katana Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Without going into too much personal detail, I'm looking for some advice. I'm a new graduate working in a fairly intense surgical subspecialty. I'm about 3 months into my first job. Things are not going well with my SP. I've come to find out that I'm actually the 3rd PA he's hired in less than a year. One quit after a month, the second quit after a couple months. Neither one gave any notice, and they left because of the way he was treating them in and out of the OR. He has a terrible temper that he just cannot seem to control. I was warned about it by other physicians (who apparently have a pool going on how long I'm going to last). Even the department head told me, "He's a really great guy at heart but he's a new surgeon and just hasn't learned how to deal with people yet." (The guy's in his late 30's. My initial thought was that most people are fully formed by that age.) I'm getting a little fed up with being yelled at almost on a daily basis. I admit I'm far from perfect, but often times, the a$$ chewings I get are for things that are outside my control or are completely unfair expectations of a new graduate. An example is that I didn't stop an ER physician from intubating a patient two weeks into the job. Apparently my SP didn't feel she needed to be intubated even though he had not yet evaluated the patient himself. Obviously, the intubation was not my decision. I also got yelled at for not picking up subtle findings on a CT that were missed by the radiologist who he thinks is "an idiot". He tells me I'm committing malpractice and that I don't care about my patients when such things happen. As a new graduate PA, I should not be expected to contradict an ER physician or an experienced radiologist just because my SP disagrees with them. He yells at me in front of my colleagues, and several times I've had people tell me I should complain for the way he's treated me. A few times, I've had to smooth things over for other people he's yelled at publicly. I know that if I do complain about him, he'll see me as a whiner and I'll never get anywhere with him. I keep hoping things will improve, but I'm rapidly losing my patience. I've never been a quitter in the past, but I'm considering finding an exit strategy. My question is, how bad will this look as a new grad leaving my first job after 3 months? The other two who quit are currently employed, so I know its still possible to find a job. But it can't look good on a resume. Has anyone been in a similar situation? I'd love to say I can stick it out a year, but I'm starting to doubt that and am honestly thinking that staying may also negatively impact my career in that I'm not learning from him. Its also causing me to doubt every decision I make and is taking a toll on my confidence as a medical provider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Looks like he's got a new punching bag...you! I promise you're not going to last too much longer than the others. You will eventually hit a mind snap and decide it just isn't worth it. Get that resume out there even if you have to give it to a recruiter. This doc obviously has low self esteem and the only way he can boost his up is to try to break everyone else's down. It's not going to look bad if you explain you're the third PA in one yr...that speaks for itself. I'd tell you to sit down and talk with him but it only appears he speaks in one tone and that's loud and obnoxious. Good luck and get going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Steve Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 No money is worth being berated. You and your SP have a relationship, albeit a monetary one, but it's still a partnership. Right now, you are being abused. Would you recommend people stick in an abusive relationship, hoping it will get better? "He's really a great guy..he just gets angry sometimes. Not really his fault. I'm not perfect, I don't mean to make him mad...I'll work harder to make him happier". Sounds silly, doesn't it? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdenning Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Clearly this guy has issues, and walking away might ultimately be the right thing to do. In the meantime, can you talk to the other docs in the group? Do they have a practice manager you can talk to to try to work on the situation? Ultimately, if the guy just keeps going through PAs, it's going to hurt the group and the practice, so you would think they would have some interest in trying to "fix" things first. This guy is clearly not going to respond to you, but he might be encouraged to change his behavior with some pressure from the partners. The other docs really need to step up here for you. If they don't, or the practice manager tells you they can't do anything for you, then you should walk. But you'll do better moving on to your next job if you are able to say that you really tried everything you could to work with your SP. Just my $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medic25 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 It may be worth talking with the medical staff office or hospital human resources. A lot of hospitals are cracking down on abusive or disruptive physicians, and have a mechanism to deal with repetitively abusive staff. Some even have an overhead page for it during an "episode"; instead of "code blue" it's something along the lines of "code loudmouth". If this guy is like this with the PA's, I'm sure he does the same with other staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted January 14, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 14, 2011 two choices - one stand up to him and sit him down like a child and tell him you are a professional and you demand to be treated like one. NO MORE YELLING (hee hee like the caps) might back fire on you and get fired on the spot though. second choice - invovle HR - document the verbal abuse - communicate to his colleges that you want to stay in the field but can't work for him so will someone else hire you? Invovle HR at the hospital for another job - atleast locally they don't want to loose PA's from the system - seem not to be over concerned with PA's wanting to leave but when the ultimatum is thrown down they want to keep you. Get really thick skin for the time being and realize the most important thing right now is leaving with a good recomendation (almost moot if you go work for one of his partners) good luck and keep us updated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcstout Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Here's something else to consider: Surgery is a demanding field. If this guy is a new attending, the memmories of him getting yelled at in residency may still be fresh. Possibly he is treating you like a surgical intern. The question is: does he involve you in the OR, taking pages from the ER, seeing new patients, etc. Because if he really is fed up with you, he could just stick you with outpatient follow-ups,rounding post-op inpatients and ,discharge summeries(Not that this stuff isn't important). I am a new graduate as well and my perspective is that I am basically the equivalent to a low seniority resident--> I have a lot to learn. Is it possible that even though he is yelling at you and spewing insults, he is showing some interest in getting you to perform better in his own acidic way. Disclosure: my perspective has been influenced by my experiences in the military, flight school, football and other harsh personality-oriented fields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatcat Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Time to get the resume circulating again! You could proceed with the HR route, you could also attempt to have a sit down with your SP to discuss his unprofessional behavior....I seriously doubt either of them will make a difference in dealing with such an emotionally immature individual. I would invest your efforts and energy in finding a new job....the negativity of this situation has no redeeming value for you on either a professional or a personal level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 No job is worth getting ripped on at every turn... No one would fault you for leaving a toxic environment... As for going to HR or the medical staff: is that really something you want to deal with as a new grad? Yes, it may be the right thing to do but at this early point in your career do you want to take the time and spend the effort to help fix this guy? Only you can answer those questions... Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katana Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Here's something else to consider: Surgery is a demanding field. If this guy is a new attending, the memmories of him getting yelled at in residency may still be fresh. Possibly he is treating you like a surgical intern. The question is: does he involve you in the OR, taking pages from the ER, seeing new patients, etc. Because if he really is fed up with you, he could just stick you with outpatient follow-ups,rounding post-op inpatients and ,discharge summeries(Not that this stuff isn't important). I am a new graduate as well and my perspective is that I am basically the equivalent to a low seniority resident--> I have a lot to learn. Is it possible that even though he is yelling at you and spewing insults, he is showing some interest in getting you to perform better in his own acidic way. Disclosure: my perspective has been influenced by my experiences in the military, flight school, football and other harsh personality-oriented fields. I appreciate this point of view and believe me, I've given myself a "man-up" pep talk many times. I have somewhat of a similar background in that I was in Fire/EMS for 12 years, had a deployment to Iraq, and was a high school wrestler. That's why it would kill me to quit. I think people like you and I are conditioned not to give up. I've been looking at the situation in as many positive ways as I can, but in the end it may just not be the best way to start a career. There's plenty I like about the job... the hospital is great, all the other staff are great, the pay is great. But in the end, I work solely for my SP. He specifically wanted a new grad, but doesn't seem to have the patience to deal with one. He remarked to me once that he hated having students in residency because they were annoying and always asked him "stupid questions". Well, that's what trainees tend to do. I guess he feels he was born a surgeon and the learning curve never applied to him. I can fully appreciate the stress he's under. As a new surgeon, he isn't yet board certified and doesn't want to have bad outcomes on his record. He's good at what he does and is very appropriately careful about his work. In the end, its a personality conflict with someone I'm completely subordinate to. Its happened to me before with an eventual good outcome, but this just doesn't seem to be going anywhere good. Like others have said, I don't want to develop an "abused spouse" mentality. There's never an excuse for bad behavior, especially amongst professionals. For now, I'm going to keep giving it my all, but I'm dusting off my resume and starting to work some connections to see what else is out there. I can continue to hack it until something better comes along...hopefully not in the too distant future. In the end, if I leave I think it will probably serve as a wake up call to him and the hospital that his attitude has got to change. Third time's a charm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatcat Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I can continue to hack it until something better comes along...hopefully not in the too distant future. In the end, if I leave I think it will probably serve as a wake up call to him and the hospital that his attitude has got to change. Third time's a charm... I've been amazed how institutions tolerate disruptive behaviors unless there is a legal threat that actually makes them take action. My guess is they will continue to overlook this behavior and make excuses for this MD. The potential for so very many bad outcomes exists when any medical team member devalues the contributions of others that work with them. Move on and let this MD be someone else's problem. Knowing when to let go is a life skill that is just as important as determination and tenacity. Best of luck with your job search! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdj89 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I would try to hang out with himm after work and make friends. I would explain to him I dont like this kind of treatment. People respect you more when you speak the truth instead of sucking up like a sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houstonian Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I totally agree that this surgeon's behavior is abuse--expecting a PA with two weeks of experience to contradict an ER physician and to diagnose things on an x-ray that were missed by a trained radiologist. You report only to him. Get out of there as quickly as you can. Since you report only to him, this situation really cannot be worked out internally. If it were me, and it were possible to leave without having another job lined up, I would do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
browndog Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I'd be gone. As soon as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookspa Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 be gone asap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcstout Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Hey, if you left at least you would now hold the record of the PA who stuck with this guy the longest! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katana Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 Hey, if you left at least you would now hold the record of the PA who stuck with this guy the longest! :)[/quoteH That's definitely occurred to me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterallsummer Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Start looking for a new job now. IMHO, your first job should be one where you feel free to learn. This is literally the complete opposite of that. Why did you work so hard to become a PA just to put up with this ****? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
familygal Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 LEAVE. NOW. I agree with above posts, that if you explain your situation to your next interviewer (you are the 3rd PA this year), it will speak for itself. And going to HR might not hurt, but remember, you need to look out for #1 (yourself). It is funny the things we get ourselves into as new PAs. When I look back at my first job and the contract I signed, I was just so.....green:;;D: My next job, I made sure to ask the questions "Why is this position available?" and "How many other PAs have held this position and why did they leave?" Go ahead, ask if you can contact the PAs who used to work in those position, and if they don't give you the info, consider it a red flag. Believe me, within 2 years of practice many of my PA friends have had 1,2, and 3 jobs. Your supervising doc's actions are completely unacceptable, and while everyone experiences a degree of stress in their first year out, you should not feel degraded. Your environment as a new grad needs to be an accepting and learning environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
familygal Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Another thing: Do you work for a big company or is it a private practice? The previous physician supervisor to the mid-level group I'm with now was complained about for similar stuff you're describing, and they removed him from that position and replaced him with someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Just goes to prove familygal that no one is irreplaceable..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdj89 Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Did you ever try to take the doc out after work for a stress-free conversation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFarnsworth Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 RUN. FAST. You do not need to man up. You need to get out of a toxic environment. Put it this way... if things go badly for a patient and you and your surgeon get sued, is he going to back you up or throw you in front of the bus? My guess is the second option. AND: putting up with this behavior reinforces this surgeon's belief that this is how PAs should be treated. It is WRONG. There is a surgeon in our area who goes through 2-3 PAs a year. And he's still looking. Those in the know stay far away from him. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. Would you take this from someone you were dating? Or a friend? Or... anyone? I sincerely hope not. As for your initial question, how long would I put up with it? About a month. That way I could assess whether or not this was typical behavior. And you don't have to put this job on your resume. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMSArtist Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I 99% agree that you should probably get out and find a better environment. The 1% reservation comes from a couple of bosses that I've had with similar issues. They berated me, yelled at me, mocked me, etc and with each one I finally snapped and told them off. In both cases that was all it took, and they did a 180 in attitude. (I actually had inside info on one that said yelling back might work, the second was just intuition) Sometimes these people just feel the immature need to push people and push some more until they find a limit and then having found that limit never test it again... Who knows if this guy is one of these types... A strategy to try might be to get your resume out... potentially line something up and then let him have it. Either way... just my two cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted January 31, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 31, 2011 I 99% agree that you should probably get out and find a better environment. The 1% reservation comes from a couple of bosses that I've had with similar issues. They berated me, yelled at me, mocked me, etc and with each one I finally snapped and told them off. In both cases that was all it took, and they did a 180 in attitude. (I actually had inside info on one that said yelling back might work, the second was just intuition) Sometimes these people just feel the immature need to push people and push some more until they find a limit and then having found that limit never test it again... Who knows if this guy is one of these types... A strategy to try might be to get your resume out... potentially line something up and then let him have it. Either way... just my two cents... worth a try - after getting screamed at by an attending repeatedly and him saying I should just quit and a whole bunch of other things that only HR should be saying I got really pissed and told him off - got blown up the chain as a PA had spoken back to a doc (and we all know that is not allowed ;-) Ended up with management appologizing for him (but he never did) and he was okay for a while, but then again last night (I have moved onto another job as it was not worth fighting..... and this was a per diem shift) he was a total A**........ wanted just to walk out but stayed and logged in my memory to never work with him again..... point is you can't teach on old dog (or crappy person) new tricks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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