Failed out of med school, will a PA program even look at me?

[mjl194]

Hello,

 

My girlfriend has just failed out of med school, due to not being able to pass boards.  She had a pretty good med school GPA but she had a panic attack during two of the three tries of passing boards.  She is currently seeking help for the panic attacks.  Basically, after she failed the first time, she freaked out thinking that she wouldn't be able to pass boards and was all consumed with failure and the mounds of debt.  Like stated above, the panic attacks is the reason behind her failure, not a lack of knowledge or drive.

 

If she would have applied to PA school first, and not med school, there isn't much doubt that she would have been accepted in most of the schools that she is interested in.  She has a degree in Biology, with an overall GPA of 3.9 and a hard science GPA of a 3.85.  She has a master's in Health Promotion, with a 4.0.  She has well over 2000 qualified health care hours.  She has an amazing resume with volunteering and other extracurricular activities.  I don't recall her exact GRE score but it was a little above what is considered competitive.

 

Neither of us really knew much about PAs beforehand or it is quiet possible that she would have chosen this route to begin with.  Personally, I think I would have preferred this route for her (not that it is up to me) and know that she would make a great PA.

 

So with all of this said, do you think that any PA school will give her the chance?

 

She has started the application process but I just want to know your opinions on her chances so that I can be prepared to help her through this long, nerve-wracking process.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Timon]

My class has a DO who couldn't match for residency.

The class behind me has two DO students who decided they rather be PAs and left the DO program that our PA program is affiliated with around year 1 / year 2. I don't think it had anything to do with passing boards though.

I think it's possible to make the change and be successful. But she'll need to address her problems with passing boards.

Just know you put this out on a public forum with many different personalities and egos. So get the flame pants ready and brace yourself, as the peanut gallery is coming..

[rev ronin]

PAs have to pass boards, too.  She needs to have demonstrated that she got help, learned from the issue, and overcame the stumble.  She also really needs to articulate why be a PA when she tried to do MD before and was only stopped by failure--PA is not a second choice career for people who can't make it in med school.  And she also needs to take initiative and find new paths forward on her own--assuming the OP is telling the truth about being the principal subject's SO, then the OP is in no way responsible for the principal subject finding her path forward, and, to be blunt, it can be pushy and wrong to try and fix a romantic partner's "failures", since that job and the attendant pathway is theirs, and may or may not involve you.

[mjl194]

Thanks Timon.  I appreciate you letting me know about the former DO students that are now in PA school and for the flames that I will receive.  I have read past topics so I am prepared for it.

 

Rev Ronin,  I also appreciate your input.  I am telling the truth about it being my SO, and not myself.  I am a public accountant with only second hand knowledge of healthcare though my girlfriend of five years.  I/we do know that she will have boards as a PA as well.  Would it be wise to put the help that she received on the application spot for "red flags"?  How detailed should she describe this? I appreciate you bringing up the subject of a second choice career for people.  I completely understand why you/anyone would think this way.  Admittedly, this is obviously a second choice for her, as in she was in med school for three years.  Like previously stated, she didn't really know anything about PAs beforehand because she had her mind made up years ago that she wanted to become a doctor and then she was accepted into med school.  She didn't feel that she needed to research other forms of practicing medicine.  Obviously, she should have done more research in the past and she would have known more about PAs.  How would you suggest that she explain that without it coming across in a negative light (I know that she will come up with her own explanations but when she asks for my opinions I would like to be able to suggest ideas given to me from actual PAs).   The healthcare field is the correct path for her.  She shines in patient interactions and is very knowledgeable with treatment options (according to her rotation exit interviews from the doctors over her).   I do agree to a certain extent of your last comment, as well.  But I just want to know how I should approach this to better help her through this process, not to tell her what to do.  I just want to as educated as I can be on the subject and researching requirements and suggestions from PA schools' websites can only get me so far.  

 

Again, I appreciate both of your responses and look forward to hearing others.   

[mjl194]

Does anyone else have any experiences with this or know of any former med students in your class?

 

Thanks,

 

ML

[EMEDPA]

unless she is up against a hard stop preventing her from taking boards again, can't she just get some counseling/meds, etc, take a prep class and go pass boards rather than start over with a 2+ yr path to PA? I don't imagine many PA programs would consider someone who had failed out of medschool for admission.

[RealityCheck]

I am not attacking anyone individually or personally.

As someone who CHOSE the PA profession and works hard to support it - I am offended when anyone thinks PA is a "fallback" position to anything.

 

Foreign Medical Graduates cannot become PAs just because they can't pass the FLEX or do a US residency. Florida tried that back in the 90s and it was a mass failure.

It is offensive.

 

Non residency trained physicians cannot become PAs just because they won't or can't do a residency. I worked with a DO who was thrown out of his residency for doing something completely stupid. Why on earth would anyone want this person to be a PA if he is stupid to begin with and offensive to the practice of medicine? We are not red headed step children of medicine who take all comers. 

 

If someone cannot make it as an MD/DO or has issues with that profession - WHY is it ok to think they can become a PA instead?

PA is a career, a choice, a calling if you will -- it is not easier than med school or less intense.

 

One has to have a desire, drive and capacity to handle all aspects of medicine. This is not a "backup" profession or a second choice.

 

I am a PA educator. I have had former Russian block physicians who chose to go through PA school in the US as their credentials and histories were destroyed with the fall of the Eastern Block and the lack of infrastructure and govt record keeping. They did not know what a PA was before coming to the US and becoming citizens. Both of these women researched the profession and fully committed to the curriculum and the duration of education - never once asking for any favors since they were "already doctors". They had to convert from metric to US measurements and their dual language skills were a huge bonus to our local population. They both made fine PAs and I was happy to help educate them. This was not a fallback for them. It was a progression of their desires in the right setting for the right reasons.

 

So, to the original post - I hope your significant other can work with her anxiety and issues and can evaluate the reasons for wanting to be in medicine and finds the place she needs to be.

 

25 yr PA

been there, done that

[mjl194]

@EMEDPA, the school has a policy where you are kicked out if you do not pass boards after three tries.  Most schools have a four limit policy but this particular school does not.  She does not want to have to start over at a different medical school and take an additional 7 years from her life.  She would rather start over and do practically the same thing that only takes 2.5-3 years.  Like I previously stated, she made it through the two years of hard science with a good GPA ( for a professional school),  I believe it was a 2.9.

 

@RealityCheck I don't understand what I said or what my girlfriend is doing that would cause you to become offended by it.  The healthcare field is something that she has CHOSEN and is CALLED to do.  In reality, what the two Russian women did isn't much different than what she is wanting/trying to do.  They were doctors in another country and then became PAs when they came to the United States. Hence, PA was their second career choice.  How can you take pity on some people who lost their papers, through no fault of their own, but not on others who have a medical issue, through no fault of their own?  I know a lot of people who have gone back to school to do something similar or completely different because they were either unhappy or was no successful in their original field.  What is the difference?  I surely wouldn't shun these types from the accounting profession.  She, not unlike a lot of people who have changed career paths, was not educated in the PA profession.  I do appreciate your feedback and sorry if I posted something that offended you.

[EMEDPA]

2.9 is not a good gpa. did you mean 3.9?

[mjl194]

Not her undergrad or her masters, her professional GPA.  It is a pretty good GPA for medical school.  I don't know what is considered good in PA school but it was practically a 3.0.  That's just a little below the minimum for most requirements for PA school.  She had an overall GPA of 3.9 and a hard science GPA of a 3.85 in undergrad and a 4.0 in her masters program.

[EMEDPA]

most pa programs require at least  a 3.0 to get in and stay in. 2.9 is a C+.

[RealityCheck]

mjl194 - as I said when I started my post - no personal attacks or individual connotations.

 

I do not like the PA profession being seen by some - not all and not you - as a fallback to inability to pursue other avenues.

 

I would like the profession to stand on its own as a #1 choice.

 

Many physicians I have spoken with over the years have told me that they wished they could have gone to PA school instead.

 

When I went to school there were 54 programs in the whole country. Now well over 130. 

 

So, no offense implied to you or your significant other.

 

In 25 years I have had to explain what I do and what I am too many times and still work with physicians who have no clue. It gets frustrating.

A frequent comment often by physicians is "what, you couldn't cut it in med school". Comments like that imply that this is a lesser profession with diminished knowledge requirements or responsibilities.

 

So, again - just something that has happened to the profession that still strikes a nerve.

[EMEDPA]

now 217 PA programs, including those going through accreditation....

[mjl194]

@ Reality Check.  Oh ok.  I understand a bit more.  After researching PAs and talking with others, I have also known several people in the medical profession that say that PA is a better choice than MD/DO.  I also have heard from my girlfriend about the pompous attitudes of doctors and have witnessed first hand the attitudes of medical students.  I have always cautioned my girlfriend to never be like that.  When she has come home and has told me horror stories of how the doctor, that she was under, treated the nurses and patients I have always told her that is was a teachable moment of how not to act or become, as well.  I appreciate your insight.

 

@ Reality Check  Well, since she has already taken most of the subjects that she will (hopefully) have to take again, it should come easier to her this time around and will hopefully have a 3.0 or higher.  Thanks for letting me know about the requirement of maintaining a 3.0 in most PA programs.  I will not be looking forward (again hopefully) to her coming home after her human anatomy lab.  Nothing is worse, for a non healthcare professional, than hearing what students do to a cadaver or the smell of formaldehyde.  

[EMEDPA]

we all wore scrubs to A+P lab and left them there after. that smell was....memorable to say the least....

[RealityCheck]

When I was a student, we did cadaver lab in the summer --- in Texas.

A bunch of us would go to a Chinese buffet that we could afford.

Boy, could we clear a room. 

We had no clue - no idea what we smelled like.

We just thought the lines got smaller at the buffet................

[db_pavnp]

If PA programs have too big of a bug up their ass about it, go NP instead.  PA programs, with their 10-20 applicant per seat ratios, are a lot like an ugly girl on Match.com.

[Disciple3]

When I was a student, we did cadaver lab in the summer --- in Texas.

A bunch of us would go to a Chinese buffet that we could afford.

Boy, could we clear a room. 

We had no clue - no idea what we smelled like.

We just thought the lines got smaller at the buffet................

Lol

[Madsid]

Hey, this is almost a year out, but (if you don't mind sharing), what did your gf decide to do? Did she apply/ get accepted to PA school? Yhanks,

[Petunia]

This may not be helpful, but since the forum is permanent threads so future people can enjoy them...... I applied to 16 schools.  And I remember 4 of them clearly saying that they will not accept anyone who had gone to medical school.  Off the top of my head, I don't remember which ones (sorry)  but if your girlfriend or anyone else from med school is looking to start as a PA, research and contact the schools directly- there are certainly a few that will disqualify med students

[runforhotdogs]

Hello,

 

My girlfriend has just failed out of med school, due to not being able to pass boards.  She had a pretty good med school GPA but she had a panic attack during two of the three tries of passing boards.  She is currently seeking help for the panic attacks.  Basically, after she failed the first time, she freaked out thinking that she wouldn't be able to pass boards and was all consumed with failure and the mounds of debt.  Like stated above, the panic attacks is the reason behind her failure, not a lack of knowledge or drive.

 

If she would have applied to PA school first, and not med school, there isn't much doubt that she would have been accepted in most of the schools that she is interested in.  She has a degree in Biology, with an overall GPA of 3.9 and a hard science GPA of a 3.85.  She has a master's in Health Promotion, with a 4.0.  She has well over 2000 qualified health care hours.  She has an amazing resume with volunteering and other extracurricular activities.  I don't recall her exact GRE score but it was a little above what is considered competitive.

 

Neither of us really knew much about PAs beforehand or it is quiet possible that she would have chosen this route to begin with.  Personally, I think I would have preferred this route for her (not that it is up to me) and know that she would make a great PA.

 

So with all of this said, do you think that any PA school will give her the chance?

 

She has started the application process but I just want to know your opinions on her chances so that I can be prepared to help her through this long, nerve-wracking process.

 

Thanks in advance.

I am glad I am not the only one. Panic attacks are not as uncommon as people think. CDC states that 25% of Americans have had a serious psychological attack within the last 30 days and 19% had a nonserious psy attack., between the ages of 18-65. Yes, you can take pills for it or learn how to control it and walk yourself down. But, it takes time to see which medications work and also for the exact environmental conditions to be replicated again to see if it really works. Unfortunately, the girl may only have it during those occurrences. It takes a lot of time and patience to practice mindfulness (basically meditation), and it doesnt work for everyone. It's not something one can explain as much as something one must experience to go through it. Oftentimes, it's not the inability to master a exam or class, but learned experience/behavior taught from younger ages that unconsciously subverts one's abilities.

 

Such animosity with meds and PA. I wonder what my friend's uncle says when PA/DO students come to his clinics and do rotations. "Get the heck out of my office you PA's, I am a M.D!!!" I assume he hasn't since he's been doing it for years. Gone are the generations where one does one job for life...unless you are in Japan I guess. So, there is nothing wrong with people choosing different career paths as long as they are good at it. I rather have a MD or PA who is empathetic to a patient then a jackazz who wanted to do it from the start but by definition is a jackazz. I wish your SO luck.

[south]

I can't be the only one thinking this, but have you looked into some sort of retroactive fix to nullify the test results and get at least one do-over?  

 

As in, it turns out that my client has a medical condition which has now come to light and been addressed.  She had not been diagnosed at the time, but she is now.  How about we avoid the whole public lawsuit for a documented disability?

 

There's a time to fold and go do something else and a time to roll up your sleeves and slash away.  Pay a lawyer 10, 20, 30 thousand dollars to threaten, bully, even sue their ass and go to court, she gets that re-test and that piece of paper that allows her to continue, and she is still miles ahead of the cost of PA school.  

 

I dunno. 

[ymm]

I'm also interested in this question, but not exactly the same circumstances.  

 

I graduated with an MD and applied for residency twice in pediatrics with no success.  The main problem, at least on paper, is that I failed two courses during my second year.  I had personal problems outside of school (nothing criminal or drug related, etc) that led to a lot of depression and I came a few points below the passing grade on two courses.  I took a leave of absence to get treatment and came back, passed everything in second year, and finished 3rd and 4th year without any issues, including the board exams.  I have no deficiency in my clinical knowledge and skills and plenty of professors and such I could submit as references.  But I suppose once you have a red flag like that on your application, it's hard to match as things get more competitive with limited residency spots nowadays.  Or so I assume, at least that is what my advisers and deans in school said.

 

In any case, I still want to work in pediatrics and hopefully become a PA in a pediatrician's office and work with children, and I have plenty of volunteering activities and such working with children on my resume.  I'm wondering if this will be a negative on my application if I already have an MD. 

 

I'm also wondering if my prerequisites (biology, physics, organic chemistry, etc) are from a long time ago, more than the 5-7 years recommended is it a good idea to retake these courses to have them more recent or we should only take them once.

 

Also I'm not interested in outrage and whatever I saw above.  There is nothing sacrosanct about a PA or MD degree, these are just vehicles to treating and taking care of patients, as long as it is done for the right reasons, so I'm just not interested in that, thank you.  If you have any constructive criticism or why MDs will not be accepted in PA school or something, I'm interested, just see no reason why people are getting offended.

 

Thanks for any constructive help.

[south]

Again, before I switched to something else and added 3+ years and $100k to the process I would make damn sure that path was utterly and completely blocked by something that absolutely cannot be overcome.  I would work for years and spare no cost.

 

There's no way to say this without coming off as unpleasant, but I honestly find it hard to believe that someone in the situation you describe cannot match in either peds or FP.  

 

Did you turn something down?  I have heard that is the kiss of death in the internet age.  Have you had a neutral party look over everything they are seeing?

 

I know some residency-trained doctors that have some truly abhorrent stuff in their backgrounds, before and during med school.  They did mostly crappy residencies, but there they are. 

 

Thinking of the FMG who has been sending my daughter inappropriate text messages - not the first time he's had a documented problem with little girls.  He works the crappiest job I can think of - but again - there he is.

[ymm]

Again, before I switched to something else and added 3+ years and $100k to the process I would make damn sure that path was utterly and completely blocked by something that absolutely cannot be overcome.  I would work for years and spare no cost.

 

There's no way to say this without coming off as unpleasant, but I honestly find it hard to believe that someone in the situation you describe cannot match in either peds or FP.  

 

Did you turn something down?  I have heard that is the kiss of death in the internet age.  Have you had a neutral party look over everything they are seeing?

 

I know some residency-trained doctors that have some truly abhorrent stuff in their backgrounds, before and during med school.  They did mostly crappy residencies, but there they are. 

 

Thinking of the FMG who has been sending my daughter inappropriate text messages - not the first time he's had a documented problem with little girls.  He works the crappiest job I can think of - but again - there he is.

 

I am going to meet with my advisers again to make sure, but I believe it is pretty much blocked, especially since I am now 2 years out of medical school, and at least 50% of the programs I have seen say no more than 2 years must have passed before application.  And this past year, I applied to over 150 programs in pediatrics and got back one interview, which was a late interview, meaning they likely ranked me low.  My pediatric adviser at my school said she was surprised I even got an interview since after more than a year out of school it is not likely to get anything.  And there is nothing abhorrent in my background, no criminal history, no professionalism issues in medical school, etc.  

 

The thing with FMGs is that their degrees do not depreciate in the US, since they are essentially licensed doctors in their own countries.  I've seen FMGs who are 40 who match here, but for an AMG the degree depreciates quickly since we aren't actually licensed to do anything yet.  Bizarre but that's how it is.  I just don't want to keep wasting time going down a path I don't think will open.