PhD?

[mikeSpa]

I know the new nurse practitioner starting 2015 are required to have their Doctorate of nurse practitioner. You guys think PA would ever get that doctorate degree in physician assistant studies?

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

It is doctor of nursing practice. The military already offers a Dsc for PAs with a residency, but they offer that mainly for promotion purposes.

[EMEDPA]

pa's are encouraged to have an ms degree as the terminal degree.

there are already options for pa's to get other doctorates postgrad if they so desire such as phd's, dhsc's, etc

I don't think pa's will ever be required to have a doctorate to practice.

[True Anomaly]

Seeing as your initial thread title is "PhD", and then ask about whether PA's will go towards a doctorate....those are two different things.

 

PhD is an academic doctorate, which anyone can acquire, whether they be MD/DO, PA or NP.

 

Degrees such as the DNP and the military's post-grad doctorate thing are CLINICAL doctorates. Not the same thing as a PhD.

 

And to echo the above, no I don't think we'll ever go to a clinical doctorate in the civilian world. As I've said before on this forum, "A doctorate in physician assistant studies. Think about how that sounds for a minute".

[EMEDPA]

"A doctorate in physician assistant studies. Think about how that sounds for a minute".

yup, would probably need to be a doctorate in physician associate studies.....:)

[physasst]

Seeing as your initial thread title is "PhD", and then ask about whether PA's will go towards a doctorate....those are two different things.

 

PhD is an academic doctorate, which anyone can acquire, whether they be MD/DO, PA or NP.

 

Degrees such as the DNP and the military's post-grad doctorate thing are CLINICAL doctorates. Not the same thing as a PhD.

 

And to echo the above, no I don't think we'll ever go to a clinical doctorate in the civilian world. As I've said before on this forum, "A doctorate in physician assistant studies. Think about how that sounds for a minute".

 

A DSc degree is a research degree, it is NOT a clinical doctorate....just for clarification.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Really, the DNP isn't a clinical doctorate either.

[primadonna22274]

I think my in-process DO qualifies as a clinical doctorate...yes? Cuz I AM NOT going back to school again! :)

[True Anomaly]

A DSc degree is a research degree, it is NOT a clinical doctorate....just for clarification.

 

My mistake- I didn't realize the Army's program was a DSc. Thanks

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Not really a clinical doctorate, and not a research doctorate. I think they refer to it as a "clinical practice doctorate". Whatever that means.

 

It means a license to print money.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

It was little tongue in cheek, but yes, the schools. The DNPs themselves provide the paper on the back of their capstone projects.

[Mainer]

The DNP is most certainly a "clinical degree", and does not qualify as an academic (research) degree. A doctorate suggests that the person is an authority or scholar in a particular subject. Many will argue that the "DNP" degree fails to create a student or graduate to be neither a clinical nor academic authority. This is generally the same issue with all clinical doctorates.

 

I love the article published in the Chronicle of Higher Education: A Clinical Look at Clinical Doctorates....worth reading.

I believe the link below will take you there....if not I believe you can Google the paper. The article has triggered a lot of discussion regarding the status (lots of criticism) and rigor of clinical doctorates in higher education.....with many papers that followed (also worth reading).

http://chronicle.com/article/A-Clinical-Look-at-Clinical/10213

 

Point being, a clinical doctorate is not something I would aspire or brag about and be a little embarrassing in the setting of a college of university, especially at a time when faculty and administration are debating the integrity of the degree (some even putting together data questioning if the degree even reaches the level of a masters’. Somehow, the MD always seems to be immune from these debates (which I don’t completely understand). Although PA's have experienced some degree creep, at least they don't award "clinical doctorates".

 

Perhaps it's all just academic theater.

[Contrarian]

... [brevity edit]...

Point being, a clinical doctorate is not something I would aspire or brag about and be a little embarrassing in the setting of a college of university, especially at a time when faculty and administration are debating the integrity of the degree (some even putting together data questioning if the degree even reaches the level of a masters’. Somehow, the MD always seems to be immune from these debates (which I don’t completely understand). Although PA's have experienced some degree creep, at least they don't award "clinical doctorates".

 

Perhaps it's all just academic theater.

 

Yep...!!!

Something that we have talked about here several times.

 

Traditionally... advanced degrees were ment to be an extention of prior learning and the garnering of in-depth knowledge in a particular subject. An example of this could be: Bachelors Degree in Psychology--> Masters Degree in Psychology--> PsyD or Phd in Psychology.

 

One couldn't show up to the University with a bachelors of business or accounting, do a yr of coursework then be granted a Masters in Psychology... then do 2 more years and be granted a Phd in Sociology.

 

Generally, If there was no prior learning... that student was granted another bachelors degree.

 

In the USA... One CAN get a bachelors degree in Music or History, enter a physician training program and be granted a doctorate 3 yrs later.

 

While there ARE prerequisites... the average matriculant into med school doesn't have prior degrees in medicine (unless they were PA-Cs or ARNPs prior). This has a bit to do with why pretty much EVERYWHERE else in the world (that count), Physicians are granted "Medical Bachelors" degrees and NOT "doctorate" degrees. Not so in the good ole US of A... some say that this was a part of the "supply/demand/increase the income" plan that Flexner laid out for the AMA.

 

Physician school and Physician Assistant school (both "medical school" but one is just much more difficult) is "trade school" and neither should be awarding "doctorate degrees."

[Mainer]

I thought of it as a clinical degree as well, but the lead agency calling for its implementation calls it something else.

 

The fact that it's an "agency" or professional organization indicates that it falls into the "clinical" rhelm. It doesn't really matter how they want it to be recognized.....

 

Accredited Universities oversee research degrees....no outside professional organization involved!

[Guest Paula]

I am currently in a PA masters degree completion program. Here are my courses: Health Science Epidemiology and Biostatistics, Research Methods and Literature Review, Medical Ethics and Health Care Policy, Health Care Delivery Systems, Evidence Based Medicine, and Masters Project I,II and III. Just for fun I googled the DNP degree and found a few programs who offer nearly the exact same courses for their Doctorate. So, could I call myself a DNPMPAS? (tongue in cheek). I will have more credits for my masters than what a DNP obtains for their doctorate!

[Mainer]

Actually, I take that back. I was mixing up "clinical doctorate" with "terminal degree".... A conversation I had on here a while back. It's still wierd that the AACN wants to refer to it as a clinical practice degree. Seems like there is a story to why they want to parse it so finely. Any thoughts on that position paper link I put up?

 

I didn't read the entire document.

But so far, it's been mind-numbing. It's simply an AANC wishlist...another smoke and mirror show.

I'm totally confused by the degree based nature of nursing.....which is in lou of competency based education used by most vocational fields.

The DNP is lumped into the catagory of "clinical degrees" or "practice degrees" or "insert your favorate rendition of the same thing ".

[Mainer]

Yep...!!!

Something that we have talked about here several times.

 

Traditionally... advanced degrees were ment to be an extention of prior learning and the garnering of in-depth knowledge in a particular subject. An example of this could be: Bachelors Degree in Psychology--> Masters Degree in Psychology--> PsyD or Phd in Psychology.

 

One couldn't show up to the University with a bachelors of business or accounting, do a yr of coursework then be granted a Masters in Psychology... then do 2 more years and be granted a Phd in Sociology.

 

Generally, If there was no prior learning... that student was granted another bachelors degree.

 

In the USA... One CAN get a bachelors degree in Music or History, enter a physician training program and be granted a doctorate 3 yrs later.

 

While there ARE prerequisites... the average matriculant into med school doesn't have prior degrees in medicine (unless they were PA-Cs or ARNPs prior). This has a bit to do with why pretty much EVERYWHERE else in the world (that count), Physicians are granted "Medical Bachelors" degrees and NOT "doctorate" degrees. Not so in the good ole US of A... some say that this was a part of the "supply/demand/increase the income" plan that Flexner laid out for the AMA.

 

Physician school and Physician Assistant school (both "medical school" but one is just much more difficult) is "trade school" and neither should be awarding "doctorate degrees."

 

Couldn't agree more!

If it's an entry level graduate degee, such as medical school, it's not real graduate education as a true scholar would appreciate.

Medical school is roughly a 130+/- credit bachelors level education.

 

I tend to agree with the notion that it's the field of study that should garner respect......as opposed to the degree.

[Contrarian]

The funny part about this is that after deciding to award themselves "Doctorate" degrees for obtaining what is really a second Bachelors degree... they then convinced everyone else on the healthcare team that any other 'doctorate' that wasn't a 'medical one" is less important and shouldn't be uttered/mentioned in the clinical setting.

 

So...

1. Award ourselves a "Doctorate" degree for completing a second Bachelors Degree.
   
2. Convince everyone that our second Bachelors Degree renamed a "Doctorate" is atleast equal to Research Doctorates.
   
3. Frown upon "Clinical Doctorates" and suppress the fact that our bachelors degree renamed a Doctorate is indeed the epitome of a "Clinical Doctorate."
   
4. "Jedi-Mind-Trick" the healthcare establishment and convince them that only OUR "Doctorate" degree should be publically recognized in ANY healthcare setting because none of the "clinical doctorates" are worthy... even though our second bachelors renamed a "Doctorate Degree" is indeed the epitome of a "Clinical Doctorate."
   
5. Mock and make it insulting for anyone to expect to be called "doctor" who hasn't completed a second bachelors degree remaned a Doctorate that is indeed the epitome of a "Clinical Doctorate." Regardless of the fact that they earned their just like we earned ours.
   

Umm... Yeah... it worked like a charm...:heheh: