Don't Ask Don't Tell

I was just accepted to PA school, and it has been my goal for years to be a military PA. I would love to serve my country in a medical capacity. I am currently working with recruiters from both the National Guard and the Navy, who are both interested in me as a candidate for ASR and HPSP, respectively.

There is one thing that I am particularly concerned about - I am gay. I understand that gay bashing is part and parcel of the macho military culture, but I'm a grown man - I can handle it. F the haters, right? I am very discreet about my sexuality, and I consider it my personal business. I have no problem fitting in and no one would be able to tell that I am gay unless I told them.

So from your personal experiences as PA's in the military, do you think pursuing this will eventually lead to my discharge? Have you known other LGBT's in the medical corps? Also, it is my understanding that the Guard is a lot more laid back than the Navy. Do you think that I would have less crap to deal with in the Guard than the Navy?

Not a PA yet, however, I did a couple tours in the Navy FWIW. On my second ship a friend of mine in communications was gay and fairly open about it. No one ever threatened his discharge, or hazed him or anything like that. He was just one of the guys but had an affinity for mesh shirts and leather pants every time we hit Spain or Italy. Hilarious guy. No one cared one way or another, as long as he worked as hard as the rest of us, he was one of us.

Good luck with that one. I spent 6 years enlisted in the Navy and 2 as an officer in the Guard. The people in your unit will know more about than you will ever imagine...esp. as an officer they will keep an eye on you. As long as you act straight and remain celibate you may do ok. I was in the military when Clinton instituted "don't ask don't tell" and I thought it was a travesty. If most people who support "don't ask don't tell" understood the living conditions on a ship (200-300 guys in one room with bunks stacked 3 high with 6 urinals, 6 toilets, and 6 showers) or in a military barracks they wouldn't want to be in those circumstance themselves. The idea of being in a shower with 30 guys and 3 or 4 of them gay (openly or not) looking at my "junk" makes my skin crawl. If that's ok then why not let the women and men shower together? If a straight guy should be ok with gay guys checking him out in the shower then the women should be fine with the straight guys looking at them in the shower. Right? Just saying. I'm out (of the military) now and damn glad that I am.

Good luck with that one. I spent 6 years enlisted in the Navy and 2 as an officer in the Guard. The people in your unit will know more about than you will ever imagine...esp. as an officer they will keep an eye on you. As long as you act straight and remain celibate you may do ok. I was in the military when Clinton instituted "don't ask don't tell" and I thought it was a travesty. If most people who support "don't ask don't tell" understood the living conditions on a ship (200-300 guys in one room with bunks stacked 3 high with 6 urinals, 6 toilets, and 6 showers) or in a military barracks they wouldn't want to be in those circumstance themselves. The idea of being in a shower with 30 guys and 3 or 4 of them gay (openly or not) looking at my "junk" makes my skin crawl. If that's ok then why not let the women and men shower together? If a straight guy should be ok with gay guys checking him out in the shower then the women should be fine with the straight guys looking at them in the shower. Right? Just saying. I'm out now and damn glad that I am.

Greg,I understand and support your position on this issue. The OP should also consider that Commissioned Officers are expected to be above reproach in their conduct at all times, and it is the services that set the standards. Officers are expected to comply and enforce standards in the various services. Should one not be able to comply with the expectations , I suggest they seek other opportunities out of uniform to serve this country. Service members aren't permitted to pick those policies that fit their personal circumstances, please don't set yourself up for difficulties. Good luck in your endevors.

Good luck with that one. I spent 6 years enlisted in the Navy and 2 as an officer in the Guard. The people in your unit will know more about than you will ever imagine...esp. as an officer they will keep an eye on you. As long as you act straight and remain celibate you may do ok. I was in the military when Clinton instituted "don't ask don't tell" and I thought it was a travesty. If most people who support "don't ask don't tell" understood the living conditions on a ship (200-300 guys in one room with bunks stacked 3 high with 6 urinals, 6 toilets, and 6 showers) or in a military barracks they wouldn't want to be in those circumstance themselves. The idea of being in a shower with 30 guys and 3 or 4 of them gay (openly or not) looking at my "junk" makes my skin crawl. If that's ok then why not let the women and men shower together? If a straight guy should be ok with gay guys checking him out in the shower then the women should be fine with the straight guys looking at them in the shower. Right? Just saying. I'm out now and damn glad that I am.

I dont think you are correct. How would women being ok with showering with guys make things "even"? Dont bring us into it---thats your own personal issue.

I could careless if the chick in the showers at the gym is gay or not as long as she respects me. As long as we both repsect each others choice in lifestyle everything will be right with the world

TO THE OP: I have known some gay people that have served and are serving. the only issue that Ih ave ever heard of is being careful who you choose to date. While you may be private about your lifestyle your partner may not and I have seen a bad breakup cause TONS of drama for someone serving-----be careful.

I also apprecaite the fact that you are willing to serve and protect our rights to be free and not just some of our rights but ALL of them :-)

Greg,I understand and support your position on this issue. The OP should also consider that Commissioned Officers are expected to be above reproach in their conduct at all times, and it is the services that set the standards. Officers are expected to comply and enforce standards in the various services. Should one not be able to comply with the expectations , I suggest they seek other opportunities out of uniform to serve this country. Service members aren't permitted to pick those policies that fit their personal circumstances, please don't set yourself up for difficulties. Good luck in your endevors.

Isnt the policy "don't ask don't tell"? Its not "if you're gay dont join" so the OP could serve and still comply and enforce standards

<I>The OP should also consider that Commissioned Officers are expected to be above reproach in their conduct at all times, and it is the services that set the standards. Officers are expected to comply and enforce standards in the various services. Should one not be able to comply with the expectations , I suggest they seek other opportunities out of uniform to serve this country.</I>

Yes, CAdams, but isn't the current policy Don't Ask Don't Tell? They don't ask, I don't tell. It's my business. Why shouldn't I be afforded the same opportunities to serve my country and pay for my education?

Isnt the policy "don't ask don't tell"? Its not "if you're gay dont join" so the OP could serve and still comply and enforce standards

Agreed. I don't really see how one would be unable to enforce the don't ask don't tell policy if they were gay. It's a pretty self explanatory policy.

And Greg, you and I both know that on a ship....Showers are single stalls. The only time we had to deal with community showers was in boot.

just_me - Looks like we had a cross posting there!

Greg, and CAdams -

I appreciate your concerns, but it sounds like you guys have some old school attitudes about this issue. DADT is very unpopular amongst Americans, and the younger generation of men and in the service are much more accepting of gays. Needless to say, I've dealt with a lot of haters in my life, and it's made me tough as nails. I'm not scared of anything.

There are about six incredibly conservative people who post with considerable frequency on these forums. Expect them all to stop in and make their fears of homosexuals known. Good to see Greg and CAdams already representing. Honestly, what makes you think a gay man is incapable of conducting himself professionally within the military? Do you think gays are just so sex crazed they might jump you in the shower? Grow up and stop fantasizing.

As to the OP: My best friend is a Navy pilot. I recently had a long conversation with him about his views on DADT and the realities of the policy in practice. He told me that there are two gay men in his unit who are fairly open. They are great pilots and no one discriminates against them. He said it might be different if they weren't officers and incredibly valuable to the military. I would imagine that as an Officer and a PA, you will also be very valuable to the Military. If my friend's experience is any indicator, you shouldn't have too rough of a time.

Dude, this is the military. We have the most angry, viscous, judgmental, socially conservative, homophobes that this country has to offer in our ranks (as well as many others). Do I think that gay people can serve in this military and be good Soldiers, Airmen, Marines, and Seamen? Yes. They do it everyday. Fortunately, we have a policy called, "Don't ask, don't tell" that protects homosexual service-members by forcing them to conceal their sexuality from those angry...et al.....homophobes. Our military has ONE! purpose and that is to "fight and WIN this nation's wars" weather it be by land, by sea, or by air. What it takes to win ought to be in the eyes of every lawmaker and military leader. This is the very reason why the recent request of the pentagon was to keep the current policy in place until such time as the leadership can gather more information from the ranks. Don't give me this, "Shouldn't Soldier's just take orders" BS because those homosexual officers and NCO's who VIOLATED executive policy by announcing their homosexuality are prime examples of such rebuke of orders. Our leaders are looking to what will enable us to WIN.

Call me radical, but I do believe that our angry......et al.... homophobes are more apt to intentionally doing violence to the enemies of this nation. After all, how many gun toting, conservative, angry homophobes do you see at peace rallies across America? Now what can be said about the (lesser in number as well) homosexual community. Our nation's approach to it's military rules, mores, and norms MUST at all times be UTILITARIAN in nature. i.e. we be a VICTORY focused organization even at the expense of the rights of it's members. It has always been this way. We (officers) cannot speak out against our politicians, we (all) cannot run for office, we (all) cannot walk out on our jobs, we (all) must leave our families at a moments notice. The military has ALWAYS been a place that protects democracy yet does not practice it internally. Right now, it seems that the politicians want to use the military as their stomping grounds for installment of homosexual rights with no consideration for what will work in practice. We are not Europe, we are not Israel, we are our own d@mn nation with our own d@mn culture. Right now the angry.....et al...homophobes are who we need to fight and win this nation's wars. "Don't ask, don't tell" is the policy that both appeases them and allows only the most patriotic and dedicated of the homosexual community to serve well as they have to put something they feel is a part of them on hold until they are out. Call me what you want to call me, but it best reflects reality.

I have served with people of all sorts of preferences including sexual. At the end of the day, if you love this country, are willing to obey the rules of the military, and actually love this military, I would work with you any day and most of the angry...et al....homophobes would too.

just_me - Looks like we had a cross posting there!.

Great minds think alike:;;D:

I dunno---I learned at a young age that you should respect others and their differences (not sure WHERE I learned it because my mom can be just as thick as some that post on this board). My bestfriend is gay and gasp.........my bestfriend is a girl ....dun dun duuuuunnnnnn:;;D:

I have had people ask "arent you afraid she might hit on you"---afraid?!?! Actually no and in 10 years it has never happened. To be honest Im more afraid of the drunk guy at the bar that cant handle rejection and is a foot taller than me and weighs almost 100lbs more than me.

Honestly Im not sure how a straight guy can watch porn and then turn around and be concerned with a gay guy looking at him-----or do they make them where the guys "junk" is covered by a black box to protect the eyes of the straight man....that way he can say he never looked at someone elses "junk" where is the "eye rolling emoticon whene you need one":saddd:

As someone who has worked in the medical field for several years, I've seen my share of naked people - men and women, and I am capable of dealing with the human form in a mature and respectful way. I also go to the gym and shower there, and I respect people's privacy.

Brady, I've had similar discussions with my cousin, who is a Marine officer, and he has shared a similar view. He serves with some men that he knows are gay, but he said he would never out them. The policy now, as I understand it, is Don't Ask, Don't Tell, and more informally, Don't Pursue.

Greg,I understand and support your position on this issue. The OP should also consider that Commissioned Officers are expected to be above reproach in their conduct at all times, and it is the services that set the standards. Officers are expected to comply and enforce standards in the various services. Should one not be able to comply with the expectations , I suggest they seek other opportunities out of uniform to serve this country. Service members aren't permitted to pick those policies that fit their personal circumstances, please don't set yourself up for difficulties. Good luck in your endevors.

My God, how nauseating. I just threw up in my mouth a little.

You owe a great many people an apology, including the gay soldiers who have died fighting for your freedom. Not only those soldiers, but also the soldiers who have gay family members. As well as the family members who have gay loved ones in the armed forces.

Your conduct is reproachable, and I feel nothing but pity for you. Regardless, I would never let you touch a single member of my family.

natetaylor -

I appreciate your nuanced take on this issue. I actually agree with you in many ways. I understand that many people in the military are homophobic, and I really don't care. I am not interested in changing the military or making a political statement. We are at war, and any dissent within the ranks would indicate weakness. Nothing should compromise military readiness. I am solely interested in serving our country as a PA, and my private life is my business. That said, it is a shame that people like this: http://www.anthonywoodsforcongress.com/home.html are getting kicked out of the service for something as trivial as their sexual orientation.

I am not in the military but I can comment (as a legal documented US citizen I have that right). I am 100% for Don't ask Don't tell, it is the only logical way around this issue. Look if you are Gay keep it to yourself, I would imagine it would make many in the military that work next to you uncomfortable, so just keep it to your self. Why even make it a discussion? I would imagine that in the military, you need to conform and all be the same? So when you get out let your rainbow flags fly proud, but inside, keep it to yourself?

I mean in foxholes, are we all the same? Is this really a valid social issue (personal issue sure, but social issue)? I mean shouldn't we be talking about being at war in 2 countries for 8 years? Or the huge Oil Spill that can't be stopped? Or our broken borders? Our unemployment rates? Come on....

Hemie once again you overreact and climb on your soapbox of self absorbed indignation.

Now on another note, do you think the Suns can take the Lakers in the semi-conference finals?

Acromion,

It seems he is a well rounded individual. I couldn't find the exact circumstances of his discharge on his website. I would feel for him if he had actually been going about the daily business of the army and his command somehow found out about his homosexual orientation and he was then discharged. Instead, he went to his commanders to discuss his sexual orientation in violation of military policy. I don't see it fit for anyone homo or heterosexual to go to their commanders and discuss their sexuality. It doesn't serve any purpose.

This is an example of someone who checked all of the right blocks and then used his accomplished military career as a lunchpad for attacking "Don't ask Don't tell" and then he moved to politics. I don't see this guy as a victim but instead an opportunist. I'm sure he is much better off now than he was in the military... All he proved was that a homosexual Soldier can do fantastic under the rules of "don't ask, don't tell". This does nothing to address the actual concerns of our military and it's leaders about how open homosexuality would affect its posture.

I'm glad you want to serve and I hope you do. We need people with a heart for the job.

Well guys, I at least have to thank you for helping me understand what I'm up against. But I really wasn't looking for a debate in DADT. By the time I am done with school, it will probably either be amended or repealed. I was really looking for advice on whether I should go for the Guard or the Navy. I understand the Guard is a little more laid back. Is this true?

My God, how nauseating. I just threw up in my mouth a little.

 

You owe a great many people an apology, including the gay soldiers who have died fighting for your freedom. Not only those soldiers, but also the soldiers who have gay family members. As well as the family members who have gay loved ones in the armed forces.

 

Your conduct is reproachable, and I feel nothing but pity for you. Regardless, I would never let you touch a single member of my family.

My conduct is reproachable? What part of it? Not cowering down to the politically correct pressure that exists in many areas of the country that demands I accept your moral values and abandon my own? You will have to kill me to change my moral, social, political, and religious points of view. I'm raising my children with the same value system as are millions of other Americans despite Liberal, politically correct efforts to marginalize and silence us.

I don't hate gay people. I simple disagree with their choices in life. Most of the folks posting here seem to have a little hate in their hearts for people with Conservative / religious, principled points of view that don't approve of homosexuality. Like I said, I'm out of the military now and don't care what happens now. I wouldn't care if they required new recruits to be gay. ...I couldn't care less. It is their butts on the line and if they (the rest of the troops) are ok with it then more power to them. I spent 8 years defending this country, but I no longer think the country represents or even respects me, my family, or my values (social, economic, political, or religious). The Dept. of Homeland Security and Janet Napolitano think that white, gun owning, veterans represent more of a terrorist risk than a 30 y/o Pakistani who travels frequently to Pakistan to learn bomb making. The only group that it is acceptable to discriminate against or racially profile are white conservative males, ostensibly because white males have always had more advantages. Really? I came from a poor, blue collar, union family and worked my way up (against the odds) by earning everything I have ever achieved.

natetaylor calls me a homophobe. I'm not afraid of homosexuals. (for the record I didn't call anyone any names either) I just prefer not to associate with them. Sure, I know that I probably know some homosexuals who I have no idea are gay. The same is probably true when it comes to abortion or other moral or religious views. I'm just not going to knowingly be buddies with either group. That's my choice and most of you don't respect that choice, but then militantly demand that I respect/embrace your points of view or else you will denigrate, disparage and despise everything about me. That's ok with me. I'm not going to change what I believe just to make you or anyone else like me. In fact, I couldn't care less what you think of me.

You folks think you have all of the answers and people like me and other conservative Tea Party folks are living anachronism that have to be silenced at all costs. Good luck. See ya in Nov.

By the way Hemegroup...how many years did you serve in the military in order to develop such an enlightened and informed opinion on the issue? The only reason you feel so compelled to spew on a forum like this is because you feel like you did something more than being born in America to earn it right? I know that you wouldn't be so hypocritical as to publically question the moral character of the very people who provided you the right to do so in the first place..right?

My conduct is reproachable? What part of it? Not cowering down to the politically correct pressure that exists in many areas of the country that demands I accept your moral values and abandon my own? You will have to kill me to change my moral, social, political, and religious points of view. I'm raising my children with the same value system as are millions of other Americans despite Liberal, politically correct efforts to marginalize and silence us.

 

I don't hate gay people. I simple disagree with their choices in life. Most of the folks posting here seem to have a little hate in their hearts for people with Conservative / religious, principled points of view that don't approve of homosexuality. Like I said, I'm out of the military now and don't care what happens now. I wouldn't care if they required new recruits to be gay. ...I couldn't care less. It is their butts on the line and if they (the rest of the troops) are ok with it then more power to them. I spent 8 years defending this country, but I no longer think the country represents or even respects me, my family, or my values (social, economic, political, or religious). The Dept. of Homeland Security and Janet Napolitano think that white, gun owning, veterans represent more of a terrorist risk than a 30 y/o Pakistani who travels frequently to Pakistan to learn bomb making. The only group that it is acceptable to discriminate against or racially profile are white conservative males, ostensibly because white males have always had more advantages. Really? I came from a poor, blue collar, union family and worked my way up (against the odds) by earning everything I have ever achieved.

 

natetaylor calls me a homophobe. I'm not afraid of homosexuals. (for the record I didn't call anyone any names either) I just prefer not to associate with them. Sure, I know that I probably know some homosexuals who I have no idea are gay. The same is probably true when it comes to abortion or other moral or religious views. I'm just not going to knowingly be buddies with either group. That's my choice and most of you don't respect that choice, but then militantly demand that I respect/embrace your points of view or else you will denigrate, disparage and despise everything about me. That's ok with me. I'm not going to change what I believe just to make you or anyone else like me. In fact, I couldn't care less what you think of me.

 

You folks think you have all of the answers and people like me and other conservative Tea Party folks are living anachronism that have to be silenced at all costs. Good luck. See ya in Nov.

By the way Hemegroup...how many years did you serve in the military in order to develop such an enlightened and informed opinion on the issue? The only reason you feel so compelled to spew on a forum like this is because you feel like you did something more than being born in America to earn it right? I know that you wouldn't be so hypocritical as to publically question the moral character of the very people who provided you the right to do so in the first place..right?

I wasn't even responding to you. But now that you're here, let me just tell you that I doubt as many people (female or male) truly have such a blindingly compelling urge to look at you, in the shower or out.

You're doing nothing but using the words "moral" and "religious" to hide behind. Until you cut out shellfish from your diet and stop wearing clothes of mixed fabrics, etc, etc, you're nothing but a hypocrite who needs to hate people who are different than you.

You're the one that will have to meet the Christ after your death, if you make it that far. I can just hear you now ... "Lord, I know you said to love God and love your neighbor, but I know you didn't really mean homosexuals. I must know your Word better than you do. Oh and by the way, that stuff about shellfish and mixed fabrics, we all know that didn't hold as much meaning as men who lie with men. Sure, people tried to explain it to me, but I knew that I had the right answer and that justice would prevail in the end. Can I come in now?"

Good luck with that.

Moral? I think my definition is drastically different than yours. Morality to me refers to treating others how we would like to be treated, not harming others through our actions. Moral to me means not viewing others to be second-class citizens, much less second-class soldiers. My suggestion to you would be to watch the newly released Christian DVD, 'Lord Save Us From Our Followers". The narrator actually goes to a gay pride event and sets up a confession booth, where he apologizes to every gay person who enters, for the hate that has been dealt to them in the name of Christianity. It is quite a touching part of the film, and one which shows honor, dignity and compassion ... TRUE Christ-like qualities.

I don't hate gay people. I simple disagree with their choices in life.

That's where you lost me, Greg. If you are proceeding from the view point that homosexuality is a choice, then there really is nothing to debate here. If only those gays would just straighten out and choose to be less gay then they would be okay in your book? Are we back in the 50's?

Janet Napolitano should be fired immediately for gross incompetence!

Jennifer Knapp the Christian Musician just announced she was gay after a 8 year hiatus from music. I feel that she can no longer be labeled a "Christian musician", I do like her and ordered her new CD, but she cannot be a Christian singer if she is gay!!

Discuss....

<I>The OP should also consider that Commissioned Officers are expected to be above reproach in their conduct at all times, and it is the services that set the standards. Officers are expected to comply and enforce standards in the various services. Should one not be able to comply with the expectations , I suggest they seek other opportunities out of uniform to serve this country.</I>

 

Yes, CAdets, but isn't the current policy Don't Ask Don't Tell? They don't ask, I don't tell. It's my business. Why shouldn't I be afforded the same opportunities to serve my country and pay for my education?

"I am very discreet about my sexuality, and I consider it my personal business."

The connotation is the military has no business looking into your personal life. It's a view that is in conflict with one's being a service member. Military personnel are on duty 24/7 and subject to the military's rules and regulations 24/7. I recommend you Google Article(s) 133 & 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice before you or others take the stance that your "business" is none of the military's business. Any conduct which is in violation of those rules places you and all others at risk for adverse action to be taken. If you are saying that during your service you will not engage in homosexual conduct, speak of or in anyway communicate your sexual preference to others, you will be in full compliance , if not you are placing yourself at risk. Not judgemental just a statement of fact.

My God, how nauseating. I just threw up in my mouth a little.

 

You owe a great many people an apology, including the gay soldiers who have died fighting for your freedom. Not only those soldiers, but also the soldiers who have gay family members. As well as the family members who have gay loved ones in the armed forces.

 

Your conduct is reproachable, and I feel nothing but pity for you. Regardless, I would never let you touch a single member of my family.

Reglan, compazine, phenergan and reality will address your sx. I'm amazed that a simple statement of fact has this effect on you. Please cite the element of my post that attacked , demeaned anyone or reflects "reproachable" conduct?

There are about six incredibly conservative people who post with considerable frequency on these forums. Expect them all to stop in and make their fears of homosexuals known. Good to see Greg and CAdams already representing. Honestly, what makes you think a gay man is incapable of conducting himself professionally within the military? Do you think gays are just so sex crazed they might jump you in the shower? Grow up and stop fantasizing.

 

As to the OP: My best friend is a Navy pilot. I recently had a long conversation with him about his views on DADT and the realities of the policy in practice. He told me that there are two gay men in his unit who are fairly open. They are great pilots and no one discriminates against them. He said it might be different if they weren't officers and incredibly valuable to the military. I would imagine that as an Officer and a PA, you will also be very valuable to the Military. If my friend's experience is any indicator, you shouldn't have too rough of a time.

Expect them all to stop in and make their fears of homosexuals known. Good to see Greg and CAdams already representing.

Fears?????? I fear that there are many who believe the military is some sort of social experimentation laboratory with a lot of weapons. There are STANDARDS of conduct in the military that do not exist in the civilain world for a reason. The military is the most discriminatory organization in this country NO OLD PEOPLE, NO HANDICAPPED PEOPLE,NO FELONS, NO FAT PEOPLE ,NO MENTALLY CHALLENGED and the list goes on. Why you ask,I think Nate taylor has eloquently stated we need folks willing to pull the trigger and die together if the circumstances warrant! Anything that limits or inhibits this can't be allowed to happen. Reseach the term "unit cohesion" and then actually discuss your findings with a group of trigger pullers.Better, yet spend three years or more living in a rifle battalion to get an up close and "real" view of what those in the ranks feel. I only fear the degradation of our armed forces by those who have social agendas that are not intended to keep a well honed and ready force in the trenches. I represent and speak for no one but myself on this forum.