Interesting Comparisons

[Houstonian]

Credit Hours required for graduation:

 

NP - 39 - 64 hours

Ph.D. - 72 hours

Ph.D in nursing - 72 hours

DNP - 74 hours

Law School - < 90 hours

PA School - 120 to 135 hours

MD - >200 hours

 

These numbers were obtained form reviewing the current curriculum of some high-quality programs - Vanderbilt for NP, Ph.D. in nursing, and DNP. Baylor College of Medicine PA program and MD program. Harvard for law school.

[physasst]

Credit Hours required for graduation:

 

NP - 39 - 64 hours

Ph.D. - 72 hours

Ph.D in nursing - 72 hours

DNP - 74 hours

Law School - < 90 hours

PA School - 120 to 135 hours

MD - >200 hours

 

These numbers were obtained form reviewing the current curriculum of some high-quality programs - Vanderbilt for NP, Ph.D. in nursing, and DNP. Baylor College of Medicine PA program and MD program. Harvard for law school.

 

 

You can't really compare the PhD degree, cause thats 72 hours AFTER your Masters. My DHSc was 70 credit hours but you had to have a Masters to even get in.

[EMEDPA]

the 74 hrs for dnp is generous.

this program is 63 and includes 1000 hrs of clinicals

http://www.umassd.edu/nursing/graduateprograms/dnpprogram/

 

so, it's basically 1/2 of an a.s. level pa program.....:)

[Hallcrest]

the 74 hrs for dnp is generous.

this program is 63 and includes 1000 hrs of clinicals

http://www.umassd.edu/nursing/graduateprograms/dnpprogram/

 

so, it's basically 1/2 of an a.s. level pa program.....:)

 

Don't forget that these folks did go to nursing school, completing (in many cases) the same prerequisite coursework for their nursing program as many PA's have done for entry into PA school...

 

My RN program was 60 hours after pre-reqs; PA school only requires me to take 1 additional chemistry to meet application requirements.

[EMEDPA]

the majority of pa programs now require a bs to gain admission.

I really was speaking more about the clinical hours. 1000 would be less than any pa program by a good margin but is at the high end for any np programs, some of which have as few as 500 hrs.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Don't forget that these folks did go to nursing school, completing (in many cases) the same prerequisite coursework for their nursing program as many PA's have done for entry into PA school...

 

My RN program was 60 hours after pre-reqs; PA school only requires me to take 1 additional chemistry to meet application requirements.

 

Not trying to be confrontational, but you either went above the nursing school requirements or applying to a PA school with very few requirements.

 

O'neal, RN, BSN

[EMEDPA]

prereqs vary greatly between programs.

many places basically want a pre-med preparation with ochem, etc while others are ok with english, psych, a+p, micro, 1 chem, and 1 bio.

I'm more in favor of high hce requirements and reasonable coursework and gpa requirements. if someone has the full meal deal pre-med requirements with ochem, physics, biochem, etc and a high gpa they should just shoot for medschool.

one of the appealing things about pa school is that you can get in with any major as a background and a handful of prereqs.

if we go to a model where everyone has to be a biochem major we will be losing something I think.

if I had to take ochem and biochem back in the day I would not have applied to pa school.

[Will352ns]

Don't forget that these folks did go to nursing school, completing (in FEW cases) the same prerequisite coursework for their nursing program as many PA's have done for entry into PA school...

 

My RN program was 60 hours after pre-reqs; PA school only requires me to take 1 additional chemistry to meet application requirements.

 

You may want to look into the pre-recs for most RN programs. It isn't as robust as you may think....your program may be the exception to the rule.

 

Many times, the science requirements required for nursing programs can be satisfied with Intro or Principle courses....which do not fly in most PA programs. A chem requirement at all isn't needed for many and if it is, it's only one class. I have never heard of a O'chem or biochem requirement for an RN program yet many PA programs have this requirement. Also, I haven't seen any RN programs with upper level Bio requirements (Gen, Cell Bio, ect)...whereas many PA programs also have these requirements....hell, you won't even see those type of requirements in NP programs.

 

While what you are saying may fit the mold for a few comparison programs, they would be the exceptions, not the norm. Do keep in mind, I am speaking in very general terms. I am absolutely sure you could find examples to prove me wrong.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

prereqs vary greatly between programs.

many places basically want a pre-med preparation with ochem, etc while others are ok with english, psych, a+p, micro, 1 chem, and 1 bio.

I'm more in favor of high hce requirements and reasonable coursework and gpa requirements. if someone has the full meal deal pre-med requirements with ochem, physics, biochem, etc and a high gpa they should just shoot for medschool.

one of the appealing things about pa school is that you can get in with any major as a background and a handful of prereqs.

if we go to a model where everyone has to be a biochem major we will be losing something I think.

if I had to take ochem and biochem back in the day I would not have applied to pa school.

 

Absolutely agree. I just had to clarify because, well, I'm OCD like that. I had to take an extra bio 2 and chem 2 (I took gen chem 1 instead of intro chem for nursing, so I was ahead) just so I could apply to handful of schools. I was still severely limited because I didn't want to take orgo and, even less, organic 2. If I had to do that I would have just take physics concurrently as well and applied to med school.

[physasst]

This reminds me of this....

 

http://xkcd.com/435/

[lovinglifefully]

A local NP Immersion Program (which is essentially what any PA program is) requires well over 100 Credit Hours.

In terms of clinical hours, they also require quite a load, and they are CONCENTRATED into ONE area. They are not spread out across 12 different specialties.

 

Why do PAs continue on their endless quest of some kind of superiority contest?

[jwells78]

NPs want to be doctors and PAs just want equality amongst clinical associates; I don't see a superiority complex ...

[EMEDPA]

A local NP Immersion Program (which is essentially what any PA program is) requires well over 100 Credit Hours.

In terms of clinical hours, they also require quite a load, and they are CONCENTRATED into ONE area. They are not spread out across 12 different specialties.

 

that immersion program also includes the rn, right? it's a direct entry any bs to msn np program like vanderbilt I assume?

the "all the hours in one specialty" argument doesn't hold water. a local fnp program near me has 500 hrs of clinicals all in fp. so what? I had 500 hrs of fp as well in addition to about 2000 other clinical hours in em, peds, psych, IM, obgyn, and surgery.

500 hrs in FP would be equivalent to one clinical rotation in my program. we had 2 that were 500 hrs(fp and em OR fp twice for 24 weeks/1000 hrs total) + 6 other 5 week rotations. to get the clinical exposure I did an np would need fnp+acnp+rnfa+anp certs.

it's not about a superiority contest, it's about accuracy. I know some excellent NPs out there. one runs our county health dept. he knows a lot more than I (or most docs) do about STIs, HIV, HEP B and C, etc. I am not anti-np.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

A local NP Immersion Program (which is essentially what any PA program is) requires well over 100 Credit Hours.

In terms of clinical hours, they also require quite a load, and they are CONCENTRATED into ONE area. They are not spread out across 12 different specialties.

 

Why do PAs continue on their endless quest of some kind of superiority contest?

 

I assume you are talking about Seattle University? 116 credit hours, which includes BSN courses, and 690 clinical hours for family practice. It includes 3 clinical rotations, which I assume are spread out into peds, WH, and FP. Just peds, WH, and FP rotations (ignoring other very relevant rotations like IM and EM) for a PA program would be 720 hours depending on the program and assuming only one rotation in each where an elective wasn't done in one of the specialties.

 

I do not like vague assertions and like total transparency. That's why I do it.

[EMEDPA]

agree with above. I created an em focus by choosing my electives well and ended up with 27 weeks of training in em, peds em, and trauma surgery and 27 weeks in IM, OB, psych, and FP.

[Houstonian]

You can't really compare the PhD degree, cause thats 72 hours AFTER your Masters. My DHSc was 70 credit hours but you had to have a Masters to even get in.

 

Some doctoral programs require a master's degree prior to entry. However, many do not and still only require 72 hours!

[ventana]

Interresting facts on DNP

 

Degree and certificate options

 

Doctor of Nursing practice (DNP) with a focus in one of three areas:

 

• Adult Gerontology Primary Care Nurse Practitioner
  
• Adult Health Clinical Specialist
  
• Community Health Clinical Specialist
  

An RN-BS student with GPA of 3.3 or better and the recommendation of RN-BS program director may take up to 9 graduate credits (from among the following courses: NUR 500, 511, 520, 550 or 605) that count as undergraduate electives. If the student applies and is admitted to graduate study immediately after receiving the BS degree, the courses will also count toward the DNP degree.

 

In addition, the Graduate Admissions Program (GAP) is open to registered nurses who hold a BS or BA degree in another field. GAP students take NUR 503 Transition to Advanced Practice Nursing in which they complete a portfolio that documents how they attained undergraduate nursing program outcome objectives. With an academic advisor, students review this portfolio and select an additional course to round out their preparation for graduate nursing study.

 

Finally, a 27 credit, post-MS, DNP program is available for nurses who hold an MS in Nursing and certification in as an APRN.

---

Program Requirements

 

In addition to completing the UMD admission package, applicants to the DNP program must:

 

• Have a GPA of 3.0 in undergraduate study.
  
• Hold a Bachelor of Science degree in nursing from a program accredited by the NLNAC or CCNE. Registered Nurses with a bachelor degree in a related field may seek admission through the GAP program.
  
• Hold a current license to practice professional nursing in MA or be eligible to obtain a license. Please submit a copy of your license.
  
• Have at least one year of clinical experience in acute care nursing
  
• Submit three references that document competence and leadership in professional nursing practice. If possible, one reference should be from a supervisor who is a professional nurse that holds a DNP and one from a nurse educator.
  
• GRE is NOT required.
  
• Applications are due March 15 for Fall matriculation.
  

---

Degree Requirements

 

DNP students complete 63 academic credits that include over 1000 hours of clinical practice. In addition, students complete a scholarly project that translates research into practice and measures the effectiveness of this intervention in terms of both health outcomes and cost effectiveness.

 

 

 

 

 

So after a Masters (I have two of them) I should be able to take 27 credit hours and get a DNP (If I were an RN)

 

This is a LONG ways away from any type of intensive programming..... 27 hours - heck I think I had one semester in PA school that had that many credits......

 

 

 

Those are the facts as printed on UMASS nursing page

[bobuddy]

Interresting facts on DNP

 

Degree and certificate options

 

Doctor of Nursing practice (DNP) with a focus in one of three areas:

 

• Adult Gerontology Primary Care Nurse Practitioner
  
• Adult Health Clinical Specialist
  
• Community Health Clinical Specialist
  

An RN-BS student with GPA of 3.3 or better and the recommendation of RN-BS program director may take up to 9 graduate credits (from among the following courses: NUR 500, 511, 520, 550 or 605) that count as undergraduate electives. If the student applies and is admitted to graduate study immediately after receiving the BS degree, the courses will also count toward the DNP degree.

 

In addition, the Graduate Admissions Program (GAP) is open to registered nurses who hold a BS or BA degree in another field. GAP students take NUR 503 Transition to Advanced Practice Nursing in which they complete a portfolio that documents how they attained undergraduate nursing program outcome objectives. With an academic advisor, students review this portfolio and select an additional course to round out their preparation for graduate nursing study.

 

Finally, a 27 credit, post-MS, DNP program is available for nurses who hold an MS in Nursing and certification in as an APRN.

---

Program Requirements

 

In addition to completing the UMD admission package, applicants to the DNP program must:

 

• Have a GPA of 3.0 in undergraduate study.
  
• Hold a Bachelor of Science degree in nursing from a program accredited by the NLNAC or CCNE. Registered Nurses with a bachelor degree in a related field may seek admission through the GAP program.
  
• Hold a current license to practice professional nursing in MA or be eligible to obtain a license. Please submit a copy of your license.
  
• Have at least one year of clinical experience in acute care nursing
  
• Submit three references that document competence and leadership in professional nursing practice. If possible, one reference should be from a supervisor who is a professional nurse that holds a DNP and one from a nurse educator.
  
• GRE is NOT required.
  
• Applications are due March 15 for Fall matriculation.
  

---

Degree Requirements

 

DNP students complete 63 academic credits that include over 1000 hours of clinical practice. In addition, students complete a scholarly project that translates research into practice and measures the effectiveness of this intervention in terms of both health outcomes and cost effectiveness.

 

 

 

 

 

So after a Masters (I have two of them) I should be able to take 27 credit hours and get a DNP (If I were an RN)

 

This is a LONG ways away from any type of intensive programming..... 27 hours - heck I think I had one semester in PA school that had that many credits......

 

 

 

Those are the facts as printed on UMASS nursing page

 

 

And - this is what I have been seeing also. I know you have seen my "Reality check" thread. So..... If I get my RN online from a place like Excelsior (while continuing to work as a PA) - then do a program just like the one mentioned above - then is the cost and time worth it?

 

Ventana - you already mentioned that you are losing out close to $50k by the AAPA mistake for EMR incentives. See why I am thinking of jumping ship?

[Guest JMPA]

A local NP Immersion Program (which is essentially what any PA program is) requires well over 100 Credit Hours.

In terms of clinical hours, they also require quite a load, and they are CONCENTRATED into ONE area. They are not spread out across 12 different specialties.

 

Why do PAs continue on their endless quest of some kind of superiority contest?

 

thats the problem with the nursing model, they are not exposed enough to all the medical fields like md/pa students but rather concentrated to one or a few. medicine is all incompassing not focal, and no im not bashing nps, they are far superior cmon they are independent:;;D:

[ventana]

And - this is what I have been seeing also. I know you have seen my "Reality check" thread. So..... If I get my RN online from a place like Excelsior (while continuing to work as a PA) - then do a program just like the one mentioned above - then is the cost and time worth it?

 

Ventana - you already mentioned that you are losing out close to $50k by the AAPA mistake for EMR incentives. See why I am thinking of jumping ship?

 

 

 

first ? - I would wait to see what comes about in the next 2-3 years - gotta believe that the schools start to see the problem and start to do DPA degrees and drag the AAPA into the area they should be... also the ACA is likely going to create a fair amount of change and who knows how it will work out..... I place no faith in the AAPA, but if enough of the members join PAFT and also call and email and pester their representatives then we might just make it.... in 2-4 years these answers will likely be obvious.

 

Also, if NPs really continue to win victories in the political arena once again the schools will see a need for a PA-->DNP degree that would be quicker....

 

 

 

I think the schools will drag the PA profession into the future as the AAPA seems stuck in the past and now bickering among themselves to merely increase their own paychecks....

 

I say FIRE THEM ALL!!

[edwinjvazquez]

thats the problem with the nursing model, they are not exposed enough to all the medical fields like md/pa students but rather concentrated to one or a few. medicine is all incompassing not focal, and no im not bashing nps, they are far superior cmon they are independent:;;D:

 

How many hours should a FNP require? What about ACNP, PNP, ACPNP, PSYNP, CNM, ANP, RNFA? If someone was to do all of these post masters certifications I think it would be between 3000 to 4000 hours and over 200 credits. I understand that PAs are better trained than NPs and they are inturn rewarded with a broader scope of practice. The question about the NP profession should be do they practice adequately within their scope?

[EMEDPA]

. The question about the NP profession should be do they practice adequately within their scope?

no, the question should be " do they stay within their scope?"

I've seen lots of fnp's working on inpatient services and in ER's, places in whcih they have minimal to no training and in areas that clearly fall outside of their specialty certification. I have seen FNPs work as hospitalists for example with zero inpatient medicine rotations. that's just wrong.

In Texas FNPs are not allowed by law to practice in a hospital setting and many were fired a few years ago when that decision came down.

[edwinjvazquez]

no, the question should be " do they stay within their scope?"

I've seen lots of fnp's working on inpatient services and in ER's, places in whcih they have minimal to no training and in areas that clearly fall outside of their specialty certification. I have seen FNPs work as hospitalists for example with zero inpatient medicine rotations. that's just wrong.

In Texas FNPs are not allowed by law to practice in a hospital setting and many were fired a few years ago when that decision came down.

 

Bolton school at Case Western Reserve is a program that I'm familiar with. There is an optional cardiovascular sub specialty within the FNP curriculum that includes inpatient training. This requires more hours and courses than their traditional FNP curriculum. However I do agree that it should be illegal for NPs to practice outside their scope. More states than Texas are beginning to enforce this. I read on another forum that ANCC is developing an ERNP certification exam. Eligibility to sit for exam is based on a submission of a portfolio.

[Guest JMPA]

How many hours should a FNP require? What about ACNP, PNP, ACPNP, PSYNP, CNM, ANP, RNFA? If someone was to do all of these post masters certifications I think it would be between 3000 to 4000 hours and over 200 credits. I understand that PAs are better trained than NPs and they are inturn rewarded with a broader scope of practice. The question about the NP profession should be do they practice adequately within their scope?

 

thats the problem with the nursing model,thats not practicing medicine, it is nursing

[bobuddy]

no, the question should be " do they stay within their scope?"

I've seen lots of fnp's working on inpatient services and in ER's, places in whcih they have minimal to no training and in areas that clearly fall outside of their specialty certification. I have seen FNPs work as hospitalists for example with zero inpatient medicine rotations. that's just wrong.

In Texas FNPs are not allowed by law to practice in a hospital setting and many were fired a few years ago when that decision came down.

 

 

In my other thread where I mentioned that my two PA colleagues lost their jobs - the one PA was in Orthopedics for the past 6 years. Well respected and liked by his patients. When he was let go, they hired a replacement FNP and the practice is paying for them to get the RNFA certification to allow them in the OR.