in and talk about the ACA--which most of us appreciated). However, we are required to write a thesis and attend these classes (our most recent one was "Health Status and Care Systems" with the RN students). Do other PA programs have similar requirements for their master's degree??

 

 

(The MS courses have no effect on our medical curriculum--essentially they are just in addition to everything else we were already doing).

 

I'm also happy with whatever MS degree I get--as I know it won't affect my ability to practice medicine. I am just curious how other programs added the master's component to the already strenuous medical curriculum.

[cc56]

I graduated from UC Davis which has both NP/PA training at the same time.  I love the fact that I did it, and loved working next to the RN's.  It helps bring together the community.  As "mid-level" providers we do the same type of work.  I think it helps foster a good environment for us to work together.  If we can help prop each other up and advance as a group it helps us and them.  The California Nursing unions/ board is very strong, I would say stronger than the PA advocacy groups.  If we fight each other and try to demonize I think we will both fall.   

[JohnnyM2]

All in all, I'd like to get your opinion on this matter. What would you think if down the road more and more programs started training PA's along side NP's (or vice versa)? Do you think that the existence of my program could pioneer the idea that NP's and PA's are equal in terms of knowledge, capabilities, skills and education?

If the last sentence of your query is true, then there is no longer any need for PA schools. All prospective PAs should just become NPs.

It would be far more acceptable for PAs to train with MDs. IMHO, for PAs to train full time with NPs is anathema to the PA profession. Especially given the preferential degree treatment given NPs as reflected in your post. Please people, we should never be accepting of the idea that PAs=NPs and it it's the job of the PA schools to ensure that PAs receive a HIGHER level of training. At UC Davis, the nursing profession has already won by ensuring that PAs cannot be trained to a higher level of competency because they have seized control of the curriculum. This it's consistent with a post elsewhere in this forum that most "mid-level" provider jobs in NorCal are advertised for NPs. In fact, the term "mid-level provider" is, in itself, designed to establish NP/PA equivalency. Please don't let yourself be sucked in.

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[BetsyMiller]

I personally don't see any problem with it.  Yes, we are held to higher standards, but the material being taught is similar.  We all should have the same goal to make medicine better.  

[PACdan]

I feel that medical schools which also have a PA program, are a much more appropriate setting to mix students. And many do join PA and med students for certain classes.

 

I will be taking several courses together with med students at their school, right across the street from my PA school, per our institutions' strong relationship. The NP students are not mixed in, their nursing classes are separate.

 

Seems a good start to building our (MD-PA) required future professional relationship.

 

 

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[JohnnyM2]

I personally don't see any problem with it. Yes, we are held to higher standards, but the material being taught is similar. We all should have the same goal to make medicine better.

Sorry, but I think you are being terribly naive. Who says PAs are held to higher standards? I doubt NPs would agree. Sure the material is "similar", but do you really want it to be exactly the same? As for having "the same goal to make medicine better", undoubtedly, but platitudes like that miss the essential point that nursing associations are looking at nursing employability and pay. There are more of them and they are unionized so they are both better organized and better funded. If PAs don't work to differentiate themselves, they may lose that opportunity and end up being considered inferior to NPs who are getting Doctorates in droves. It is a concern to me and should be a concern to others (PAs and prospective PAs) that so many job listings (in NorCal) are for NPs only, and in many other parts of the country are for PAs or NPs as though they were completely interchangeable.

My overall message is this: If there is no difference between PAs and NPs in the minds of patients and employers, the PA profession will suffer a loss of jobs and pay as well as prestige. You may not agree with me today. Later it will be to late to realize I was right. For my part, I am totally convinced of this and fear that many PA schools are falling right into the trap.

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[ventana]

I would not want to dumb down the PA education to the NP level.

[Mainer]

UC Davis is unique to nursing education and reflects the most rigor of all programs in which NP's can attend.  That's because it's a PA school (hopefully with PA standards).  It's good to know that there are NP's who might be appropriately trained (assuming they actually complete all the clinical/didactic requirements of a PA), but PA's are better suited to train and practice with physicians, not NP's. 

 

Most (nearly all) NP programs are part-time permitting NP students to work as RNs full-time.  NP courses are typically online with limited science.  Nursing education continues to be all over the map without basic educational standards, and a scope of practice that is limited, but still lacking appropriate practice oversight. Nursing and Medicine are simply two different animals.  If a nurse wants to practice medicine, they should apply to PA or MD/DO school. 

[JohnnyM2]

... PA's are better suited to train and practice with physicians, not NP's.

And...

Nursing and Medicine are simply two different animals. If a nurse wants to practice medicine, they should apply to PA or MD/DO school.

Thank you. I am so glad that you get it, Mainer. Spread the word. There is a lot of work to be done with colleagues, employers and PA schools.

 

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[JohnnyM2]

I feel that medical schools which also have a PA program, are a much more appropriate setting to mix students. And many do join PA and med students for certain classes.

 

I will be taking several courses together with med students at their school, right across the street from my PA school, per our institutions' strong relationship. The NP students are not mixed in, their nursing classes are separate.

 

Seems a good start to building our (MD-PA) required future professional relationship.

 

 

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This is how it should be done!!! EXACTLY.

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