PeteK777 Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Somewhat of a vent post. EM/ICU PA here. I've recently had some exposure to both NP grads and NP students of online nurse practitioner programs. Basic framework seems to be lots of papers, online discussion boards, 'readings' and clinicals where they follow an MD around (their words not mine). The knowledge deficit of both the students and the graduated providers (across multiple specialties) is nothing short of astounding and dangerous (i.e. hospitalist NP not aware of difference between metabolic acidosis/alkalosis, gave an alkalotic patient 2 amps of bicarb). This is not a knock at the NP profession, as I have many NP colleagues (who graduated from formal programs) who teach ME things on a near daily basis, but rather a knock on the online education model for clinical medicine. Lots of dunning-kruger & dangerous medicine going on. How is online education deemed safe..or legal? Anyone else have insight/experience with this? /end rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalPalm Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 It's absolutely amazing how much time is spent discussing NPs here LMAO. That NP sounds like an idiot. Any RN would know the difference between metabolic acidosis and alkalosis, as its taught in the undergraduate curriculum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 There's a lot of bashing of online programs on this board and, honestly, I think this comes more from fear than reasoned opposition: if all schools rely on traditional classroom learning, there's a very limited cap on how many seats they can offer each year. With online module-based learning, there's less of a limit. That's a scary prospect for tipping our supply/demand ratio in favor of employers. At least with PA programs there's still the limiting factor of clinically placing all the students. I think the problems you've encountered are not so much with the medium, but the execution. I honestly believe that for didactic learning, computer-based teaching has the potential to be superior to traditional class lectures, which are really not effective. The keyword here is "potential". I've taken online courses in undergrad from a three different institutions and they were all crap. For one, online learning still relies on lectures, which is a mystery to me. My medical terminology class relied on lectures: why? Why not give students electronic worksheets and flashcards, which are far more effective? Two, the lectures are clearly a "first draft". I would've thought that they'd be higher quality because the professor is making a lecture to be viewed by hundreds of students across several generations of classes, but instead the lectures suffer because the professors don't put any extra time and effort into them, it's their first go around with the lecture, and they've never been stopped by students or never seen quizzical faces staring back at them to let them know they're not explaining it well. Three, the discussion board assignments they use are time-consuming and teach very little. Certainly providers need hands-on experience with patients, and they need a little hands-on practice before that. But again, for the bulk of didactic the potential is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Somewhat of a vent post. EM/ICU PA here. I've recently had some exposure to both NP grads and NP students of online nurse practitioner programs. Basic framework seems to be lots of papers, online discussion boards, 'readings' and clinicals where they follow an MD around (their words not mine). The knowledge deficit of both the students and the graduated providers (across multiple specialties) is nothing short of astounding and dangerous (i.e. hospitalist NP not aware of difference between metabolic acidosis/alkalosis, gave an alkalotic patient 2 amps of bicarb). This is not a knock at the NP profession, as I have many NP colleagues (who graduated from formal programs) who teach ME things on a near daily basis, but rather a knock on the online education model for clinical medicine. Lots of dunning-kruger & dangerous medicine going on. How is online education deemed safe..or legal? Anyone else have insight/experience with this? /end rant Yale has an online PA program IIRC... Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthehorizen Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 This is senseless comparison. NP vs PA education? Which is better? It doesn't matter because even if our premise that NPs are inferior on the whole is true, they are still beating us every way possible. They are the preferred provider at the VA and now enjoy independent status. They have independent practice in 22 states. They can start their own businesses and work without the hassles and cost of physician taxation (ummm....supervision...collaboration). The NPs are running over us and we are trying to argue that we are superior. NOBODY IS LISTENING TO US. (sorry for the caps). State legislators don't listen. AAPA doesn't listen. NCCPA doesn't listen. The only objective that every PA should have is how we will win independent practice. Your arguments of superiority might have some weight IF all of us (MD, DO, NP, PA) could take the USMLE steps 1, 2 and 3 and the ABIM Board Exam.We could compare our scores to see how PAs stack up against MDs, DOs and NPs. I'm still not sure the public would care. Measuring health outcomes is difficult so the real winning plan is marketing and political strategy. It has nothing to do with competence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteK777 Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 This is senseless comparison. NP vs PA education? Which is better? It doesn't matter because even if our premise that NPs are inferior on the whole is true, they are still beating us every way possible. They are the preferred provider at the VA and now enjoy independent status. They have independent practice in 22 states. They can start their own businesses and work without the hassles and cost of physician taxation (ummm....supervision...collaboration). The NPs are running over us and we are trying to argue that we are superior. NOBODY IS LISTENING TO US. (sorry for the caps). State legislators don't listen. AAPA doesn't listen. NCCPA doesn't listen. The only objective that every PA should have is how we will win independent practice. Your arguments of superiority might have some weight IF all of us (MD, DO, NP, PA) could take the USMLE steps 1, 2 and 3 and the ABIM Board Exam.We could compare our scores to see how PAs stack up against MDs, DOs and NPs. I'm still not sure the public would care. Measuring health outcomes is difficult so the real winning plan is marketing and political strategy. It has nothing to do with competence. I don't think it's senseless. And I'm not looking to 'beat' an NP in any avenue or claim/achieve superiority. I'm just asking if anyone has had a similar experience with online NP grads or if I am seeing an anomaly from a handful of local programs. Side note - Where are you working? I personally am quite happy with my role, autonomy and the degree to which people are listening to me without the need for additional marketing and politics. Lots of desire for more autonomy and independent practice among our NP/PA colleagues, but I think this is short-sighted. Not going to get free autonomy without requiring doctorate, specialization and/or residency (which, GASP, I actually agree with). More political sway/support from AAPA/NCCPA? Sure, I'm all for it. But I'm not miserable without it. This is the career I signed up for. If you don't like your autonomy/respect/whatever, then make a change! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 The silly crap they teach in the classroom will translate perfectly well to teaching silly crap online. Pick up a nursing textbook and look through it some time. It will blow your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marinejiujitsu Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 It's absolutely amazing how much time is spent discussing NPs here LMAO. That NP sounds like an idiot. Any RN would know the difference between metabolic acidosis and alkalosis, as its taught in the undergraduate curriculum. Any? You can find any (input credentials) that don't. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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